Likely outcome of Travel Incident Report - any advice ?

My 21yr old son ( who has Aspergers Syndrome ) was stopped and given a Travel Incident Report by Northern ( by Arriva ) a couple of weeks ago and has just received a letter requesting his version of events which we are about to complete and return.

Was hoping to seek the advice of the community regarding the possible outcomes we can expect from this incident ( which I will outline below ) and how to approach our response to the letter.

Here is briefly what happened ( according to the notes my son made )

Date of Incident 04 / 06 / 19
Detail of journey - Sankey for Penketh to Manchester Piccadilly ( though planned final destination was Manchester Oxford Rd )

He arrived at Sankey Station to catch the 8.20 am train to Warrington Central. As he arrived quite late ( and the ticket office is located on the Liverpool bound side of the Station ) he decided to board the train and purchase his ticket from the Inspector en route ( something he has done previously when he worked in Manchester )

He did not encounter an Inspector.

Exited the train at Warrington Central ( one stop down ) and waited for his connection ( 8.55 to Manchester Oxford Rd )

Once again, he did not encounter an Inspector.

A friend of his joined him on the train at Padgate Station ( the next stop down ) and they continued on to Manchester Oxford Rd.

Again, no Inspector.

Upon arriving at Manchester Oxford Rd, he intended to purchase the ticket for his journey ( again, something he had successfully done previously when not able to purchase ticket at start of / during his journey )
However, he and his friend realised that Manchester Piccadilly actually got them closer to their actual destination, and a train to Piccadilly was already in the station, and so they got onto that train ( this was either the 9.39 or 9.43 train - he's not sure which ).

Upon arriving at Manchester Piccadilly he approached what he thought was an Inspector and asked if he could purchase his ticket as he hadn't been able to up to that point.

He was asked by this Officer ( and I quote ) " Where have you come from" ? …..and this is where my sons' Aspergers made an unwelcome appearance.
Clearly the Officer meant " Where did you start your journey " but my sons condition means he sometimes misses "sub-text".
So to the question " Where have you come from" ? , my son answered "Manchester Oxford Road" ( which was where he had JUST come from)

Of course, the officer knew he couldn't have got onto Oxford Rd station with out a ticket and pointed this out to my son who then realised the mistake he had made and panicked ( thinking that the Officer might think he was deliberately giving false info) and told the Officer he had come from Warrington. ( again, not a deliberate lie - just a panic reaction …..we live in Great Sankey which is part of Warrington )

The officer then directed him to the ticket booth where he purchased a ticket for a journey from Warrington Central to Manchester Piccadilly. ( another genuine mistake caused by his panicked /stressed state …..his most frequent journey when he worked in Manchester was from Warrington Central and he believes he said it out of habit / without thinking ).

When he showed the ticket to the Officer on his way out of the station, the Officer again pointed out to him that he couldn't have got on at Warrington Central Station without purchasing a ticket....my son finally realised that the Officer wanted to know where he started his journey and told him he had got on at Great Sankey

At this point the Officer informed him that due to him stating multiple different starting locations he was raising the Travel Incident Report.

Sorry that was so long winded.

There was never any intention to avoid paying his fare - he was trying to pay for his ticket when the incident occurred.

There was also no deliberate attempt to be deceptive regarding his starting point OR to short fare by purchasing a ticket from a different point of origin.
It is easy to understand why the Officer thought he was being untruthful and became suspicious due to his first answer but, had the question been phrased differently my sons answer would have been very different and he would have probably negotiated this situation more successfully ( not trying to blame the Officer at all here …..Aspergers can make social interactions very difficult - even when you know the person has it )

Based on the above, can anyone advise what action he is likely to face and how we might approach Northern By Arriva to settle this matter.

Thanks
Porcytree

Hi Porcytree,

I’m sure you can appreciate how this looks? It looks as if your son made a deliberate attempt to avoid the full fare. If he didn’t think then that’s unfortunately for him to take up with Northern. The problem is, regardless of intent to avoid payment, he had several opportunities to pay his fare but didn’t, leaving it till the last minute, when challenged.

As your son is an adult, he needs to explain his actions to Northern as requested. I suggest writing a letter in accompaniment expressing that it was a mistake and mentioning his Aspergers, whilst at the same time emphasising that he’s not trying to make excuses. Offer to pay the fare outstanding, plus any reasonable admin costs incurred by the company.

I’m assuming the letter states a change on it which will be used, should the matter go to court? That’s the alternative unfortunately, and the evidence is probably there for a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (fare evasion basically).

As far as the outcome goes, it’s likely Northern will take a lenient stance if it’s a first offence, as most train operators do, but take it as a get out of jail (almost) free card, as it will be a one off. Bear in mind that just boarding a train without a ticket is an offence under railway Byelaws alone (in most cases where ticket facilities are available), so your son has had plenty of missed opportunities to buy a ticket and as such, has inadvertently committed an offence even if not deliberate.

Hi Stigy,

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I certainly do appreciate how this looks.

Reading the letter again, it doesn't state a specific charge - it merely informs him that an evidential report has been submitted by the Officer that he encountered and that, to quote, " Before the Company proceeds further with it's investigations ….. we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation ".

It does mention the Regulation Of Railways Act 1889 but only in reference to a "failure to respond within 14 days " of the date of the letter ( 17th June ).

Does he have a disabled persons railcard? Sometimes policy can be a bit more lenient if one of these is possessed, but not always eligible with AS.

As already stated, tickets must be brought at first opportunity, which is at the ticket office in this instance. If sticking to routines is a trait which you son has with AS [this is a fairly common AS trait I believe], then there perhaps could be point made [on equality act grounds] with "board the train and purchase his ticket from the Inspector en route ( something he has done previously when he worked in Manchester )" part, if he usually does that and the guards had never informed that it is incorrect procedure.

(For future situations) Does he have an autism/Asperger's attention card? Might be useful in this kind of situation (https://shop.autismwestmidlands.org.uk/products/attention-card-for-adults-with-autism https://www.cheshireautism.org.uk/news/attention-card/ https://www.autism.org.uk/products/free-resources/autism-alert-cards.aspx)

porcytree said:

He arrived at Sankey Station to catch the 8.20 am train to Warrington Central...

Exited the train at Warrington Central ( one stop down ) and waited for his connection ( 8.55 to Manchester Oxford Rd )

Click to expand...

If I'm reading this correctly, he had something like 30 minutes to pay for his ticket at Warrington? If so then it's going to be very hard to convince the TOC that he wasn't trying to avoid paying the fare due.

Was your son placed under caution at any time? “You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if...” etc.

Regardless of his misstep at Piccadilly, this looks on the face of it like a clear case of attempting to avoid paying the fare. He had two opportunities to pay, at Sankey and at Warrington Central, and took advantage of neither.

To try and make sure this is kept in proportion (and with apologies if this is information you already know) let's look at the worst case scenario.

That is that your son is successfully prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act. A conviction will result in your son having to pay a fine, court costs and victim surcharge - overall a few hundreds of pounds.

That will be painful, and your son will also have a criminal record. The consensus here is that the conviction will be 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act after a year, so after that time there will be no obligation to mention it, or for it to show up on a standard DBS check.

But it will stay visible for enhanced DBS checks. But my understanding is that very few employers /volunteer organisations are too worried if one isolated incident shows up on an enhanced DBS check. Generally, they understand that people can make mistakes. What worries them is if people consistently make mistakes - that suggests a worrying lack of judgement.

So in the worst case, your son will face a financial penalty (the fine and so on). But unless he has a particularly strict employer (he's a lawyer, or works in finance) he won't lose his job or be blocked from applying for jobs. Above all, he won't go to prison.

najaB said:

If I'm reading this correctly, he had something like 30 minutes to pay for his ticket at Warrington? If so then it's going to be very hard to convince the TOC that he wasn't trying to avoid paying the fare due.

Click to expand...

No...he had probably around 20 minutes at Warrington but, as centraltrains mentions above, he can get very stuck into a routine due to his Aspergers ( in this case - get on train and purchase his ticket on the journey from the inspector ) it simply didn't occur to him to go to find a ticket machine.(it's not something he has ever had to do before so it wouldn't have been apparent to him that he could do this )

A number of the stations on the route from Liverpool to Manchester on this particular line are fairly small and often have unmanned ticket offices so there is frequently an Inspector on these trains so people can purchase their tickets. On this particular journey he didn't encounter an Inspector so he couldn't get his ticket.

It seems obvious to you or I but A.S sufferers can get completely locked into binary choices (it's either black or white never grey)

Fawkes Cat said:

To try and make sure this is kept in proportion (and with apologies if this is information you already know) let's look at the worst case scenario.

That is that your son is successfully prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act. A conviction will result in your son having to pay a fine, court costs and victim surcharge - overall a few hundreds of pounds.

That will be painful, and your son will also have a criminal record. The consensus here is that the conviction will be 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act after a year, so after that time there will be no obligation to mention it, or for it to show up on a standard DBS check.

But it will stay visible for enhanced DBS checks. But my understanding is that very few employers /volunteer organisations are too worried if one isolated incident shows up on an enhanced DBS check. Generally, they understand that people can make mistakes. What worries them is if people consistently make mistakes - that suggests a worrying lack of judgement.

So in the worst case, your son will face a financial penalty (the fine and so on). But unless he has a particularly strict employer (he's a lawyer, or works in finance) he won't lose his job or be blocked from applying for jobs. Above all, he won't go to prison.

Click to expand...

Thanks Fawkes Cat.

Yeah
you have pretty much confirmed what I suspect could be the final outcome ( worst case scenario etc )

My son has fully accepted that his actions were wrong and that it would appear that he was trying to avoid paying his fare.

With regards to not purchasing/holding a valid ticket he HONESTLY believed he was acting within the rules / common practise - he now realises he wasn't.

With regards to changing his point of depature ( short faring ) it was genuinely unintentional and due to his stress /panic at realising that his encounter with the officer was not going well ( he was well outside of his comfort zone at this point due to his Aspergers ). He believes that this is what caused him to absent mindedly buy a ticket from Warrington Central to Manchester ( rather than Great Sankey to Manchester ).

He is not intending to dispute hat he did anything wrong but hopes to show that he did not deliberately attempt to avoid payment or to be deceptive.

As an Aspergers sufferer he would clearly find an appearance in court to be incredibly difficult and stressful and we would wish to avoid this outcome if at all possible.

Are you able to suggest how we could word our reply in order to make this a possibility.

I would be tempted to write the letter on behalf of your son. You've done a good job on here of explaining how your sons disability has led him to make the choices he did on that day. Include as much detail as you can as long as its relevant and also any supporting evidence you may have. I'd also stress that you've educated your son what to do differently in the future. You may also wish to enclose a cheque for the fare if that went unpaid on the day. I would be surprised if after doing that this matter went anywhere near a court, although you may be asked to pay Northerns admin costs but I wouldn't offer this straight away.

centraltrains said:

Does he have a disabled persons railcard? Sometimes policy can be a bit more lenient if one of these is possessed, but not always eligible with AS.

As already stated, tickets must be brought at first opportunity, which is at the ticket office in this instance. If sticking to routines is a trait which you son has with AS [this is a fairly common AS trait I believe], then there perhaps could be point made [on equality act grounds] with "board the train and purchase his ticket from the Inspector en route ( something he has done previously when he worked in Manchester )" part, if he usually does that and the guards had never informed that it is incorrect procedure.

(For future situations) Does he have an autism/Asperger's attention card? Might be useful in this kind of situation (https://shop.autismwestmidlands.org.uk/products/attention-card-for-adults-with-autism https://www.cheshireautism.org.uk/news/attention-card/ https://www.autism.org.uk/products/free-resources/autism-alert-cards.aspx)

Click to expand...

Hi centraltrains.

Nope, he doesn't hold a disabled persons railcard. ( we weren't aware that AS qualified for such a card - will look into this )
Will also investigate the links you sent regarding the attention cards.

My son the "sticking to routine" king . He has routines for pretty much anything he does which is great when he is in familiar surroundings or engaged in regular activities.When things happen unexpectedly, unfortunately, his routines/coping mechanisms don't really help him that much and he tends to struggle and flounder ( this happened a lot at school prior to his diagnosis when the teachers just thought he was being difficult. )

scrapy said:

I would be tempted to write the letter on behalf of your son. You've done a good job on here of explaining how your sons disability has led him to make the choices he did on that day. Include as much detail as you can as long as its relevant and also any supporting evidence you may have. I'd also stress that you've educated your son what to do differently in the future. You may also wish to enclose a cheque for the fare if that went unpaid on the day. I would be surprised if after doing that this matter went anywhere near a court, although you may be asked to pay Northerns admin costs but I wouldn't offer this straight away.

Click to expand...

Appreciate the reply scrapy.

As the unpaid amount of his fare that day amount to about 20 pence ( he did purchase a ticket - eventually - for the Warrington Central to Manchester Piccadilly part of the journey )I'm not sure that they might regard a cheque for that small amount as being a bit flippant.

Might we be better to suggest that he would be happy to pay any fines and addition charges/admin costs as a matter of course ( baring in mind that he now realises that he was in error and his actions could be viewed as trying to avoid payment ).

I think your advice to write a letter in support of our son is excellent and I think we would include a copy of his AS diagnosis.

porcytree said:

Are you able to suggest how we could word our reply in order to make this a possibility.

Click to expand...

As has been said above, I think the explanation that you gave to us in your original post, is more or less what your son wants to say. Does your son have anything from whoever diagnosed him with Asperger's that confirms (a) that he has been diagnosed and (b) how this affects his ability to function in everyday life? I ask this because sadly there are people who will falsely claim to have a disability in the hope that it will get them a more sympathetic hearing than they deserve. So if your son is prepared to share documentation of his diagnosis, that would probably be a sensible thing to do

(and I now see from your posting while I was writing this that you are thinking along the same lines)

Fawkes Cat said:

As has been said above, I think the explanation that you gave to us in your original post, is more or less what your son wants to say. Does your son have anything from whoever diagnosed him with Asperger's that confirms (a) that he has been diagnosed and (b) how this affects his ability to function in everyday life? I ask this because sadly there are people who will falsely claim to have a disability in the hope that it will get them a more sympathetic hearing than they deserve. So if your son is prepared to share documentation of his diagnosis, that would probably be a sensible thing to do

(and I now see from your posting while I was writing this that you are thinking along the same lines)

Click to expand...

Thanks Fawkes Cat.

Yup, as you've noticed, he does have his original diagnosis which also gives some details of a number of his "particular" character traits. Hopefully, this might at least prevent them from proceeding to court - I think in that eventuality he would probably submit a guilty plea in absentia. There is no way he could cope with the stresses of a Court appearance.

porcytree said:

Hopefully, this might at least prevent them from proceeding to court - I think in that eventuality he would probably submit a guilty plea in absentia. There is no way he could cope with the stresses of a Court appearance.

Click to expand...

If the matter proceeded to Court then it would, in all likelihood, proceed through the Single Justice Procedure. This does not require you to physically attend Court if you submit a guilty plea. You can submit mitigating circumstances in the guilty plea form that is sent with summonses for such cases.

Thankyou all so far for your advice.

I think we will get our son to outline details of what actually happened - as per the request by the Debt Recovery manager and a letter of apology etc etc, along with a covering letter & his diagnosis to hopefully explain how his condition affected his actions on that day.

Thanks again to everyone.

porcytree said:

No...he had probably around 20 minutes at Warrington but, as centraltrains mentions above, he can get very stuck into a routine due to his Aspergers ( in this case - get on train and purchase his ticket on the journey from the inspector ) it simply didn't occur to him to go to find a ticket machine.(it's not something he has ever had to do before so it wouldn't have been apparent to him that he could do this )

Click to expand...

I appreciate that, but (and I know this sounds harsh, it's not deliberately so) the TOC may well take the line that if he's able to be out and about by himself then he has to be held to the same standard as everybody else.

So don't treat his Asperger's as an excuse, but as an explanation, which seems to be what you are doing.

Fawkes Cat said:

after that time there will be no obligation to mention it, or for it to show up on a standard DBS check.

Click to expand...

The official terminology is perhaps misleading. The check that only shows unspent convictions is the "basic" check.

https://www.gov.uk/dbs-check-applicant-criminal-record

@porcytree, how long do you have to reply?

You might upload a photo of their letter, and your draft, for people to comment on.

some bloke said:

@porcytree, how long do you have to reply?

You might upload a photo of their letter, and your draft, for people to comment on.

Click to expand...

I will certainly do that.

We have 14 days to reply to the letter from the date it was sent ( 17/06/19 ) so our reply would be due on 30th June ( if my maths is correct )

porcytree said:

I will certainly do that.

Click to expand...

(I should have added "with identifying details removed")

Unfortunately the situation is that by choosing to board a train at a station with ticketing facilities, your son committed a criminal offence. This was escalated by choosing not to purchase a ticket during the ample changing time at Warrington, choosing not to seek out the guard on board any of the trains, and giving the wrong starting station on multiple occasions.

You’re not entitled to “pay the inspector on board” unless you’ve joined at a station without working ticket facilities.

Luckily, Northern are usually amenable to resolving these situations by issuing a £80 Penalty Fake (administrative cost) plus the unpaid fare and this is what is likely to happen on this occasion. I think it’s very unlikely to go to court.

If your son receives PIP he should apply for a Disabled Person’s Railcard, as in most instances this will be accepted to purchase tickets onboard/at the destination, as well as giving a 34% discount to him and a travelling companion.

island said:

as in most instances this will be accepted to purchase tickets onboard/at the destination,

Click to expand...

Whilst a Disabled Railcard holder may be permitted to buy tickets on board, it should be stressed that holding the railcard does not automatically convey any such rights. Tickets should always be bought at the earliest opportunity.

Haywain said:

Whilst a Disabled Railcard holder may be permitted to buy tickets on board, it should be stressed that holding the railcard does not automatically convey any such rights. Tickets should always be bought at the earliest opportunity.

Click to expand...

Indeed. To paraphrase the DSB T&Cs, holders may purchase on board without penalty if their disability means that they can't take advantage of the ticket vending facilities. For example, if the only ticket machine isn't accessible by a wheelchair user.

najaB said:

Indeed. To paraphrase the DSB T&Cs, holders may purchase on board without penalty if their disability means that they can't take advantage of the ticket vending facilities. For example, if the only ticket machine isn't accessible by a wheelchair user.

Click to expand...

Has anyone ever managed to argue inaccessibility due to anxiety?

centraltrains said:

Has anyone ever managed to argue inaccessibility due to anxiety?

Click to expand...

I am sure it will have been argued before, but I suspect that in the case of a mental disability, some level of evidence may be requested to substantiate the claim, since it is much harder to empirically judge compared to a physical disability (though there are still cases of the latter which cannot be empirically judged).

I think it would, however, take a strong supporting medical report for such an argument to stand up in Court.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I think it would, however, take a strong supporting medical report for such an argument to stand up in Court.

Click to expand...

One would imagine that someone with that level of anxiety in public situations would naturally be agoraphobic, and so it's unlikely that they would be traveling by train.

najaB said:

One would imagine that someone with that level of anxiety in public situations would naturally be agoraphobic, and so it's unlikely that they would be traveling by train.

Click to expand...

Agreed, it has to be a very particular set of circumstances in which someone has an anxiety that they have controlled to such a level they can take public transport on their own, without being accompanied to the station, and yet is unable to use ticketing facilities.

porcytree said:

Hi centraltrains.

Nope, he doesn't hold a disabled persons railcard. ( we weren't aware that AS qualified for such a card - will look into this )
Will also investigate the links you sent regarding the attention cards.

My son the "sticking to routine" king . He has routines for pretty much anything he does which is great when he is in familiar surroundings or engaged in regular activities.When things happen unexpectedly, unfortunately, his routines/coping mechanisms don't really help him that much and he tends to struggle and flounder ( this happened a lot at school prior to his diagnosis when the teachers just thought he was being difficult. )

Click to expand...

It is unlikely that someone with "Aspergers" (a term for high-functioning autism that has been deprecated since at least 2013) would qualify for a Disabled RailCard as this kind of condition does not automatically disqualify someone from obtaining a driving licence by the usual route. Also, people with "Aspergers", or the rather wider Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) term used these days, are not "sufferers", they just "are". Some people's brains are wired differently and many go on to lead full and rewarding lives.

I speak as someone who was diagnosed before 2013, who drives a car and holds a responsible position in the private sector. Yes, there are times when stuff happens, but over time I've developed coping strategies to reduce the risk of things going pear-shaped. I'm pretty good at acting "human" these days (although I can still have my moments). I wish you and your son well.

FenMan said:

It is unlikely that someone with "Aspergers" (a term for high-functioning autism that has been deprecated since at least 2013) would qualify for a Disabled RailCard as this kind of condition does not automatically disqualify someone from obtaining a driving licence by the usual route. Also, people with "Aspergers", or the rather wider Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) term used these days, are not "sufferers", they just "are". Some people's brains are wired differently and many go on to lead full and rewarding lives.

I speak as someone who was diagnosed before 2013, who drives a car and holds a responsible position in the private sector. Yes, there are times when stuff happens, but over time I've developed coping strategies to reduce the risk of things going pear-shaped. I'm pretty good at acting "human" these days (although I can still have my moments). I wish you and your son well.

Click to expand...

As island stated, the edibility is usually if you are eligible for PIP, and that just varies on the person in question and what stage in life they are at. Being illegible is arguably much better for the person overall.