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Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

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tomuk

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Leicester - Nuneaton- Coventry could be another service routed over a reopened Stonebridge Railway.
 
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The Planner

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Leicester - Nuneaton- Coventry could be another service routed over a reopened Stonebridge Railway.
Eh? You would re-open Hampton in Arden to Whitacre for that service, the time penalty would be ridiculous? The route is pretty much obliterated south of the M6 and will be more so by HS2, that line is never re-opening.
 

option

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There is no line, but since we're talking about a service that could only exist with infrastructure modifications, a new bypass line to take trains from Bermuda Park straight to Hinckley is no crazier than any other suggestion.

A Cov-Leic only service wouldn't work if it missed out Nuneaton. It would be a local service, so serving people doing Cov-Nuneaton, Hinckley-Nuneaton etc.
It could even replace the current XC stops between Nuneaton & Leicester.

There's space to get a flyover in to get the Cov line across to P6/7.
 

VT 390

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A Cov-Leic only service wouldn't work if it missed out Nuneaton. It would be a local service, so serving people doing Cov-Nuneaton, Hinckley-Nuneaton etc.
It could even replace the current XC stops between Nuneaton & Leicester.

There's space to get a flyover in to get the Cov line across to P6/7.
I think the XC stops between Leicester and Nuneaton should be replaced by WMR but the Coventry service should be in addition to a new stopping service to Birmingham otherwise places like Hinckley would loose direct Birmingham services which I think is far more important than Coventry as a destination.
 

Ianno87

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Surly a much cheaper/easier/simpler option would be once the half hourly service operates Coventry to Nuneaton re-time services so that they have very good connections on to Leicester services. I know things may need to be re timed on the WCML at Coventry but that will need to happen once HS2 opens anyway.

The Leicester service already times pretty well with the Coventry service - it often shows up as the rpeferred route on journey planners for travel to Oxford, particularly at weekends when the change at BHM is not so good.

Half-hourly Cov-Nuneaton connecting into a half-hourly Brum-Leicester stopper (in addition to the hourly Stansted) would be my 'strategy'.
 

VT 390

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Half-hourly Cov-Nuneaton connecting into a half-hourly Brum-Leicester stopper (in addition to the hourly Stansted) would be my 'strategy'.
That is sort of what I was thinking but with just the existing XC services but having 2tph stopping Birmingham to Leicester is a very good idea as it should encourage more use of the smaller stations on the route as well as giving South Wigston and Water Orton at least an hourly service, also it should help withh overcrowding on the Stansted Airport services.
 

Realfish

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Through trains from Coventry to Leicester would need significant new infrastructure at Nuneaton as well. When’s that happening?

On a smaller scale, West Midlands Rail seem to be making positive noises about reintroducing Lichfield to Burton passenger services on the freight / ECS only line there. Possible electrification has been muted but, according to WMR, ''there could be a shorter term option to provide some passenger services on the route, for example by using non-electric stock, which would allow for a shuttle train to operate between the two areas - and would no require expensive electrification of the line.''

The proposals would simplify journeys from South Staffs to Derby and Nottingham and include a rebuilt station at Alrewas to serve the growing population and new housing there as well as the National Memorial Arboretum.
 

VT 390

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On a smaller scale, West Midlands Rail seem to be making positive noises about reintroducing Lichfield to Burton passenger services on the freight / ECS only line there. Possible electrification has been muted but, according to WMR, ''there could be a shorter term option to provide some passenger services on the route, for example by using non-electric stock, which would allow for a shuttle train to operate between the two areas - and would no require expensive electrification of the line.''

The proposals would simplify journeys from South Staffs to Derby and Nottingham and include a rebuilt station at Alrewas to serve the growing population and new housing there as well as the National Memorial Arboretum.
Whilst I strongly agree with the Burton to Lichfield line being reopened I do not think a diesel shuttle service would attract nearly as many passengers as a through Birmingham service would but it is better than nothing.
Also I don't see how journeys to Nottingham/Derby would be simpler as connections exist at Tamworth (not with the best connection times) requiring just one change but you would have to change at Lichfield and Burton on the new service unless it was extended through to Derby, something I would not be against but unsure if paths are available.
Another reason why this is a good proposal is it could be a cheaper alternative to XC for Birmingham to Burton passengers freeing up some space for longer distance passengers, perhaps in the future a semi-fast service could be introduced to Burton on the Cross City line missing out some stations between Lichfield City and Birmingham?
 

Bald Rick

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Do you you public transport in and out of Birmingham? Station carparks are already full long before 9am. The vast majority of trains are rammed often leaving people behind.

Sometimes I do commute into Birmingham, yes. Full car parks and rammed trains leaving people behind has been the usual experience for many London commuters for a decade or more. People just won’t stop using their cars overnight when the ULEZ comes in. Most will pay, some will amend their route, some will choose other modes. But it won’t break the Birmingham public transport system.
 

DavidGrain

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I live about 100 yards from a bus stop with a limited stop service into Birmingham but it does not seem able many times to overtake the 'all stops' bus because of the traffic. It also does a magical mystery tour which seems to change from month to month because of the work on the Paradise Circus re-development and now the building of the extension to the West Midlands Metro. Actually I have not driven my car into the centre of Birmingham since I moved house 3 1/2 years ago. My prefered method of travel now is to drive one mile to my nearest station and get the train into the city centre some time switching to the tram if that is a more convenient part of the centre. The problem however with this is that the car park is now full from about 8.30am, although I can usually find a space in the afternoon. I have now started catching an early train and having breakfast in a coffee bar.

My local station is actually served by two TOCs, WMR and Chiltern. However even when I am travelling to London I have to stand as far as Birmingham because the Chiltern trains are also full of Birmingham commuters.

The Birmingham traffic has coped with many changes over the years. I was amazed many years ago when traffic was prevented from using part of the Inner Ring Road (St Martins Queensway) people just changed their routes.

So Birmingham will cope. The clean air zone has been put off for at least 6 months.
 

train_lover

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Whilst I have a feeling the system may just cope I see first hand on a daily basis how stretched our system is. What I'd like to of seen is the powers that be seizing a golden opportunity here.

But first we must drill down into why is a clean air policy coming into force? It's simply to cut harmful emissions.
What is it the council want from the people of Birmingham once the bill is in force? To go out and but EV cars? To cycle? To use public transport?

Nobody will disagree with the fact we must cut emissions but authorities should be making public transport much more attractive and reaching out to a wider audience. Rather than taking the current approach of ramming more people onto already packed trains and buses.
 

tomuk

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Eh? You would re-open Hampton in Arden to Whitacre for that service, the time penalty would be ridiculous? The route is pretty much obliterated south of the M6 and will be more so by HS2, that line is never re-opening.
It would be about 32 mins Nuneaton to Coventry via Whitacre and Hampton in Arden. If you look at Google Maps the route is clearly visible so obliterated is a bit strong.
HS2 is the point of the reopening, you could build platforms near to HS2 interchange and provide easy interchange with services from Leicester, Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton, Walsall via Sutton Park Line. Even Burton and Derby.
 

train_lover

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It would be about 32 mins Nuneaton to Coventry via Whitacre and Hampton in Arden. If you look at Google Maps the route is clearly visible so obliterated is a bit strong.
HS2 is the point of the reopening, you could build platforms near to HS2 interchange and provide easy interchange with services from Leicester, Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton, Walsall via Sutton Park Line. Even Burton and Derby.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that Chinese investors were looking at opening this line?
 

edwin_m

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This article is suggesting that due to mostly relying on buses Birmingham is performing only as well as a city half its size: https://www.citymetric.com/transpor...r-public-transport-explains-uk-s-productivity
Many economists argue that larger cities are more productive than smaller cities, and become ever more productive as they grow due to something called “agglomeration benefits”.
...
Our hypothesis is that Birmingham’s reliance on buses makes its effective population much smaller than its real population. This reduces its productivity by sacrificing agglomeration benefits.
 

train_lover

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It's the only article I've ever seen. It's a shame nothing has happened with the line as a reckon it could be quite a handy line for trains going into International to connect with HS2
 

davehsug

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Doesn't really fit with West Midlands Trains removing the direct link between Stoke & the Trent Valley, which even happen to be in the same county! Given the paucity of our "long-distance" service buses, means you can't get beyond Crewe, Market Drayton, Stafford, Uttoxeter or Buxton without changing.
 

train_lover

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Doesn't really fit with West Midlands Trains removing the direct link between Stoke & the Trent Valley, which even happen to be in the same county! Given the paucity of our "long-distance" service buses, means you can't get beyond Crewe, Market Drayton, Stafford, Uttoxeter or Buxton without changing.

I'm lead to believe the plan is for the Rugeley TV via Walsall services are to eventually carry on to Stoke
 

pt_mad

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As I have commented on another thread, a through train from Coventry to Leicester would require a reverse 'out in the country' not in the station so that the train would call at Nuneaton twice, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers as well as the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train. I don't think there is anyway of avoiding a reverse so a new line would have to be built from the Coventry line across the WCML to the higher level Leicester line platforms. You have here something like the Bletchley situation where new platforms are going to be needed on the ramp up to the viaduct so that trains on the East-West line can serve Bletchley.

A Cov-Leic only service wouldn't work if it missed out Nuneaton. It would be a local service, so serving people doing Cov-Nuneaton, Hinckley-Nuneaton etc.
It could even replace the current XC stops between Nuneaton & Leicester.

There's space to get a flyover in to get the Cov line across to P6/7.
If they are talking about between 2026 and 2033 then why not just fit new point work which allows Nuneaton station to be crossed on the level? Could be more realistic than fancy flyovers and if London to North West expresses are using HS2 then the WCML may be quieter and or max 110mph before 2033 anyway?
 

DynamicSpirit

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If they are talking about between 2026 and 2033 then why not just fit new point work which allows Nuneaton station to be crossed on the level? Could be more realistic than fancy flyovers and if London to North West expresses are using HS2 then the WCML may be quieter and or max 110mph before 2033 anyway?

Right now, every hour there are 6 Virgin trains, 1 London NorthWestern, plus freights - in each direction. In addition, crossing on the flat implies conflicting moves with the existing trains on the Nuneaton-Leicester line, as well as with any Coventry-Nuneaton trains that terminate at Nuneaton. That's an awful lot of trains to have to path around, and I really can't things becoming much quieter with HS2. Sure, there might be some small reduction in the number of Virgin trains, but it's a reasonable guess that LNWR would take advantage of that by increasing the frequency of its trains. And if passenger numbers keep going up, we can probably expect a more frequent service on the Birmingham-Leicester route too.

Trying to get across all those trains on the level would be a pathing nightmare. I can't see it sensibly happening.
 

The Planner

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It would be about 32 mins Nuneaton to Coventry via Whitacre and Hampton in Arden. If you look at Google Maps the route is clearly visible so obliterated is a bit strong.
HS2 is the point of the reopening, you could build platforms near to HS2 interchange and provide easy interchange with services from Leicester, Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton, Walsall via Sutton Park Line. Even Burton and Derby.

It's the only article I've ever seen. It's a shame nothing has happened with the line as a reckon it could be quite a handy line for trains going into International to connect with HS2
People were trying to peddle it well before HS2 and tried to jump on it as a benefit for it to reopen, it was a third party crayonista plan that has no traction and no backing. Look at Googlemaps, Hampton in Arden would require demolition. HS2 and Birmingham Interchange obliterates the route at Middle Bickenhill, you need an entirely new bridge at the M6 exactly where the M42/M6toll junction is. This is the report written about it, £240 million at 2013 prices (so about £275 million now) and assumes Coventry to International is 4 tracked.
http://www.railnews.co.uk/content/documents/whiteacre.pdf
The ironic thing about it is that Michael Byng was behind the plan who now is disparaging against HS2, which somewhat goes against his wonderful plan of this linking in with it.
 

Accura

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Half-hourly Cov-Nuneaton connecting into a half-hourly Brum-Leicester stopper (in addition to the hourly Stansted) would be my 'strategy'.

Agreed. As an ex-Hinckley resident, I would have used the railways a lot more than I did if such a service existed.
 

pt_mad

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The Liverpool to Norwich is to be split into two seperate shorter services and yet elsewhere there are calls for combined through services to avoid changes?
 

DavidGrain

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Doesn't really fit with West Midlands Trains removing the direct link between Stoke & the Trent Valley, which even happen to be in the same county! Given the paucity of our "long-distance" service buses, means you can't get beyond Crewe, Market Drayton, Stafford, Uttoxeter or Buxton without changing.

Reopening the South Staffs line from Lichfield to Burton on Trent will not help the people in North Staffs much either. Reopening the Stonebridge line in Warwickshire will not do so at all.
 

Leo1961

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I don't call a town with a population of more than 85,000 "small". A small town is one with a population of a few thousand. Nuneaton is actually the largest town in Warwickshire and is not "a similar size" to Hinckley, but is actually twice the size.

Sorry but I have to take this opportunity to re-align your view with regard to the comparative sizes of Nuneaton & Bedworth with that of Hinckley & Bosworth.

According to the 2011 census the sizes of the population in these areas was as follows.

Nuneaton & Bedworth 125,252, who have the benefit of three stations NUN, BEP, BEH

Hinckley & Bosworth 105,078, who have the benefit of one station HNK

And there are currently plans being brought before Government by DB Symmetry (http://www.hinckleynrfi.co.uk/db-the-proposals) which will make a significant difference to both the population of the area, and the use of the railways in the area if they are passed.
 

pt_mad

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Sorry but I have to take this opportunity to re-align your view with regard to the comparative sizes of Nuneaton & Bedworth with that of Hinckley & Bosworth.

According to the 2011 census the sizes of the population in these areas was as follows.

Nuneaton & Bedworth 125,252, who have the benefit of three stations NUN, BEP, BEH

Hinckley & Bosworth 105,078, who have the benefit of one station HNK

And there are currently plans being brought before Government by DB Symmetry (http://www.hinckleynrfi.co.uk/db-the-proposals) which will make a significant difference to both the population of the area, and the use of the railways in the area if they are passed.
How many people in the wider Nuneaton area do you think use Bedworth and Bermuda Park regularly and how many will use Nuneaton? I'd say it's far more likely they'd drive to Nuneaton for any mainline service. Likewise Hinckley, how likely is it they will use Hinckley station for London rather than driving to Nuneaton and getting a direct train from there?

To be fair to Nuneaton their population is probably more than Chester which stands at just short of 80,000, and not many trains pass through there without stopping.
 

Realfish

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…perhaps in the future a semi-fast service could be introduced to Burton on the Cross City line missing out some stations between Lichfield City and Birmingham?
A semi-fast (outer suburban) Burton to B'ham via Lichfield would a good idea if the paths and stock could be found. Semi fasts run on the Cross City throughout the leaf fall timetable, although any time saving seems to be lost a Proof House Jct, seemingly waiting for access to New Street and the Midland lines.
 

Bald Rick

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A semi-fast (outer suburban) Burton to B'ham via Lichfield would a good idea if the paths and stock could be found. Semi fasts run on the Cross City throughout the leaf fall timetable, although any time saving seems to be lost a Proof House Jct, seemingly waiting for access to New Street and the Midland lines.

Well there won’t be any new paths into New St, so they would have to be extension of existing paths. Making the semi fast presumably means dropping existing calls.
 
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