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The BBC - is it worth fighting for?

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radamfi

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The BBC is more important than ever since ITV and non-BBC radio have lost much of their public service obligations. ITV stood for "Independent Television" when created in 1955 and similarly non-BBC radio was called ILR (Independent Local Radio). Note the deliberate use of the word "independent". ILR was "independent radio", not "commercial radio", which was an important distinction. Even though these organisations were funded by advertising, they had (and ITV still has to some extent) significant public service obligations. Particularly in the 70s and 80s, ITV franchisees arguably covered regional TV news and events better than the BBC. Until about 1990, ILR stations had to have comprehensive news departments and provide a wide range of programming, not just pop music.

Regional ITV was massacred in the early 2000s by Granada and Carlton, ultimately leading to the merging of most ITV franchises into ITV plc. Most ITV regional news programmes cover a larger region than before, and other regional programming has virtually ceased. Independent radio has become fully commercial with previously local stations now joined together to create quasi-national networks such as Heart and Capital, leaving proper local radio to the BBC.
 
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Mutant Lemming

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radamfi said:
The BBC is more important than ever since ITV and non-BBC radio have lost much of their public service obligations. ITV stood for "Independent Television" when created in 1955 and similarly non-BBC radio was called ILR (Independent Local Radio). Note the deliberate use of the word "independent". ILR was "independent radio", not "commercial radio", which was an important distinction. Even though these organisations were funded by advertising, they had (and ITV still has to some extent) significant public service obligations. Particularly in the 70s and 80s, ITV franchisees arguably covered regional TV news and events better than the BBC. Until about 1990, ILR stations had to have comprehensive news departments and provide a wide range of programming, not just pop music.

Regional ITV was massacred in the early 2000s by Granada and Carlton, ultimately leading to the merging of most ITV franchises into ITV plc. Most ITV regional news programmes cover a larger region than before, and other regional programming has virtually ceased. Independent radio has become fully commercial with previously local stations now joined together to create quasi-national networks such as Heart and Capital, leaving proper local radio to the BBC.
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Another notable change is the steady increase of the amount of ads per hour. I believe the maximum is now 12 mins per hour but this does not include self or cross channel promotion of programmes which can easily push advertising of one form or another to over a quarter of a channel's output - 25% of your viewing consisting of advertising.
 
Strat-tastic

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I don't buy this argument that everyone thinking the BBC is biased proves that they are not. It is a clever-sounding way of attempting to prove the point and shut down debate yet I believe it is illogical.

What if I were to create a poll here asking is the BBC biased. If 0% say yes, then they are not. If 100% says yes then, according to this logic, they also are not. How much % is required?
 
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AM9

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Strat-tastic said:
I don't buy this argument that everyone thinking the BBC is biased proves that they are not. It is a clever-sounding way of attempting to prove the point and shut down debate yet I believe it is illogical.

What if I were to create a poll here asking is the BBC biased. If 0% say yes, then they are not. If 100% says yes then, according to this logic, they also are not. How much % is required?
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Then to prove your point, why not start a poll and ask for votes on whether the BBC is pro- or anti-EU, or left-leaning vs right-leaning? It's only a straw poll amongst a self-selected group of people predominately established to support a niche interest/hobby, but it is more representative than sniping at somebody else's view that people tend to complain only when the BBC doesn't seem to present a view that doesn't align with their owwn.
 
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edwin_m

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Strat-tastic said:
I don't buy this argument that everyone thinking the BBC is biased proves that they are not. It is a clever-sounding way of attempting to prove the point and shut down debate yet I believe it is illogical.

What if I were to create a poll here asking is the BBC biased. If 0% say yes, then they are not. If 100% says yes then, according to this logic, they also are not. How much % is required?
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But if you take that away then you are left with someone's subjective opinion about whether there is bias or not. Effectively you're just suggesting we should all believe it is biased because you say so. Perhaps you could enlighten the debate with some examples of alleged bias?
 
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radamfi

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BBC bias rules are so strict that some people find BBC presenters not taking sides quite dull and so turn to commercial speech stations such as LBC and talkRADIO, although they still have regulations to abide by. Julia Hartley-Brewer and James O'Brien express their opinions very forcefully and there is no doubt as to where their bread is buttered. This is only allowed on British radio because opposing views from the listeners and other contributors are permitted. Nicky Campbell, on the other hand, is unable to state his views in the same way.

In the US presenters can do a three hour monologue if they wish and stations openly admit to being "conservative talk".

Incidentally, news on ITV is similarly regulated as the BBC but rarely gets criticised.
 
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radamfi

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Mutant Lemming said:
Another notable change is the steady increase of the amount of ads per hour. I believe the maximum is now 12 mins per hour but this does not include self or cross channel promotion of programmes which can easily push advertising of one form or another to over a quarter of a channel's output - 25% of your viewing consisting of advertising.
Click to expand...

On commercial radio there is now unlimited advertising allowed, whereas the limit was 9 minutes per hour during the ILR days. On TV channels such as ITV2 and E4, they buy a lot of imported programming, mostly from the US. A typical "one hour" show in the US will last about 42 minutes, so UK channels pad the rest of the hour with 6 minutes of TV trailers.
 
yorksrob

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We need the BBC to have TV and radio without commercials (if nothing else).
 
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richa2002 said:
"because they see anything offering a balanced view as a threat." This is where your argument falls down and why the BBC is under threat. The BBC really isn't balanced. It is overwhelming stuffed with left-wing liberals and that is reflected in the content, no matter how much they try to give the illusion of balance.

The BBC 30 years ago was definitely worth fighting for. Maybe even 10/15 years ago. Sadly, it isn't now, and they only have themselves to blame.
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This reminds me somewhat of a conversation I had not so long since with a Brexit supporting member of my family:

Relative: "The left wing liberal BBC are against Brexit!"
Me: "Why do you think that?"
Relative: "Because they never allow pro-Brexit politicians on."
Me: "Nigel Farage has had more air time on the BBC than most other politicians."
Relative: "Well they have to don't they?"
Me: "Why?"
Relative: "Because they need to pretend they are balanced!"
Me: "But by allowing Farage air time they are balancing the debate surely?"
Relative: "Not really, because the BBC are anti-Brexit..."

And so on. As someone up-thread said, all sides of the political spectrum say the BBC does not properly represent them. I take this to mean that they don't offer enough bias-confirmation to any one side, meaning that they are fairly balanced.
 
DarloRich

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Bantamzen said:
And so on. As someone up-thread said, all sides of the political spectrum say the BBC does not properly represent them. I take this to mean that they don't offer enough bias-confirmation to any one side, meaning that they are fairly balanced.
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agreed! The bias confirmation bit is important. People only want to hear their views represented.
 
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Putting any notion of bias aside (as the BBC is more than just the News and Question Time), I am trying to think of current programmes/dramas etc... that I would actively watch on the BBC and I am struggling. Would anyone like to make suggestions for me please? Please don't say Pointless as that bores the hell out of me and I immediately turn over and look for The Chase

As far as Radio is concerned, Radio 2 has been a lot better and more enjoyable since the recent reshuffle although I only ever get chance to listen to Zoe Ball, Steve Wright, and Sara Cox as it's usually on in the car
 
cactustwirly

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Geezertronic said:
Putting any notion of bias aside (as the BBC is more than just the News and Question Time), I am trying to think of current programmes/dramas etc... that I would actively watch on the BBC and I am struggling. Would anyone like to make suggestions for me please? Please don't say Pointless as that bores the hell out of me and I immediately turn over and look for The Chase

As far as Radio is concerned, Radio 2 has been a lot better and more enjoyable since the recent reshuffle although I only ever get chance to listen to Zoe Ball, Steve Wright, and Sara Cox as it's usually on in the car
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The BBC make very good history and documentary programmes, especially those on BBC Four

But as for Sports, the best channel by far is Sky (although it's expensive)
 
DynamicSpirit

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EM2 said:
Except the BBC isn't just TV.
Local radio, with (amongst many other things) ball-by-ball county cricket commentary, and live football commentary.
National radio, that appeals to pretty much every demographic one way or another.
A huge website.
The BBC Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, BBC Concert Orchestra, the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra, the BBC Singers, the BBC National Orchestra and Chorus of Wales, the BBC Big Band, the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra.
Promotion of young classical singers and musicians through televised competitions.
Massive music festivals - The Proms and Proms In The Park, the Radio 1 Big Weekends, the 6 Music Electric Proms.
Promoting participation in sport, with things like the FA People's Cup.
Leading on development of digital content (like Ceefax and Red Button).
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Exactly. Aside from the worthwhile news service, the BBC makes a huge contribution to UK culture. It's the kind of stuff that's hard to quantify, but intuitively, I'd expect that benefit to our society of having the BBC would be worth far more than the organisation costs.

On the subject of news.. I'd argue that having a source of news that is free to all, but factual and largely even-handed, is vital to the functioning of any democracy, and the BBC plays a crucial role there. In this regard, I can't help wondering if the existence of the BBC and the availability of BBC news might be a big part of why extremism in the UK has tended to be a much smaller problem than in many other countries. Then there's the BBC World service, which I believe in some parts of the World can be the only source of balanced news - countering the voices of extremists and various Government propaganda machines. Although it's only conjecture, I'd strongly suspect that the World is a rather safer place thanks to the BBC World Service than it would otherwise have been.

Overall, in answer to the OP, yes, I'd definitely fight for the BBC to continue.
 
DynamicSpirit

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Strat-tastic said:
I don't buy this argument that everyone thinking the BBC is biased proves that they are not. It is a clever-sounding way of attempting to prove the point and shut down debate yet I believe it is illogical.

What if I were to create a poll here asking is the BBC biased. If 0% say yes, then they are not. If 100% says yes then, according to this logic, they also are not. How much % is required?
Click to expand...

Of course, everyone thinking that the BBC is biased against them doesn't prove the BBC isn't biased. But the fact that people of all political persuasions seem equally inclined to believe that the BBC is biased against their point of view certainly gives some evidence that the the BBC is being even-handed.

In my experience, most people - on seeing something that supports their own viewpoint - tend to assume what they are seeing is balanced and fair. And many people - on seeing something that challenges their own viewpoint, will tend to presume bias rather than think that their viewpoint might be mistaken. Because of that, you'd expect that a news source that is being even-handed would have people of all political persuasions incorrectly thinking that it is biased against them... which is exactly what you see happen with the BBC! On the other hand, if the BBC was actually biased, you'd expect to see many more evidence-based complaints about it from whichever side it is biased against. To my knowledge that isn't the case. Hence the argument that this all gives strong evidence that the BBC is not significantly biased.
 
DynamicSpirit

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Mutant Lemming said:
Another notable change is the steady increase of the amount of ads per hour. I believe the maximum is now 12 mins per hour but this does not include self or cross channel promotion of programmes which can easily push advertising of one form or another to over a quarter of a channel's output - 25% of your viewing consisting of advertising.
Click to expand...

On the subject of ads, one of the things that always astonishes me is the way that with the non-freeview channels, you actually have to pay a subscription to be able to watch them... and then you STILL get loads of adverts! I do sometimes think there ought to be some kind of good practice guideline where, if a company is charging you for content, it should therefore be ad-free.

Even though I have access to numerous pay-to-view channels (they come with my Internet package) I still rarely watch any tv other than BBC, just because I find adverts so annoying!
 
yorksrob

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I just get the feeling that Radio 2 is trying to be too trendy at times. If we were that interested in the latest pop music, we'd be listening to Radio 1.
 
yorksrob

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DynamicSpirit said:
On the subject of ads, one of the things that always astonishes me is the way that with the non-freeview channels, you actually have to pay a subscription to be able to watch them... and then you STILL get loads of adverts! I do sometimes think there ought to be some kind of good practice guideline where, if a company is charging you for content, it should therefore be ad-free.
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Yes, this gets me agitated too.
 
scotrail158713

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Geezertronic said:
Putting any notion of bias aside (as the BBC is more than just the News and Question Time), I am trying to think of current programmes/dramas etc... that I would actively watch on the BBC and I am struggling. Would anyone like to make suggestions for me please?
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I really enjoyed Line of Duty. I only discovered it in April but have now watched series 1-5. You have to watch it from the start of series 1 though - I'm not sure if the 1st series is on iPlayer anymore though, if not it’s on Netflix.
Shetland was also really good although I’m not sure if that was UK wide, or if it was just BBC Scotland.

cactustwirly said:
What about Mock the Week or Have I got News for You?
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I find Mock the Week is inconsistent - some episodes are brilliant but some aren’t funny in the slightest. (Milton Jones or James Acaster are my favourites :D)
 
underbank

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yorksrob said:
I just get the feeling that Radio 2 is trying to be too trendy at times. If we were that interested in the latest pop music, we'd be listening to Radio 1.
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I always listened to our local independent radio station, but they were taken over by Heart and I now hate what they've done to it, so I've been trying to find a new station. I gave radio two a try and really liked it, so it's now my regular station. I tried radio one but it's far too modern for an oldie like me. Radio two hits the spot just right.
 
underbank

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scotrail158713 said:
I really enjoyed Line of Duty. I only discovered it in April but have now watched series 1-5. You have to watch it from the start of series 1 though - I'm not sure if the 1st series is on iPlayer anymore though, if not it’s on Netflix.
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I liked the first couple of series, but 3 onwards started getting boring and I barely got to the end of the latest series. Why do they always drag things out beyond their natural lifespans?

Can't really think of anything else I've watched on the Beeb recently. I mostly binge watch box sets these days, mostly American stuff. Don't even watch the news on the Beeb anymore.
 
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