Harrogate line improvements

As part of the 'Flaxby Park' development 'Goldsborough Railway Station' is to reopen!

Historic railway station to open as park and ride / Yorkshire Post / Wednesday 09 January 2019
Read more at: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...nH5F82mHfWfYm_chif9VOTqqZoD9HusJsCyhfQWt7VqQg

It *could* reopen might be more accurate, there's a long way to go.

Not too sure about the park bit

I realized later its only early stages, but it does seem the developer buying the station house is keen as opposed to this being a load of bull to trying and gain support for planning.

It seems lately that this line in between Harrogate and York is getting a lot of development. Read not so long ago about development around Cattal.

Outline plans have been submitted for 4000 homes around Cattal.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/our...roximately-4-000-new-homes-be-built-1-9524127
Yorkshire Post / Harrogate New Settlement: Where could approximately 4,000 new homes be built? / Monday 7th January 2019

Im all for developments around stations, although I think the size of them are questionable.

Does anybody know where the double tracking of this line is at?

Halifaxlad said:

I realized later its only early stages, but it does seem the developer buying the station house is keen as opposed to this being a load of bull to trying and gain support for planning.

It seems lately that this line in between Harrogate and York is getting a lot of development. Read not so long ago about development around Cattal.

Outline plans have been submitted for 4000 homes around Cattal.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/our...roximately-4-000-new-homes-be-built-1-9524127
Yorkshire Post / Harrogate New Settlement: Where could approximately 4,000 new homes be built? / Monday 7th January 2019

Im all for developments around stations, although I think the size of them are questionable.

Does anybody know where the double tracking of this line is at?

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Single track between Knaresborough and Cattal and between Hammerton and Poppleton at the moment although NYCC and the Local Enterprise Partnership have raised their share of the money £11m/£3m toward doubling Knaresborough-Cattal starting before Easter 2019 to be able to run two trains an hour to York by extending Leeds-Knaresborough trains. Trains are timed to cross on the short length of double track between Cattal and Hammerton but doesn't always work as the train from Leeds is invariably late arriving at Cattal off the single section.

Doubling should eliminate this for good.

The developers are in for a shock. I think they have only budgeted for a single platform at Goldsborough. By the time they get round to it it will be double track and will need another platform and footbridge.

Lets hope NR have sorted out train regulation at Skelton Junction soon because nearly every train I use off the loop is held here for up to 10 minutes causing missed connections.

If ever Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was restored, the remainder would have to be doubled as it would be used as a diversion for the ECML at times of emergency.

Ah the dark art of regulation, everyone notices when it doesn't work out and there is nothing more frustrating than waiting for the little lights to move when you have pulled off with a tight margin.
Anyway, one that did work last night out of York at 19.19 was 9E19 out of Pl10 on time at and the 8 Late 2C69 out of Pl8 with the latter running on the up line to Skelton Junction where it crossed over to Poppleton with the tail lights of 9E17 in the distance.
It does work sometimes.

deltic08 said:

Single track between Knaresborough and Cattal and between Hammerton and Poppleton at the moment although NYCC and the Local Enterprise Partnership have raised their share of the money £11m/£3m toward doubling Knaresborough-Cattal starting before Easter 2019 to be able to run two trains an hour to York by extending Leeds-Knaresborough trains. Trains are timed to cross on the short length of double track between Cattal and Hammerton but doesn't always work as the train from Leeds is invariably late arriving at Cattal off the single section.

Doubling should eliminate this for good.

The developers are in for a shock. I think they have only budgeted for a single platform at Goldsborough. By the time they get round to it it will be double track and will need another platform and footbridge.

Lets hope NR have sorted out train regulation at Skelton Junction soon because nearly every train I use off the loop is held here for up to 10 minutes causing missed connections.

If ever Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was restored, the remainder would have to be doubled as it would be used as a diversion for the ECML at times of emergency.

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With doubling to Cattal, associated re-signalling, and an aspiration to electrify the route; can I ask what the proposal is for dealing with the level crossing at Starbeck and the interface with the A59? Doubtless traffic volumes have not declined since I lived in the town in 1997.

Muenchener said:

With doubling to Cattal, associated re-signalling, and an aspiration to electrify the route; can I ask what the proposal is for dealing with the level crossing at Starbeck and the interface with the A59? Doubtless traffic volumes have not declined since I lived in the town in 1997.

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No plans at the moment but I have heard mutterings at County Hall that the line will be sunk 16 feet into a trench on the same alignment with bridge over but how long will that take as no service can run east of Harrogate whilst being done, Starbeck station will have to be lowered too and the 1 in 80 climb up to Harrogate will be even steeper although the climb up from Knaresborough will be shallower.

The A59 will also be closed for a period whilst a bridge is built.

I had always wondered how they would deal with that level crossing in starbeck, though a massive trench seems a touch ludicrous. You would have to do it using concrete box sections as i presume you wouldnt have space for a normal cutting.

This route is crying out for the double tracking the entire way and some sorting out of the track on the junction to the ECML as it is a real delay snowballer.

I don’t know the current situation at all well but is there any opportunity for running a single line parallel to but independent from the ECML from the junction to York station?

deltic08 said:

No plans at the moment but I have heard mutterings at County Hall that the line will be sunk 16 feet into a trench on the same alignment with bridge over but how long will that take as no service can run east of Harrogate whilst being done, Starbeck station will have to be lowered too and the 1 in 80 climb up to Harrogate will be even steeper although the climb up from Knaresborough will be shallower.

The A59 will also be closed for a period whilst a bridge is built.

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Interesting solution. That project should challenge NR and subsequent subcontractors! It will certainly take some managing given the traffic volumes on the A59 and the importance of the road as a connector between East and West.

As to a third line from Skelton to the station, tricky with at least one underbridge and quite a bit of infrastructure around but not impossible.

This always brings us back to the past suggestion that trains from Harrogate should avoid the delays waiting for paths at Skelton junction by being routed up the avoiding line then entering the south of the station via a new connecting curve. Railtrack/Network Rail's building work would seem to have scuppered this. However I wonder if a single curve could still be squeezed in-if too tight for trains then possibly ok for some form of tram-train? Thus you could terminate the Leeds service at Harrogate and run tram trains Harrogate to York and achieve lower costs eg simple crossing of the A59 at Starbeck and no need for station footbridges. Alternatively turn some Leeds trains round at Knaresborough but still run tram train Harrogate-York.

BantamMenace said:

I don’t know the current situation at all well but is there any opportunity for running a single line parallel to but independent from the ECML from the junction to York station?

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There is an abandoned line on the west side of the mainline formation nearly all the way from Skelton Jnc to the railway museum except for Leeman Road where a bridge is needed and the extension to Siemans Depot has reduced the width for a dedicated track. No forward planning at all and the depot extension has killed off an obvious solution to an ever growing problem to Skelton Junction congestion.

NO to tram trains on this route thank you Grumpy. It has already been looked at in 2004/5 and rejected. There aren't any station footbridges on the Harrogate loop.

yoyothehobo said:

I had always wondered how they would deal with that level crossing in starbeck, though a massive trench seems a touch ludicrous. You would have to do it using concrete box sections as i presume you wouldnt have space for a normal cutting.

This route is crying out for the double tracking the entire way and some sorting out of the track on the junction to the ECML as it is a real delay snowballer.

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Yes but only where the level crossing replacement bridge is. Unnecessary elsewhere as the track would only be lowered not tunnelled.

Doubling would be best but the A59 replacement bridge just west of Poppleton built after the line was singled was built to single track width despite protests. The Highways Agency did promise to rebuild at their expense if double track was ever needed.

deltic08 said:

Single track between Knaresborough and Cattal and between Hammerton and Poppleton at the moment although NYCC and the Local Enterprise Partnership have raised their share of the money £11m/£3m toward doubling Knaresborough-Cattal starting before Easter 2019 to be able to run two trains an hour to York by extending Leeds-Knaresborough trains. Trains are timed to cross on the short length of double track between Cattal and Hammerton but doesn't always work as the train from Leeds is invariably late arriving at Cattal off the single section.

Doubling should eliminate this for good.

The developers are in for a shock. I think they have only budgeted for a single platform at Goldsborough. By the time they get round to it it will be double track and will need another platform and footbridge.

Lets hope NR have sorted out train regulation at Skelton Junction soon because nearly every train I use off the loop is held here for up to 10 minutes causing missed connections.

If ever Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton was restored, the remainder would have to be doubled as it would be used as a diversion for the ECML at times of emergency.

Click to expand...

Is this bit correct? I was under the impression that they'd decided not to double track and spend all the money on improved signals/points between Knaresborough and Poppleton. Apparently that will allow them to achieve 2tph between York and Harrogate. If they have dropped double tracking it's very disappointing that they've decided to half ass it on the cheap rather than properly solve the bottleneck.

I noticed they seem to be ploughing ahead with the LBA station as well. I timed how long it took from exiting Bramhope Tunnel to stopping in Horsforth this morning, 1 minute 40 seconds. Surely they're not planning on having trains stop at both stations. It's all fields on the LBA side as well, is it really more feasible to build a brand new station than it is to add P&R facilities and a shuttle bus route to Horsforth station?

numero uno said:

Is this bit correct? I was under the impression that they'd decided not to double track and spend all the money on improved signals/points between Knaresborough and Poppleton. Apparently that will allow them to achieve 2tph between York and Harrogate. If they have dropped double tracking it's very disappointing that they've decided to half ass it on the cheap rather than properly solve the bottleneck.

I noticed they seem to be ploughing ahead with the LBA station as well. I timed how long it took from exiting Bramhope Tunnel to stopping in Horsforth this morning, 1 minute 40 seconds. Surely they're not planning on having trains stop at both stations. It's all fields on the LBA side as well, is it really more feasible to build a brand new station than it is to add P&R facilities and a shuttle bus route to Horsforth station?

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Problem is some of the stakeholders in this area. They oppose any development. Whilst it would be completely logical to expand Horsforth, the money spent fighting everyone to buy the DIY store and the land for a extended road and car park would be far more expensive than this proposal. I am concerned that everywhere will lose out with this proposal but you could say the same about all of the proposed railway stations around Leeds which feel like they are being built virtually on top of existing other stations.

numero uno said:

Is this bit correct? I was under the impression that they'd decided not to double track and spend all the money on improved signals/points between Knaresborough and Poppleton. Apparently that will allow them to achieve 2tph between York and Harrogate. If they have dropped double tracking it's very disappointing that they've decided to half ass it on the cheap rather than properly solve the bottleneck.

I noticed they seem to be ploughing ahead with the LBA station as well. I timed how long it took from exiting Bramhope Tunnel to stopping in Horsforth this morning, 1 minute 40 seconds. Surely they're not planning on having trains stop at both stations. It's all fields on the LBA side as well, is it really more feasible to build a brand new station than it is to add P&R facilities and a shuttle bus route to Horsforth station?

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Barking mad isn't it to have two stations so close and increasing journey time to Harrogate which is too long now at 38 minutes to travel 18 miles. That is 28mph average, less than 40 tears ago.

Is it time to rethink the location of stations on the line?
Put them where the demand is rather than because they have always been in that location.

The Harrogate line is lucky that its competition is horribly congested roads.

Providing trains run to time, then a 30 min frequency between Knaresborough and York is already possible despite the single line. Currently in the daytime there are two an hour from Leeds to Knaresborough and return, one of which terminates/starts there - this could fit in the gap as in the below example (extra train in bold):

KNA 10.15 10.45 11.15
CTL 10.23 10.53 11.23
HMM 10.27 10.57 11.27
POP 10.35 11.05 11.35
YRK 10.46 11.16 11.46

YRK 10.11 10.41 11.11
POP 10.16 10.46 11.16
HMM 10.24 10.54 11.24
CTL 10.27 10.57 11.27
KNA 10.35 11.05 11.35

The issue is probably more that it puts the line up to full capacity and doesn't allow for any contingency, charters etc (a bit like the TPE route with its 6 trains per hour!). Also, whether there is a path from Skelton is an issue. So in my mind, capacity around York and unreliability are probably just as much a problem as the single line. Back in the 1980s, it was suggested that Harrogate line trains could avoid crossing the Skelton bottleneck by them using the freight line and then round the (now removed) curve where the ROC is to a new platform adjacent to platform 16 (as was). Clearly that isn't possible now!

With regard to the station for Leeds Bradford Airport, the idea of a new station served by existing trains is ill-thought out. They are already busy without airport travellers and would slow down services even further - as deltic08 points out, the trains already take longer now than they did years back (largely due to the opening of Burley Park & Hornbeam Park). Having checked the 1979 timetable, it was 34 mins Harrogate-Leeds back then. If they want to go down the road of a station with a bus shuttle for the mile to the airport, a far better concept in my mind would be to build a siding next to the existing line, and operate a separate dedicated Leeds-LBA Parkway service every 30 mins (perhaps calling Horsforth only, thereby giving it a service every 15 mins).

theblackwatch said:

Providing trains run to time, then a 30 min frequency between Knaresborough and York is already possible despite the single line. Currently in the daytime there are two an hour from Leeds to Knaresborough and return, one of which terminates/starts there - this could fit in the gap as in the below example (extra train in bold):

KNA 10.15 10.45 11.15
CTL 10.23 10.53 11.23
HMM 10.27 10.57 11.27
POP 10.35 11.05 11.35
YRK 10.46 11.16 11.46

YRK 10.11 10.41 11.11
POP 10.16 10.46 11.16
HMM 10.24 10.54 11.24
CTL 10.27 10.57 11.27
KNA 10.35 11.05 11.35

The issue is probably more that it puts the line up to full capacity and doesn't allow for any contingency, charters etc (a bit like the TPE route with its 6 trains per hour!). Also, whether there is a path from Skelton is an issue. So in my mind, capacity around York and unreliability are probably just as much a problem as the single line. Back in the 1980s, it was suggested that Harrogate line trains could avoid crossing the Skelton bottleneck by them using the freight line and then round the (now removed) curve where the ROC is to a new platform adjacent to platform 16 (as was). Clearly that isn't possible now!

With regard to the station for Leeds Bradford Airport, the idea of a new station served by existing trains is ill-thought out. They are already busy without airport travellers and would slow down services even further - as deltic08 points out, the trains already take longer now than they did years back (largely due to the opening of Burley Park & Hornbeam Park). Having checked the 1979 timetable, it was 34 mins Harrogate-Leeds back then. If they want to go down the road of a station with a bus shuttle for the mile to the airport, a far better concept in my mind would be to build a siding next to the existing line, and operate a separate dedicated Leeds-LBA Parkway service every 30 mins (perhaps calling Horsforth only, thereby giving it a service every 15 mins).

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Maybe they could move the turnback they installed at Horsforth that I think has ended up being a complete waste of money?

To be fair I don't think there is any space for a siding due to steep embankments but might be wrong.

modernrail said:

Maybe they could move the turnback they installed at Horsforth that I think has ended up being a complete waste of money?

To be fair I don't think there is any space for a siding due to steep embankments but might be wrong.

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You are absolutely right about the embankments, but I'm assuming they will be cutting them out for the station anyway...so why not do it for an extra siding instead. If it's a turnback station, it only needs to be on one side as well.

My concern with using the turnback is that they lead to virtually empty airport trains rattling into Leeds railway station or a constrained Horsforth site requiring more stopping time as an already busy station takes on more passengers.

The route is seeing an upgrade to 4tph and is there much that would hold back 5 or 6tph with the new platform in Leeds station.

Where the platforms are planned there isn't an embankment. They are stone retaining walls higher than the roof of a train and what's more are listed. Building even one platform each side would entail destroying the retaining walls and having to remove thousands of tons of earth and possibly rock as the land rises up quickly.

Then there is access to these platforms. Lifts would be essential as the depth is great. Car parks would be at very sloping angles if built nearby, impossible to access in winter weather. Flatter ground available nearer airport but too far to walk to station. If bus transfer is necessary then might as well use Horsforth station with bus transfer from there with widened road to airport.

One possibility is extend the turnback siding at Horsforth to a platform on the slope above the proposed station. That would involve only a slight uphill gradient of 1 in 80 but would need a lot of excavation to level the site and still need bus transfer up to airport and car parks. The road would be very steep and hazardous in winter. Electrify from Leeds with shuttle service.

Second possibility is reinstate Arthington South Junction with a spur to Pool-in-Wharfedale with single platform and car park for commuters and a bus link to the airport. This would allow a shuttle to Leeds stopping at all stations. Preferably extend electrification to here for rapid acceleration from stops. Harrogate trains could then run fast to/from Horsforth to Leeds in less than ten minutes.

Third and most sensible would be extend Horsforth turnback siding to the airport on a gradient of about 1 in 35 and sub surface station as the last half mile to airport is too steep. Again electrify from Leeds for rapid acceleration from stops. This would be the most expensive option but better than spending £30m for a station in the wrong place.

It is only being considered because of lobbying from the airport directors and Harrogate Chamber of Commerce, neither of which are willing to contribute any cash. The money is coming from Leeds cancelled trolley bus fund.

I think Harrogate Chamber should mind there own business as this proposal is outside their District but I am anti Harrogate Chamber as they are actively against the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton reinstatement that is almost wholly within their District and would benefit Harrogate very much with a better through service to the North.

Doubling Knaresborough to Cattal would introduce resilience to the Harrogate-York route where arrival at Skelton Junction on time is critical on such a busy ECML. I have been on trains where we have waited up to ten minutes to be let onto the mainline. It makes the Harrogate-York journey time longer than necessary because of a chunk of added recovery time added between Poppleton and York. Compare journey times with trains York to Poppleton.

It has already been mentioned about the single line from Skelton Junction as far as the railway museum/station throat that could be reinstated as a dedicated Harrogate line without needing to be let onto or across the fast lines. It was taken up during track remodelling in 1988 prior to electrification.

Quite a few of the Orange Army out and about in Harrogate today, from what I saw general strimming and some work on the point rodding further towards Knaresborough.

If the managers from the old BR saw that photo they would weep. What a neglected mess.

Halifaxlad said:

Quite a few of the Orange Army out and about in Harrogate today, from what I saw general strimming and some work on the point rodding further towards Knaresborough.
View attachment 64666

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There is a full length siding under there somewhere used to stable HSTs when first introduced on the ECML in 1979 on Kings Cross- Harrogate-Kings Cross services. Later a shore supply was installed in platform 3 and they were stabled there instead.

Bear in mind trains to Leeds and Knaresborough/York were only hourly in 1979 and mainly went from platform 1 in both directions. Now they are 3 and 2 trains per hour respectively and both platforms used.

They are perhaps preparing for IET services to Harrogate in Dec 2019 when 7 per day are planned.

deltic08 said:

There is a full length siding under there somewhere used to stable HSTs when first introduced on the ECML in 1979 on Kings Cross- Harrogate-Kings Cross services. Later a shore supply was installed in platform 3 and they were stabled there instead.

Bear in mind trains to Leeds and Knaresborough/York were only hourly in 1979 and mainly went from platform 1 in both directions. Now they are 3 and 2 trains per hour respectively and both platforms used.

They are perhaps preparing for IET services to Harrogate in Dec 2019 when 7 per day are planned.

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I saw the buffet stop on my way back from Knaresborough you couldn't tell if it was still connected to track it had that much of a bush surrounding it. If they are reinstating it I'm pleased but suprised considering I though they were on about reinstating Dragon Junction as a turnback siding.

The Harrogate Advertiser reports how a new Cross over is to be installed at Harrogate before the end of 2020.

https://www.harrogateadvertiser.co....it-rail-station-infrastructure-problem-136875

"Harrogate's fab new Azuma hit by rail infrastructure problem" Friday 17th January 2020.