ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

RLBH · 21 Jun 2019

jingsmonty said:
5+2 does create major issues - you'd lose half the South/East platforms at Inverness for a start. Inverness struggles for capacity at times already. Agree that in an ideal world, a uniform fleet would be better - just waiting for the day when a 4+2 ends up on a 5+2 diagram!

Doing a Queen Street on Inverness station to take over some of the concourse for longer platforms would be ideal, though I'll eat my hat if it happens. Not least because it would mean the former station hotel lost its' car parking.

jingsmonty said:
I think that would be fine, 6-8 would be acceptable. I just can't get my head around that there doesn't seem to be any way to utilise the powwer car van area

Surely some of the kit that's being stored in disused toilets could be rehomed in power car van space to make more space in carriages available for passenger-facing uses? Jump leads and couplers certainly could, I would have thought. I can see why a communications cupboard probably does need to be in the trailers rather than a power car, and whilst I'm doubtful about the need for a secure trolley storage area (170s and 158s cope just fine without one) there may be factors I'm not considering.

Still, just shifting the rescue gear to a power car would give you 4 bike spaces in a 2+4 without using the power cars; presumably it's not beyond the wit of man to make sure that the 2+5s have an extra 2 bike spaces and 1 toilet, whichever design of trailer that turns out to be.

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InOban · 21 Jun 2019

ScotRail are seeking bids to fit retention tanks to the classic sets this autumn. Obviously they have abandoned hope of receiving sufficient refurbished sets before the January deadline.

Northhighland · 21 Jun 2019

InOban said:
ScotRail are seeking bids to fit retention tanks to the classic sets this autumn. Obviously they have abandoned hope of receiving sufficient refurbished sets before the January deadline.

That is sensible if somewhat late in the day. What effect will that have on timetable? Or will they have some short term additional classics?

gingertom · 21 Jun 2019

InOban said:
ScotRail are seeking bids to fit retention tanks to the classic sets this autumn. Obviously they have abandoned hope of receiving sufficient refurbished sets before the January deadline.

I'm sure Springburn works would be up for doing this work.

mcmad · 21 Jun 2019

Springburn is shut now isn't it?

BBC have picked up the story :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48710279

gingertom · 21 Jun 2019

mcmad said:
Springburn is shut now isn't it?

BBC have picked up the story :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48710279

Closure planned due to lack of work seems to be plenty going about though.

hexagon789 · 21 Jun 2019

chuff chuff said:
Yeah it's been a wee while since I noted it but yes roughly 2 and half minutes and two and a half miles to hit the ton.Obviously that's not hanging around but no not straight to notch five but you don't wait long.

Very nippy indeed

47271 said:
What's funny about the 100 limit on that 'flash in the pan' straight is that it predates BR HSTs on the HML - it's been there since at least 1980!

I believe most 75+ limits in Scotland were introduced at the same time as HSTs.

Highlandspring · 21 Jun 2019

mcmad said:
Springburn is shut now isn't it?

It hasn’t closed yet, no. Stll doing class 320s for ScotRail.

ajrm · 21 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
Very nippy indeed

I believe most 75+ limits in Scotland were introduced at the same time as HSTs.

I'm sure somebody can provide the exact information, but IIRC there was a very low blanket speed limit in Scotland until the 1980s: perhaps 75mph. It was one of Chris Green's early initiatives to get it increased. He was certainly responsible for introducing differential speed limits for HSTs.

pt_mad · 21 Jun 2019

InOban said:
ScotRail are seeking bids to fit retention tanks to the classic sets this autumn. Obviously they have abandoned hope of receiving sufficient refurbished sets before the January deadline.

Rail magazine issue 875 seemed to confirm this and said 'Derogations could be sought by ScotRail for the continued use of 'classic' High Speed Trains beyond the end of the year.' (goes on)...
'Sliding doors will not be fitted, but there is the possibility that retention tanks could be. Suggestions regarding similar problems south of the border on East Midlands Trains have focused on the possibility of staff acting as stewards at doors.'

Interestingly, an article above that in the same issue of Rail on the subject of HST PRM compliance issues specifically at East Midlands Trains, says 'But the work does not include the sliding doors because "these are not a specific requirement of PRM"'.

hexagon789 · 21 Jun 2019

ajrm said:
I'm sure somebody can provide the exact information, but IIRC there was a very low blanket speed limit in Scotland until the 1980s: perhaps 75mph. It was one of Chris Green's early initiatives to get it increased. He was certainly responsible for introducing differential speed limits for HSTs.

Certainly 75 until the end of steam. Not sure when it was raised on the Scottish portions of the ECML or WCML, but I think the first over 75mph internal route would be Edinburgh-Glasgow when it went over to 90mph Class 27 shuttles in 1972.

ajrm · 21 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
Certainly 75 until the end of steam. Not sure when it was raised on the Scottish portions of the ECML or WCML, but I think the first over 75mph internal route would be Edinburgh-Glasgow when it went over to 90mph Class 27 shuttles in 1972.

That rings a bell, I think the E&G was the exception and everything else remained 75mph for years afterwards. The source for this was an interview with Richard Bowker (I think) in RAIL some years ago but I don't have it to hand.

hexagon789 · 21 Jun 2019

ajrm said:
That rings a bell, I think the E&G was the exception and everything else remained 75mph for years afterwards. The source for this was an interview with Richard Bowker (I think) in RAIL some years ago but I don't have it to hand.

Very likely. I know in 1982 there were certainly 90 sections on the Scottish Central (Stirling-Perth), but not on the Perth & Dundee in 1979 so I'm guessing they came in between 1979 and 1982.

Highlandspring · 21 Jun 2019

Incidentally I note this evening that the three HST trailers which had sat outside Glasgow Works for a year or more have been moved, either inside or away somewhere by road. This has happened within the last week or so.

hexagon789 · 21 Jun 2019

Highlandspring said:
Incidentally I note this evening that the three HST trailers which had sat outside Glasgow Works for a year or more have been moved, either inside or away somewhere by road. This has happened within the last week or so.

Were these simply spares or something?

Highland37 · 22 Jun 2019

So, all sets meant to be in service by now, 6 delivered of 26.

To deal with Wabtec's delay, classic sets are brought in.

Now, so huge are the delays, that the classic sets themselves are having considerable sums spent on them to bring them to the toilet level the refurbished sets are meant to have. Don't give that contract to Wabtec!

pt_mad · 22 Jun 2019

Highland37 said:
So, all sets meant to be in service by now, 6 delivered of 26.

To deal with Wabtec's delay, classic sets are brought in.

Now, so huge are the delays, that the classic sets themselves are having considerable sums spent on them to bring them to the toilet level the refurbished sets are meant to have. Don't give that contract to Wabtec!

Who pays for the PRM modifications on the classic sets? Perhaps it's the ROSCO and with that they will future proof their sets to be offered to other TOCs who may need temporary stock in the future? XC for example could use such an arrangement to get out of a short term fix?

gingertom · 22 Jun 2019

pt_mad said:
XC for example could use such an arrangement to get out of a short term fix?

makes a lot of sense from the relieving overcrowding point of view, but unless it makes sense from a bean counters point of view it won't happen.

DannyMich2018 · 22 Jun 2019

Highland37 said:
So, all sets meant to be in service by now, 6 delivered of 26.

To deal with Wabtec's delay, classic sets are brought in.

Now, so huge are the delays, that the classic sets themselves are having considerable sums spent on them to bring them to the toilet level the refurbished sets are meant to have. Don't give that contract to Wabtec!

It's beyond a joke now to everyone. I think only 5 have still been delivered which is only 19% of the total to be done....

hwl · 22 Jun 2019

Highland37 said:
So, all sets meant to be in service by now, 6 delivered of 26.

To deal with Wabtec's delay, classic sets are brought in.

Now, so huge are the delays, that the classic sets themselves are having considerable sums spent on them to bring them to the toilet level the refurbished sets are meant to have. Don't give that contract to Wabtec!

Or just not to Wabtec Doncaster

BRX · 22 Jun 2019

Retention tanks are separate issue from PRM regs aren't they? They are down to agreements with network rail, the unions etc.

Cashew · 22 Jun 2019

InOban said:
ScotRail are seeking bids to fit retention tanks to the classic sets this autumn. Obviously they have abandoned hope of receiving sufficient refurbished sets before the January deadline.

Am I right in thinking that Wabtec were given the refurbishment contract because they are specialised in fitting the sliding doors

hexagon789 · 22 Jun 2019

Cashew said:
Am I right in thinking that Wabtec were given the refurbishment contract because they are specialised in fitting the sliding doors

Come to think of it, who did the Chiltern Mk3 doors?

Cashew · 22 Jun 2019

Cashew said:
Am I right in thinking that Wabtec were given the refurbishment contract because they are specialised in fitting the sliding doors

Are the doors part of the December deadline or is it just the fitting of the retention toilets or both?.

hexagon789 · 22 Jun 2019

Cashew said:
Are the doors part of the December deadline or is it just the fitting of the retention toilets or both?.

The PRM-TSI is just the doors. Not sure about the retention tanks, many mainline charter rakes aren't equipped.

mde · 22 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
The rumours about ditching the buffet are certainly being believed by a handful of the actual catering crew themselves. I was having a chat with one a couple of weeks ago after they had pushed their trolley up and down the HST, who was saying as much.

Well, based on a recent tender issued by Abellio ScotRail, there's definitely some changes afoot…

Abellio ScotRail intends to implement a transformational programme of activity during 2019 to address areas of under-performance and deliver a step-change in the catering services provided to passengers.

Before this goes too OT, I'd note that I don't have the deductive powers of our usual transport correspondent (Al Dalton), but, that tender does suggest it's more than just a change of coffee supplier. Could it be outsourcing?

43096 · 22 Jun 2019

Cashew said:
Am I right in thinking that Wabtec were given the refurbishment contract because they are specialised in fitting the sliding doors

Wabtec came up with the design.

GrimShady · 22 Jun 2019

So what sort of penalty exits here for Wabtec/ScotRail when the end of the year comes?

I don't expect any more than another 4 or 5 sets to be delivered by then.

Cashew · 22 Jun 2019

43096 said:
Wabtec came up with the design.

But are they the only firm capable of the work ?.

hexagon789 · 22 Jun 2019

mde said:
Well, based on a recent tender issued by Abellio ScotRail, there's definitely some changes afoot…

Before this goes too OT, I'd note that I don't have the deductive powers of our usual transport correspondent (Al Dalton), but, that tender does suggest it's more than just a change of coffee supplier. Could it be outsourcing?

Certainly looks as though they could be outsourcing catering.

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