Busaholic
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It just occurred to me that, in the unlikely event of Jeremy Hunt becoming the True Blue's favourite, we'll have two Jeremys as party leaders. A composite would be Jeremy Huntyn. Tally ho!!
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Theresa May Resigns & Conservative Leader Election Discussion
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You said it the other day Busaholic , and I know that you’ve seen quite a few governments over the years. Something along the lines of - This most rottenest of all rotten governments.
And as DarloRich said just now - The alternatives are equally as bad.
I’m seriously worried about the future for my children at the moment. Yes my generation had the oppressive threat of nuclear armageddon hanging in the air, but I don’t believe that we grew up with this general feeling of utter despair that seems to pervade everything at the moment.
What a mess. Last one out switch the lights off...
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I agree.
When we were a proper country we as a people would have seen though and seen off chancers, idiots and snake oil salesmen like Johnson, Corbyn and Farage and gone for someone solid, boring and sensible instead. Like John Major ( and it is a mad world when you agree with /think well of a Tory!) Yet today we no longer do that. Stupidity, ignorance and credulity are considered virtues these days. Facts, accuracy, probity, honesty, decency and truth don't matter anymore and are, in fact, a hindrance to success. Being ignorant and thick seems to be a badge of honour and we seem to elect the biggest liar and charlatan we can find. We will pay for this very soon.
Busaholic
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I've always been interested in politics and current affairs, as well as history, my favourite subject at school. It did seem entirely possible in the two and three decades after the Second World War, certainly from a British and European perspective, that things were, on the whole, getting better and would continue to do so, and this was a generally-held view. In studying Russian history, which I did both at 'A' level as a special subject and at university I often pondered whether countries/societies got the governments they deserved, given how often the Russian people had been oppressed and continue to be. I'm seriously concerned now that we're getting the politicians and governments we deserve, with very few apparently both competent and principled. Never mind Brexit, which no-one has the slightest clue how to implement without totally isolating and impoverishing us, what about the housing crisis, the social care crisis, the knife crime crisis in cities, etc etc? ANYONE who thinks any of Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn or Nigel Farage is inspirational or worthy of their vote should either check their dictionary definition or seek psychiatric help. I genuinely hate saying this, because I hate to be thinking it, but you're right about the future we're bequeathing our children and grandchildren, but so many seem to be burying their heads in the sand over this. I've no more answers than anyone else, but at least I can see the scale of the problems, which are immense, and I'm not even including the whole climate change thing, No need to turn the lights out, they'll go out of their own accord!
It appears to be coming back - Trump/Iran!
I know this is going to bring the white-coated people, but could we have Maggie back, please?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Do the people who do exhumations wear white coats?
Some of what Thatcher did, especially in the early days, probably needed doing. But a lot of our problems today arguably stem from the policies of that era. For example the sell-off of council housing and failure to build replacements was a cause of the housing crisis we have today, and the deregulation of financial services and favouring it over other industries contributed to the 2008 financial crisis and the continuing bias of our economy towards the City. And let's not forget that her intransigence over the poll tax literally led to rioting in the streets. I've pointed out before how Osborne used the Thatcherite concept that a country should be run like a household to sell austerity to the public, when he really ought to have known (and possibly did know) it's a lot more complicted than that and what happened was eminently foreseeable.
MP's are forever being told they are out of touch and need to connect with the people more. He was just following orders.
Howardh
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Yes, she was very keen on Europe!
Howardh
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*Like*!
Oh, that's a fairly serious assault, and the violent look on his face doesn't help. Its the City of London police, so there's not that much chance he'll be charged. In a better-run government he would be close to getting booted out as an MP for that, let alone his ministerial position.
Geezertronic
Established Member
Just like Trump was the lesser of two evils in the USA, would Johnson or Hunt be the lesser of two evils compared to a Corbyn government?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Suspended apparently: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48718725
And, news just in: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48720176
He's one of the ERG mob, in a seat that was previously LibDem. One less for the pro-Brexit "majority"?
Geezertronic
Established Member
Greenpeace activists - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I've seen the footage and it's hardly newsworthy to be honest, just giving the idiots the publicity they do not deserve.
A huge over reaction to this IMHO. I am no defender of Tories and a lifelong Labour supporter but the quote on the BBC website:
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48718725)
But Labour's shadow women and equalities minister Dawn Butler tweeted: "This is horrific... [Mark Field] must immediately be suspended or sacked."
is ridiculous and deserves contempt. Murder is horrific, rape is horrific, war is horrific, this most certainly was not unless the definition of the word has changed drastically since I was at school.
Geezertronic
Established Member
And Labours Tonia Antoniazzi said "No one who reacts like this to a peaceful protest should be sitting in our Parliament."
It was not a peaceful protest, it was a disruptive protest and was meant to be disruptive otherwise why cause the disruption in the first place. The vast majority of protests are meant to cause disruption and cannot be called peaceful
Then Greenpeace campaigner Areeba Hamid says "...It was quite ludicrous to suggest that the protester might have been armed". She would say that, but did the protestor announce herself as unarmed and even if she did why should she be believed?
It was not a peaceful protest, it was a disruptive protest and was meant to be disruptive otherwise why cause the disruption in the first place. The vast majority of protests are meant to cause disruption and cannot be called peaceful
Then Greenpeace campaigner Areeba Hamid says "...It was quite ludicrous to suggest that the protester might have been armed". She would say that, but did the protestor announce herself as unarmed and even if she did why should she be believed?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It seems a disproportionate use of force even if you accept his perfectly valid excuse that he feared an imminent assault.
BTW - Rob F - good you see you would rather focus on a political response than an MP grabbing a women by the throat and marching her away. Good to see you have your priorities right.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
what a bizarre post. There was no risk in my mind. Where was this supposed deadly weapon to be hidden in an evening gown? Again, good to see focus on the important points not the alleged assault.
You can probably trace this whole euro-scepticism thing (that eventually led to the referendum) to her.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
The evil one was quite keen on Europe but not on European political integration. Her desire to be involved in Europe was entirely based on trade and business.
Geezertronic
Established Member
What a bizarre response. How was anyone to know the intentions of these protesters who just barged into the room and caused disruption? You'll note from the video that this protester had items in her hand including a bag and was rushing towards the front of the room. Are you seriously suggesting in the seconds that they had, the room of people could determine there was no potential threat?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Look at the complete video on the ITV site. No one else in the room reacted as if there was a threat. The security people were removing other protesters from the room in a fairly gentle manner. They, who I assume are professional venue security people felt there was no threat yet an untrained Tory MP could asses the threat, instantly, and decide it was huge. The lady walked past 4 or 5 other people who didn't see such a danger!
I also find it hard to believe that a senior political figure such as the chancellor did not have a body guard. I know from personal experience that when my MP was foreign secretary he had a security man with him at all times. If there was such a person present he or she didn't seem worried. As for rushing it seems the lady in red was walking quite purposefully towards to top table and trying to make some point towards the great and the good!
If you accept his excuse that he felt under imminent threat of assault you must consider if the use of force was appropriate and proportionate. I, from personal experience of this type of case, feel it was not. Had she been running, barging people aside, waving something and shouting madly I MIGHT buy his excuse. This lady wasn't. The response was not, to my mind, proportionate. You are, of course, welcome to disagree.
Explain? Political in what way? I used my opening sentence to highlight that my opinion was NOT based on political tribalism.
You are a master at leaping to unwarranted conclusions and you have absolutely no idea what my priorities may or may not be. I stand by my assertion that the use of the word horrific was completely unwarranted, and applying it to this incident could serve to reduce its impact, and also the perception of terrible events where its usage is truly merited.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
no criticisms of the event but rather focus on an unrelated tweet sent in a political capacity and focusing on semantics? Personally I would be more worried about whether, or not, it was appropriate to use force in this manner.
Each to their own.
The event was a well-managed meeting of the great and the good with security staff in place reacting to what was happening. In that context it was pretty horrifying that a supposedly respectable elected official should react that violently and with that much apparent fury on their face to somebody who was just walking past them.
Sure, the word is probably a little overused these days, but the fact is that the event was appalling and should be career ending. Turning into a cheap argument about semantics is a typical way for the politically motivated to draw attention away from what's actually going on, and people tend to react to it accordingly.
Again, explain how i am politically motivated?
I really can't be bothered with all this nonsense, I have my own views on this issue and many others and surely it is up to me what I choose to discuss. You ,however, cannot infer what my views may be on anything else as you have no knowledge on which to base a judgement.
Elevating every incident to horrific or appalling can serve to diminish the really serious crimes as they get 'lost in the noise'. Like it not, our use of language is incredibly important as it affects the views people take and the actions it leads them to.
I have nothing further to add so please feel free to have the last word. Just choose it carefully!!
This, surely, is the point. They (almost certainly given the occasion) would have been trained - to observe the situation, assess the risk, control events and expedite a solution with the minimum of fuss. I would argue that Mr Field made things worse. Security might have had to focus on his activities rather than on a more imminent danger from another protester; if that protester had been a threat, his uncontrolled intervention might have put others at risk; and the disorder caused by the manner of his intervention might have heightened stress amongst other guests. I can find no record that Mr Field has experience in conflict resolution - he wasn't in the Police or armed forces (regular or volunteer).
Lastly he has given the Greenpeace intervention the publicity they could only dream of. Front page tomorrow, prominent in the Sundays.
Geezertronic
Established Member
If you think that was pretty horrifying and that the reaction was violent, then you need to reassess your thoughts on what qualifies as horrifying and violent. There is plenty of proper horrifying and violent stuff that goes on in this world, but that was not one of them. This was not just someone walking past, this was a protester who no one could know whether they had an ulterior motive or not.
So you've gone from from horrifying to appalling... and no this should not be career ending. If you consider that to be career ending, then again you need to reassess your thoughts. You have been quite emotive in your post
krus_aragon
Established Member
I can easily see that seat returning to Lib-Dem hands in the by-election, given how well the Conservatives and Labour did in other elections this year. (The corresponding Assembly seat's been held by the Lib Dems' Kirsty Williams since 1999.)
That'd leave the Conservatives' majority on a knife edge: 311 CON + 10 DUP = 321, out of a house of 642 (disregarding Sinn Fein abstenionists and the Speaker)
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