Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

HouseOfCommons · 20 Jun 2019

On Wednesday 19 June, Alex Norris MP (Labour, Nottingham North) held a Westminster Hall debate about East to West Midlands rail connectivity where he called for the Government to back the Midlands Connect’s project, the "Midlands Rail Hub".

His office gave us the following statement about the debate:

"It would be an ambitious upgrade of the region’s rail network, which would deliver new infrastructure, completed in phases between 2024 and 2033, to transform East-West rail connectivity across the Midlands with faster, more frequent and more reliable rail services between economic centres. The project includes new direct services between Coventry and Nottingham via Leicester and connects Hereford, Worcester, South West England and Wales to the new HS2 network. Their Strategic Outline Business Case will be submitted to the DfT this month."

The Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport, Andrew Jones MP, responded to the points raised during the debate stating that:

"I strongly believe that rail is a key driver of economic growth, environmental improvement and social mobility […] The Government fully understand that, and it is why we have secured a record investment of £48 billion for our rail network over the next five years and are investing £1.5 billion in the midlands main line upgrade—the biggest since its completion 150 years ago."

You can read his full response, as well as the contributions of other MPs to the debate on Hansard.

You can also watch the debate on Parliamentlive.tv.

RailUK Forums

diffident · 20 Jun 2019

HouseOfCommons said:
The project includes new direct services between Coventry and Nottingham via Leicester and connects Hereford, Worcester, South West England and Wales to the new HS2 network.

Sounds interesting. Whether this is the Camp Hill Chords or some other project further south, I don't know. I'm all ears though!

Glenn1969 · 20 Jun 2019

One for Speculative Ideas or is there some chance of it actually happening?

Neen Sollars · 20 Jun 2019

diffident said:
Sounds interesting. Whether this is the Camp Hill Chords or some other project further south, I don't know. I'm all ears though!

Yes, rebuilding of the Camp Hill Chords to use two platforms at Moor Street. One platform is not used and another opposite will need to be built, plus a lot of track re-modelling on the east side approaches and signalling works. An additional bay (only?) platform at Snow Hill is also available now the Metro terminates at New Street. There is also a new entrance to Snow Hill to connect with the new Metro stop either already under construction or not far off starting.

Jorge Da Silva · 20 Jun 2019

Neen Sollars said:
Yes, rebuilding of the Camp Hill Chords to use two platforms at Moor Street. One platform is not used and another opposite will need to be built, plus a lot of track re-modelling on the east side approaches and signalling works. An additional bay (only?) platform at Snow Hill is also available now the Metro terminates at New Street. There is also a new entrance to Snow Hill to connect with the new Metro stop either already under construction or not far off starting.

New platform at Snow Hill will be a through platform (so there will be 4 through platforms)

edwin_m · 20 Jun 2019

Neen Sollars said:
Yes, rebuilding of the Camp Hill Chords to use two platforms at Moor Street. One platform is not used and another opposite will need to be built, plus a lot of track re-modelling on the east side approaches and signalling works. An additional bay (only?) platform at Snow Hill is also available now the Metro terminates at New Street. There is also a new entrance to Snow Hill to connect with the new Metro stop either already under construction or not far off starting.

The Camp Hill Chords don't actually exist and never have, so they are new construction rather than rebuilding. Going out of Moor Street they will ramp up and split left and right to create a triangle to the Camp Hill line where it passes over the Moor Street line. The only other curves in the area are those that allow trains to join the Camp Hill line from New Street and go from the New Street or Water Orton lines towards Solihull. And in all cases in the opposite direction too!

The Planner · 20 Jun 2019

They won't be doing a lot down there before 2025-6 as HS2 will be encamped along the Washwood Heath section still.

swt_passenger · 20 Jun 2019

Through trains from Coventry to Leicester would need significant new infrastructure at Nuneaton as well. When’s that happening?

DavidGrain · 20 Jun 2019

As I have commented on another thread, a through train from Coventry to Leicester would require a reverse 'out in the country' not in the station so that the train would call at Nuneaton twice, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers as well as the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train. I don't think there is anyway of avoiding a reverse so a new line would have to be built from the Coventry line across the WCML to the higher level Leicester line platforms. You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

swt_passenger · 20 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
As I have commented on another thread, a through train from Coventry to Leicester would require a reverse 'out in the country' not in the station so that the train would call at Nuneaton twice, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers as well as the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train. I don't think there is anyway of avoiding a reverse so a new line would have to be built from the Coventry line across the WCML to the higher level Leicester line platforms. You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

Yes, and all just the sort of stuff that politicians can happily ignore when initially proposing such random great ideas...

Starmill · 20 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
As I have commented on another thread, a through train from Coventry to Leicester would require a reverse 'out in the country' not in the station so that the train would call at Nuneaton twice, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers as well as the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train. I don't think there is anyway of avoiding a reverse so a new line would have to be built from the Coventry line across the WCML to the higher level Leicester line platforms. You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

swt_passenger said:
Yes, and all just the sort of stuff that politicians can happily ignore when initially proposing such random great ideas...

Good points. But do they want the service to actually call at Nuneaton? Leicester and Coventry are relatively large cities, and Nuneaton is a small town, a similar size to Hinckley.

However one looks at it, it's a question of 'speculative ideas' to me, but it is reassuring to me that there is clear recognition from politicians that rail transport between Leicester and Coventry as it stands is rather poor.

swt_passenger · 20 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
Good points. But do they want the service to actually call at Nuneaton? Leicester and Coventry are relatively large cities, and Nuneaton is a small town, a similar size to Hinckley.

Fair point, but what would be the alternative route without involving Nuneaton?

train_lover · 20 Jun 2019

The West Midlands needs much much more than just the Camp Hill chords.

With the clean air policy just 6 months away I'm watching and waiting for the transport system in and out of Birmingham to go bang.

The Midlands rail network has so much potential. It's a shame that politicians will need to discuss this for years to come before shovels are in the ground.

30907 · 20 Jun 2019

swt_passenger said:
Fair point, but what would be the alternative route without involving Nuneaton?

ISTR there was a direct connection under the WCML - you can just about make it out on satellite view - but it's long gone.

Elecman · 20 Jun 2019

I was lead to believe that Transport is exempt from the Birmingham Clean Air policy for now

DavidGrain · 20 Jun 2019

Continuing on the subject of Coventry to Leicester. Even if train don't call at Nuneaton (and it is a connection to the WCML) then a line would still be required bridging the WCML

Starmill · 20 Jun 2019

swt_passenger said:
Fair point, but what would be the alternative route without involving Nuneaton?

DavidGrain said:
Continuing on the subject of Coventry to Leicester. Even if train don't call at Nuneaton (and it is a connection to the WCML) then a line would still be required bridging the WCML

There is no line, but since we're talking about a service that could only exist with infrastructure modifications, a new bypass line to take trains from Bermuda Park straight to Hinckley is no crazier than any other suggestion.

train_lover · 20 Jun 2019

Elecman said:
I was lead to believe that Transport is exempt from the Birmingham Clean Air policy for now

I meant the fact that a countless number of people will be forced onto public transport thanks to the clean air policy. Unfortunately the system is already at bursting point.

Looking away from Birmingham there are many key towns and cities in the Midlands that desperately need better connections.

edwin_m · 20 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
There is no line, but since we're talking about a service that could only exist with infrastructure modifications, a new bypass line to take trains from Bermuda Park straight to Hinckley is no crazier than any other suggestion.

I don't think missing out a major interchange and probably the biggest town between Coventry and Leicester makes much sense. With two other passenger trains and a couple of freights maximum every hour it ought to be possible to reverse at the former Abbey station and come back through the other side of the surviving station. Various Nottingham-Lincoln trains have done similar over the years to serve both Newark stations.

The Planner · 20 Jun 2019

edwin_m said:
I don't think missing out a major interchange and probably the biggest town between Coventry and Leicester makes much sense. With two other passenger trains and a couple of freights maximum every hour it ought to be possible to reverse at the former Abbey station and come back through the other side of the surviving station. Various Nottingham-Lincoln trains have done similar over the years to serve both Newark stations.

Ironically you could probably get off at platform 1 and walk across to 7 quicker than the move up to Abbey Jn, reverse and back to the station.

Bald Rick · 20 Jun 2019

train_lover said:
With the clean air policy just 6 months away I'm watching and waiting for the transport system in and out of Birmingham to go bang.

train_lover said:
I meant the fact that a countless number of people will be forced onto public transport thanks to the clean air policy. Unfortunately the system is already at bursting point.

It won’t go bang. London’s didn’t two months ago. People will pay.

train_lover · 21 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
It won’t go bang. London’s didn’t two months ago. People will pay.

Do you you public transport in and out of Birmingham? Station carparks are already full long before 9am. The vast majority of trains are rammed often leaving people behind.

DarloRich · 21 Jun 2019

The Planner said:
They won't be doing a lot down there before 2025-6 as HS2 will be encamped along the Washwood Heath section still.

that is going to be a real constraint on any plans.

DavidGrain said:
You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

The new platforms at Bletchley are not "on the ramp up to the viaduct". They will be opposite the existing station on the level!

si404 · 21 Jun 2019

edwin_m said:
I don't think missing out a major interchange and probably the biggest town between Coventry and Leicester makes much sense.

that is TfWMs plan though. But with two stoppers Cov-Nun, 1 fast (part of a Euston-Crewe service) and similar for the Leicester-Nuneaton route, it's not really much missed by those services (1tph Cov-Hinckley-Leicester, 1tph Cov-Lei non stop) taking a chord avoiding Nuneaton station rather than serving it.

Aictos · 21 Jun 2019

train_lover said:
Do you you public transport in and out of Birmingham? Station carparks are already full long before 9am. The vast majority of trains are rammed often leaving people behind.

Indeed, I lived in Birmingham last year and in the peaks the buses were VERY VERY busy not helped of course by the endless number of cars choking up the main routes out of the city centre.

Indeed it used to take a good 20 to 30 minutes in the peak just to travel what should take a couple of minutes between New Street and that roundabout junction with the hotel on the corner, not sure what it’s called

VT 390 · 21 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
As I have commented on another thread, a through train from Coventry to Leicester would require a reverse 'out in the country' not in the station so that the train would call at Nuneaton twice, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers as well as the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train. I don't think there is anyway of avoiding a reverse so a new line would have to be built from the Coventry line across the WCML to the higher level Leicester line platforms. You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

Surly a much cheaper/easier/simpler option would be once the half hourly service operates Coventry to Nuneaton re-time services so that they have very good connections on to Leicester services. I know things may need to be re timed on the WCML at Coventry but that will need to happen once HS2 opens anyway.

Roast Veg · 21 Jun 2019

The Leicester service already times pretty well with the Coventry service - it often shows up as the rpeferred route on journey planners for travel to Oxford, particularly at weekends when the change at BHM is not so good.

Western Lord · 21 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
Good points. But do they want the service to actually call at Nuneaton? Leicester and Coventry are relatively large cities, and Nuneaton is a small town, a similar size to Hinckley.

I don't call a town with a population of more than 85,000 "small". A small town is one with a population of a few thousand. Nuneaton is actually the largest town in Warwickshire and is not "a similar size" to Hinckley, but is actually twice the size.

VT 390 · 21 Jun 2019

Roast Veg said:
The Leicester service already times pretty well with the Coventry service - it often shows up as the rpeferred route on journey planners for travel to Oxford, particularly at weekends when the change at BHM is not so good.

Some of the connections are okay but still not great, for example a lot of off peak services arrive at Nuneaton at XX38 to connect on to the XX51 XC service to Leicester but some services for example the 14:49 arrival at Nuneaton does not allow the minimum connection time on to the 14:51 to Leicester. Going the other way it is a similar situation.
Also I think they connect on to the wrong Leicester service as places between Nuneaton and Leicester have waits of over half an hour at Nuneaton which makes the service not very usable. So even though some connections at Nuneaton are good others are not.

Starmill · 21 Jun 2019

Western Lord said:
I don't call a town with a population of more than 85,000 "small".

It is remarkably small compared to Leicester. And Coventry.

Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

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