German driver happy to answer questions you may have on rail operation

axlecounter said:

Thank you. Don’t bother with german as that isn’t my first language either It’s quite clear what you say and knowing the german words I can always see what you translated into what, that’s not a problem.

Did I get it correctly that the train has to pass the next signal, train end (Zugschluss) included, at the speed signalled by the previous signal? That to be sure the last point (Weiche) of the previous section has passed, I guess?

So, if that is correct, the above mentioned rule about the scheduled stop is just another way of saying that if a train stops at the platform it surely means that it is short enough to have left the previous Weichenbereich ? Is it?

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It means that if the train is scheduled to stop, then it is safe for the restricted speed in the weichenbereich to be ended at that point. The Zugschluss has to pass the next main signal in all situations, except when there is a scheduled stop - then your speed restriction is lifted as soon as you have stopped.

All clear, thank you!

This is about Austria but probably similar practice to DE.
I was on DB ICE22 Wien-Regensburg (-Dortmund) on the upgraded Westbahn last week.
Half an hour out of Wien we stopped in the middle of nowhere - for 3 hours, with "problems on the line".
After 15 minutes or so, the train reversed a km or so to a rural platform at Markersdorf, where the doors were opened so passengers could take a break (and a smoke!).
This was in high temperatures (33C), but it was much appreciated by the passengers.
I'm not sure this would have been allowed in the UK.
The delay was apparently caused by an OHL power failure which needed emergency repairs, stopping the whole line for 3 hours.
So bad failures with modern infrastructure do happen abroad!
I'm due some compensation from DB - it must have cost ÖBB Infra a lot of money overall.

The line is an upgraded route with LZB cab signalling, and supports 230km/h (142mph) with multiple pantographs, something we don't seem able to achieve.
I think this setup is the same as on Germany's ABS routes.
The train was a tilting ICE-T and was very comfortable, the best train of my trip from Venice to Rotterdam via Vienna.
I had not realised DB used tilting trains on its ICE network, evidently very valuable on the winding Wels-Passau-Regensburg sections between the HS lines.
I had time to note that there were makers' plates on the train for Siemens, Bombardier, FIAT and Alstom - truly a polyglot train!

LNW-GW Joint said:

This is about Austria but probably similar practice to DE.
I was on DB ICE22 Wien-Regensburg (-Dortmund) on the upgraded Westbahn last week.
Half and hour out of Wien we stopped in the middle of nowhere - for 3 hours, with "problems on the line".
After 15 minutes or so, the train reversed a km or so to a platform at Markersdorf, where the doors were opened so passengers could take a break (and a smoke!).
This was in high temperatures (33C), but it was much appreciated by the passengers.
I'm not sure this would have been allowed in the UK.
The delay was apparently caused by an OHL power failure which needed emergency repairs, stopping the whole line for 3 hours.
So bad failures with modern infrastructure do happen abroad!
I'm due some compensation from DB - it must have cost ÖBB Infra a lot of money overall.

The line is an upgraded route with LZB cab signalling, and supports 230km/h (142mph) with multiple pantographs, something we don't seem able to achieve.
I think this setup is the same as on Germany's ABS routes.
The train was a tilting ICE-T and was very comfortable, the best train of my trip from Venice to Rotterdam via Vienna.
I had not realised DB used tilting trains on its ICE network, evidently very valuable on the winding Wels-Passau-Regensburg sections between the HS lines.
I had time to note that there were makers' plates on the train for Siemens, Bombardier, FIAT and Alstom - truly a polyglot train!

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That’s a great ride. I was on it last July during the heat wave: the air con failed in one of the coaches and the staff had to ‘evacuate’ it, roping off the seats as the temperature was so high!

I managed to get one of the rear-facing seats just behind the rear cab with a great view of the ride in reverse.

LNW-GW Joint said:

I had not realised DB used tilting trains on its ICE network, evidently very valuable on the winding Wels-Passau-Regensburg sections between the HS lines.
I had time to note that there were makers' plates on the train for Siemens, Bombardier, FIAT and Alstom - truly a polyglot train!

Click to expand...

The ICE-T sets were built for Frankfurt-Dresden and Berlin-Munich, both of which have low-speed sections like the WCML in Cumbria. AFAIK they are the only sets with authorisation for Passau-Vienna, but I'm not sure how dependent on tilt the route is, especially with the Westbahn upgrade (I was on one a couple of weeks back). The new Halle-Nuremberg HSL has removed the need for them on Berlin-Munich - I had a pair of the 5car sets (Br415) on a Munich-Stuttgart-Frankfurt last Sunday.

LNW-GW Joint said:

I'm not sure this would have been allowed in the UK.

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Wrong direction movements in circumstances like those are allowed in the UK, but if a line is only signalled in one direction (as most lines are) this can be a rather time consuming process. 'Reversing back' would be a totally unsignalled move which needs plenty of coordination between the driver, signaller and Control.

I thought he was referring more to the “let the people out for a fag” part, compared to an hypothetical similar situation in the UK...

axlecounter said:

I thought he was referring more to the “let the people out for a fag” part, compared to an hypothetical similar situation in the UK...

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I haven't seen a train reverse for that purpose, but I have seen a VT release doors at Tring during serious disruption to that kind of end.

axlecounter said:

I thought he was referring more to the “let the people out for a fag” part, compared to an hypothetical similar situation in the UK...

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No, I meant the reversing to a platform bit.
I'm not fussed about smokers, but it's a surprise to see it on platforms abroad.

LNW-GW Joint said:

The line is an upgraded route with LZB cab signalling, and supports 230km/h (142mph) with multiple pantographs, something we don't seem able to achieve.
I think this setup is the same as on Germany's ABS routes.
The train was a tilting ICE-T and was very comfortable, the best train of my trip from Venice to Rotterdam via Vienna.
I had not realised DB used tilting trains on its ICE network, evidently very valuable on the winding Wels-Passau-Regensburg sections between the HS lines.
I had time to note that there were makers' plates on the train for Siemens, Bombardier, FIAT and Alstom - truly a polyglot train!

Click to expand...

The ICE-T tilts on I believe 3 routes - definitely Nürnberg - Passau, something around Würzburg (Hannover - Würzburg comes to my mind, but that might be an actual high speed line, I'm not too familiar with that area), and another route that has completely evaded my memory. There are some regional tilting trains too, between Nürnberg - Hof and Nürnberg - Augsburg - Kempten - Lindau, all with Br 612, and I'm pretty sure there are other routes near Ulm and maybe even other places too, although they intend to remove this. A shame in my opinion, because it really did make a noticeable improvement on the train speed.

AlexNL said:

Wrong direction movements in circumstances like those are allowed in the UK, but if a line is only signalled in one direction (as most lines are) this can be a rather time consuming process. 'Reversing back' would be a totally unsignalled move which needs plenty of coordination between the driver, signaller and Control.

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As far as an unscheduled stop, that it is definitely an issue here too. What likely happened is the train staff requested this from the Verkehrsleitung (the dispatching area for DB Fernverkehr), who checked if the platform was suitable. Due to DB making it to the press numerous times during the summer because of too hot trains in summer, they are very keen to have this situation improved, and so this kind of thing probably isn't too rare nowadays. We have a special set of instructions of what to do if the AC fails and we're stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

As far as the operational procedure to go "backwards", a member of staff who is trained in rail operations must be at the 'back' and be able to communicate with the driver, where going 'backwards' is then allowed to be done at 10 km/h. If the driver can go to the back themselves, then you can go back at 20 km/h. A "Befehl" which translates best to command is given from the Signaller, where it is stated up to where the train driver is allowed to go back to - this is a reference point that must be visible from the direction of travel. All signals, if any, retain their value at all times (the signaller used to be able to say signals aren't valid anymore, and for train lengths of up to 100 meters the back didn't even need to be manned - the driver could literally drive backwards while looking out of the window - both are no longer allowed as of I believe 2016), so any signals that need to be passed at danger must be included in the command or otherwise dealt with a Zs 1, 7 or 8. Upon arrival the driver needs to confirm that they are no longer going 'backwards' and that the train is still complete (so that the signaller can clear the line). If the 'backwards driving' ends outside of a station, then the driver needs a verbal confirmation that they can proceed in the intended direction again, as well as driving at a maximum speed of 40 km/h the first 2000 meters or until the state of the next main signal can be identified - whichever comes first. If in a station, then the train can depart normally using the exit signal as the signaller's allowance to proceed. What the signaller does before 'backwards' driving can commence, I'm afraid I never really learned properly, but I'd imagine they need a lot of confirmation from previous one.

That's very interesting information.
I suspect Würzburg-Hanau-Frankfurt is the other tilting section on the Vienna-Frankfurt run - Würzburg-Fulda etc is NBS.
On my day of travel (by now on a non-tilting IC service), the train schedule was advanced 45 minutes, and we missed out the Hanau stop.
We actually ran Würzburg-Aschaffenburg and then turned left to reach Darmstadt Nord, running into Frankfurt from the south.
DB emailed me about the rescheduling which I thought was pretty good, though it deprived me of a leisurely hotel breakfast at Regensburg!

Germany has a surprisingly large amount of routes capable of operating tilting trains, but sadly many of them don't have any tilting services at all and are instead operated with "standard" material.

According to DB, the following lines are currently equipped with the GNT train protection system for tilting trains:

KBS 330: Halle (Saale) Hbf - Ilsenburg (121,8 km, diesel)
KBS 430: Benhausen - Vellmar-Obervellmar (94.3 km, electrified)
KBS 510: Dresden-Altstadt - Chemnitz Hbf (77.4 km, electrified) and Chemnitz-Mitte - Hof Hbf (142 km, electrified)
KBS 525: Leipzig-Holzhausen - Chemnitz Hbf (70.9 km, diesel)
KBS 540: Gera-Debschwitz - Gößnitz (33.1 km, diesel) and Gößnitz - Glauchau-Schönbörnchen (12.4 km, electrified)
KBS 560: Abzw. Saaleck - Saalfeld (75.4 km, electrified)
KBS 565: Weimar - Jena West (22.6 km, diesel) and Jena-Göschwitz - Gera Hbf (40.5 km, diesel)
KBS 570/815: Neudietendorf - Schweinfurt Hbf (145.5 km, diesel)
KBS 580: Erfurt - Bad Sulza (47.7 km, electrified)
KBS 582: Leipzig-Leutzsch - Leißling (38.8 km, electrified)
KBS 604: Bufleben - Leinefelde (59.8 km, diesel)
KBS 605: Eisenach-Stedtfeld - Wildeck-Obersuhl (22.6 km, electrified), Abzw Faßdorf - Abzw Bebra-Blankenheim (4.9 km, electrified) and Abzw Faßdorf - Bebra (4 km, electrified)
KBS 610: Fulda - Abzw Bebra-Blankenheim (52.9 km, electrified), Bebra - Kassel Wilhelmshöhe (54.2 km, electrified)
KBS 615: Frankfurt (Main) Abzw Main-Neckar-Brücke - Hanau Hbf (21.5 km, electrified) and Haitz-Höchst - Flieden (38 km, electrified)
KBS 670: Neustadt (Weinstr) Hbf - Saarbrücken Hbf (99.8 km, electrified)
KBS 730: Basel Bad Bf - Lauchringen West (63.1 km, diesel) and Beringen Bad Bf - Singen (Hohentwiel) (26.3 km, electrified)
KBS 731: Radolfzell - Lindau-Aeschach (81.7 km, diesel)
KBS 740: Stuttgart Hbf- Singen (Hohentwiel) (173.8 km, electrified)
KBS 743: Inzigkofen - Thiergarten (Hohenenz) (6.6 km, diesel)
KBS 750: Stuttgart Hbf - Plochingen (22.8 km, electrified)
KBS 760: Plochingen - Tübingen Hbf (48.8 km, electrified)
KBS 755: Ulm Hbf - Ast Unlingen (61.7 km, diesel) and Riedlingen - Sigmaringen (27.4 km, diesel)
KBS 757: Ulm Hbf - Aalen (72.5 km, diesel)
KBS 766: Tübingen Hbf - Sigmaringen (87.5 km, diesel)
KBS 800: Aschaffenburg Hbf - Abzw. Nantenbach (42.5 km, electrified)
KBS 805: Fürth Hbf - Neustadt (Aisch) (33.3 km, electrified) and Würzburg Hbf - Iphofen (32.5 km, electrified)
KBS 810: Würzburg Hbf - Schweinfurt Hbf (43.4 km, electrified)
KBS 820: Fürth Hbf - Forchheim (Oberfr) (30.7 km, electrified)
KBS 840: Lichtenfels - Saalfeld (87.8 km, electrified)
KBS 850: Hof Hbf - Hochstadt-Marktzeuln (87 km, diesel)
KBS 855: Regensburg Hbf - Oberkotzau (173.6 km, diesel)
KBS 860: Nürnberg Hbf- Schnabelwaid - Marktredwitz/Neuenmarkt-Wirsberg (163.4 km, diesel)
KBS 870: Hersbruck (rechts Pegnitz) - Neukirchen - Weiden (Oberpf)/Irrenlohe (113.9 km, diesel)
KBS 875: Schwandorf - Furth im Wald (67.2 km, diesel)
KBS 880: Abzw Nürnberg Reichswald - Regensburg Hbf (91.1 km, electrified), Obertraubling - Radldorf (23.4 km, electrified) and Straßkirchen - Passau Hbf (64.8 km, electrified)
KBS 910: Nürnberg Hbf - Bäumenheim (101.2 km, electrified)
KBS 970: Kaufbeuren - Lindau Hbf (132.6 km, diesel)
KBS 971: Augsburg Morellstraße - Buchloe (38.6 km, diesel)

In addition, according to other sources, the following lines are (or were?) capable of tilting operations but are - apparently - not equipped with the GNT system. Maybe another user can shed some light on these:

KBS 208/225/240: short stretch between Coswig and Abzw. Leckwitz
KBS 320/330: Hildesheim Hbf - Goslar - Vienenburg
KBS 474: Euskirchen - Trier
KBS 625: Koblenz Hbf - Gießen
KBS 665.3-4: Schifferstadt - Germersheim
KBS 676: Neustadt (Weinstr) - Winden (Pfalz) and Wörth - Karlsruhe Hbf
KBS 680: Gau-Algesheim - Saarbrücken Hbf
KBS 685: Trier Hbf - Saarbrücken Hbf
KBS 704: Germersheim - Graben-Neudorf

It's interesting that Mainz-Koblenz is not on the tilt list, as the Rhine Valley lines are quite twisty for a good distance.
And do you know if DB tilting trains can run at special higher speeds (like EPS speeds on the WCML), or is it just the ability to run more of a route at line speed?

30907 said:

The ICE-T sets were built for Frankfurt-Dresden and Berlin-Munich, both of which have low-speed sections like the WCML in Cumbria. AFAIK they are the only sets with authorisation for Passau-Vienna, but I'm not sure how dependent on tilt the route is, especially with the Westbahn upgrade (I was on one a couple of weeks back). The new Halle-Nuremberg HSL has removed the need for them on Berlin-Munich - I had a pair of the 5car sets (Br415) on a Munich-Stuttgart-Frankfurt last Sunday.

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Originally the ICE-T sets were intended for Stuttgart-Zürich as well, weren't they?

Saarbrücken-Trier-(Cologne) used Class 611 tilting DMUs about 20 years ago. Reliablity was so poor it went back to loco haul and now EMU & DMU.

LNW-GW Joint said:

It's interesting that Mainz-Koblenz is not on the tilt list, as the Rhine Valley lines are quite twisty for a good distance.
And do you know if DB tilting trains can run at special higher speeds (like EPS speeds on the WCML), or is it just the ability to run more of a route at line speed?

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Tilting trains use a GNT Plan, and if your GNT is active and you have a valid plan, then all line speed signals are no longer valid for you. So I think this is more of the variant that they can exceed line speed.

A historic question that has fascinated me about German locomotives - what are the major differences between stock that is ex-Deutsche Bundesbahn and stock that is ex-Deutsche Reichsbahn?

BR111 said:

Tilting trains use a GNT Plan, and if your GNT is active and you have a valid plan, then all line speed signals are no longer valid for you. So I think this is more of the variant that they can exceed line speed.

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Could I ask what GNT stands for?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwindigkeitsüberwachung_Neigetechnik
Speed supervision of tilt technonlogy - same purpose as the balises om the WCML (IIRC TASS - Tilt and Speed Supervision).

Roast Veg said:

A historic question that has fascinated me about German locomotives - what are the major differences between stock that is ex-Deutsche Bundesbahn and stock that is ex-Deutsche Reichsbahn?

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When it comes to locomotives the obvious difference ist the speed. The GDR thought that 120kph is sufficient meaning the Class 143 is now loosing ground fast.
When it comes to Diesels, the V300 family (232 ect) were diesel electric. Almost unknown in the west.
Until unification, safety and communication system varied.

30907 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwindigkeitsüberwachung_Neigetechnik
Speed supervision of tilt technonlogy - same purpose as the balises om the WCML (IIRC TASS - Tilt and Speed Supervision).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info on GNT.
TASS is Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision, I believe.
When 390s started in the UK, the impression given was that tilting on the continent was able to operate as "tilt at will", ie with no controls.
It looks as though DB's GNT control system is similar to TASS, but I don't know it that extends to having track balises to provide information to the on-board tilting systems.
The ICE-T tilting system looks to be of the same design origin as the 390 (ie FIAT Ferroviaria, now Alstom), but I believe ICE-T uses hydraulic actuation while the 390 uses electric.
It also seems ICE-T can tilt to 8 degrees rather than the 9 degrees of the 390.

I’ve never heard of a tilt-control approach like that of UK on the continent. Usually, if any, the (tilting trains’) speed is controlled, but not the tilting of the train itself.

duesselmartin said:

When it comes to locomotives the obvious difference ist the speed. The GDR thought that 120kph is sufficient meaning the Class 143 is now loosing ground fast.
When it comes to Diesels, the V300 family (232 ect) were diesel electric. Almost unknown in the west.
Until unification, safety and communication system varied.

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The 143 is generally regarded as a well built locomotive despite its meagre top speed is it not? I was aware of the major preference for hydraulic transmission in the west.

ex-DR Soviet-built class 132 (DB 232) diesel electrics are still at work on freight across Germany, despite being up to 40 years old.

As far as I'm aware, diesel-hydraulic locos were built mainly to support the industry rather than it being done because it was believed to be more efficient or cheaper.

LNW-GW Joint said:

Thanks for the info on GNT.
TASS is Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision, I believe.
When 390s started in the UK, the impression given was that tilting on the continent was able to operate as "tilt at will", ie with no controls.
It looks as though DB's GNT control system is similar to TASS, but I don't know it that extends to having track balises to provide information to the on-board tilting systems.
The ICE-T tilting system looks to be of the same design origin as the 390 (ie FIAT Ferroviaria, now Alstom), but I believe ICE-T uses hydraulic actuation while the 390 uses electric.
It also seems ICE-T can tilt to 8 degrees rather than the 9 degrees of the 390.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I personally do not have GNT training but I'm in close contact to someone who drives with it daily, so if there are any questions related to that I can pass them on to him.

A bit of a non operational question and more a history and modus operandi question.

Why are DB still such heavy users of locomotives when most networks are moved over to MUs? Just coming to the end of a week in Munich and while there are Talents, FLIRTs, BR440s, BR446s there vast majority of non ICE services are still in the hands of "modern" locos like the 101 and 243s and then even the old 111, 120s and 218s are still in regular use. Even down to locos on the Nuremberg S-Bahn. Always strikes me as very odd.

TheEdge said:

A bit of a non operational question and more a history and modus operandi question.

Why are DB still such heavy users of locomotives when most networks are moved over to MUs? Just coming to the end of a week in Munich and while there are Talents, FLIRTs, BR440s, BR446s there vast majority of non ICE services are still in the hands of "modern" locos like the 101 and 243s and then even the old 111, 120s and 218s are still in regular use. Even down to locos on the Nuremberg S-Bahn. Always strikes me as very odd.

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To be honest this is something I've also always wondered. So far all of the InterCity services are loco hauled by a 101 or now very rarely a 120, unless there is a replacement that uses an ICE train. the newest ICE 4 was intended to later be bought in shorter variants to make up for some InterCity (now can be also known as InterCity 1) trains that run on high speed lines, however either this was completely scrapped or partially, as DB recently ordere 230 km/h loco hauled trainsets from Talgo. And for the other lines, IC 2 is also Loco hauled with either a 146 or 147, and the few diesel services are 245 or 218 hauled.

Now loco with coaches obviously has the advantage that you can make the train longer or shorter and take faulty coaches out of service much more easily, for things that might otherwise require the entire MU to be taken out. However, especially with Regional trains, this is very rarely seen - most of our services have a fixed amount of carriages and for the most part the constellation stays the same, unless there is a fault with a specific coach. Only the loco is uncoupled. It has to be said that most new trains being bought are indeed MU's, but loco hauled trains are still very popular - see the new 147, the new München - Nürnberg Express with 102 (although these coaches are essentially one unit, only the loco is interchangable outside of a maintenance depot). It's not something I've had too much thought on, but I know when I look at my shifts, I get a ton more time for loco hauled train preparation compared to MU preparation. It definitely is more time consuming and there is more planning required with all the shunting involved.

By the way, Munich doesn't have 446's, they have 445s (although the only difference is the 446's have a "Schiebetritt", which is a board that comes out when the doors are released so that there is no gap between the train and the platform. These always come out and isn't specifically designed for wheelchair users.)

Hmm, an odd quirk of choice perhaps. Frankly I'm not complaining, seeing loco release at terminals is something very novel for me, along with everything else.

Do you get many issues with your overheads coming down? In the UK we have a fair amount of trouble with headspan overheads coming down (by headspan I mean the ones supported by a single pylon each side of the line and all the catenary suspended from a cable between the pylons) but they appear to be very common throughout Germany spanning vast areas of track but don't appear to suffer from the issues we have.

Interesting that the new IC Talgo sets were mentioned, those, of course, like all Talgos, are basically unpowered fixed formation MUs rather like the TPE stock or indeed the OeBB Railjets. Which does beg the question of why not add a pantograph and transformer and a few traction motors and save a vehicle.

I suspect regional loco operation may be to do with the preference for double-deck, though - double-deck EMUs in any numbers are a quite recent thing in my experience, largely due to the lack of space to put traction equipment underneath (unless you go Dutch style and have one coach with only an upper deck with it underneath).

TheEdge said:

seeing loco release at terminals is something very novel for me, along with everything else.

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On some routes it can even happen during a service. The IRE Friedrichshafen - Ulm - Stuttgart leaves Friedrichshafen with a 218, which is uncoupled in Ulm. A 146 is then coupled to the rake for the remainder of the journey to Stuttgart.