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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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hwl

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Railperf said:
Remember the majority of the diesel only section north of Market Harborough to Leicester requires no more than 110mph. The only other section of 125mph track lays between Leicester and Trent Junction - the remainder is 110mph or lower - which would not require the same power levels for top speed, but definitely better acceleration to 110mph than Class 802's currently do. How about a hybrid option that uses battery power to boost diesel acceleration? Hitachi were involved in the Hayabusa HST trial. So they have the know-how.
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The gradients are unhelpful too.

There are also plans to upgrade some bit of the MML by 5-10mph along side the bigger Market H. upgrades hence more 115/120 in the future where it is currently 110 etc.

The MTU Battery solutions would help for a few minutes
 
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Railperf

Railperf

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hwl said:
And also starts to become pretty heavy too
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There are unpowered coaches on a 9-car 802 - at least two non driving coaches. But yes the unpowered driving coaches seem to have electrical equipment - probably transformers underneath.
 
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swt_passenger

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Railperf said:
There are unpowered coaches on a 9-car 802 - at least two non driving coaches. But yes the unpowered driving coaches seem to have electrical equipment - probably transformers underneath.
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Definitely the transformers. It’s why the driving vehicles weigh almost as much as the GU fitted ones, so they ended up with outside frame bogies as well. At one stage they were expected to have inside frame bogies like the pure trailers, but it apparently wasn’t possible.
 
Jozhua

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Is it likely the 222's will stay if a new bi mode fleet is ordered or is the whole intercity fleet likely to be replaced?

The 222's could definitely find a home with XC, but I think they're a solid fleet and with some interior refurbs I'd be happy to see them stay.
 
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hwl

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Jozhua said:
Is it likely the 222's will stay if a new bi mode fleet is ordered or is the whole intercity fleet likely to be replaced?

The 222's could definitely find a home with XC, but I think they're a solid fleet and with some interior refurbs I'd be happy to see them stay.
Click to expand...
Complete intercity fleet replacement.
 
cactustwirly

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Jozhua said:
Is it likely the 222's will stay if a new bi mode fleet is ordered or is the whole intercity fleet likely to be replaced?

The 222's could definitely find a home with XC, but I think they're a solid fleet and with some interior refurbs I'd be happy to see them stay.
Click to expand...

The whole IC fleet is being replaced
 
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whhistle

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Jozhua said:
Might be sad to see the 222's go, they're probably one of my favorite trains.
Click to expand...
I'd expect them to be gobbled up by Cross Country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will be a rolling replacement of the entire train fleet by December 2022:

- Replacement of Class 153s in first 6 months
with 156s from Anglia (nothing factual on this, but seems likely). But there aren't even near enough.

- Electric trains for Corby from December 2020
Class 360s

- Regional fleet fully replaced by modern trains by December 2021
The image shows 170s. Possibly from West Midlands Trains / swap with Scotrail for Sprinters?

- New bi-mode trains introduced in December 2022
No manufacturer has been decided yet

By the end of 2022 the fleet will be made up of 3 fleets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Abellio are using only 170s, they're going to need to find a few more to replace [all the 62 sprinter units] come 2021.
West Mids 170s: 23
Anglia 170s: 12 Most/all of these will go to TfW
Scotrail: 5 (if they kept the 34 units wiki suggests)
TOTAL: 28

If EMR sent their 156/158 (with the Anglia 156s) (50 units) to Scotland in exchange for the (34) Turbostars, there would be well enough to allow some Sprinters to run doubled.

I can't remember if Northern had any 170s earmarked?

It means EMR could end up with a total of 62 class 170 units - the same number of Sprinters that needs replacing on EMR.

A lot of juggling but not sure how else they could end up with enough 170s.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

Jorge Da Silva

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cactustwirly said:
No the regional fleet is being replaced by 170s
Click to expand...

I thought they were replacing the 153’s with 170’s and 156’s in the short term and then from 2022 they are replacing them with new stock.

I was under the impression that 153’s would be gone within 6 months of the franchise and then in 2022 the entire regional fleet will be replaced.
 
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Qwerty133

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whhistle said:
I'd expect them to be gobbled up by Cross Country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will be a rolling replacement of the entire train fleet by December 2022:

- Replacement of Class 153s in first 6 months
with 156s from Anglia (nothing factual on this, but seems likely). But there aren't even near enough.

- Electric trains for Corby from December 2020
Class 360s

- Regional fleet fully replaced by modern trains by December 2021
The image shows 170s. Possibly from West Midlands Trains / swap with Scotrail for Sprinters?

- New bi-mode trains introduced in December 2022
No manufacturer has been decided yet

By the end of 2022 the fleet will be made up of 3 fleets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Abellio are using only 170s, they're going to need to find a few more to replace [all the 62 sprinter units] come 2021.
West Mids 170s: 23
Anglia 170s: 12 Most/all of these will go to TfW
Scotrail: 5 (if they kept the 34 units wiki suggests)
TOTAL: 28

If EMR sent their 156/158 (with the Anglia 156s) (50 units) to Scotland in exchange for the (34) Turbostars, there would be well enough to allow some Sprinters to run doubled.

I can't remember if Northern had any 170s earmarked?

It means EMR could end up with a total of 62 class 170 units - the same number of Sprinters that needs replacing on EMR.

A lot of juggling but not sure how else they could end up with enough 170s.
Click to expand...
Another possibility could be the XC 170s being replaced by 175s to free up 27, there are also the 171 rumours although it is hard to see what would release them.
 
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hwl

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whhistle said:
I'd expect them to be gobbled up by Cross Country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will be a rolling replacement of the entire train fleet by December 2022:

- Replacement of Class 153s in first 6 months
with 156s from Anglia (nothing factual on this, but seems likely). But there aren't even near enough.

- Electric trains for Corby from December 2020
Class 360s

- Regional fleet fully replaced by modern trains by December 2021
The image shows 170s. Possibly from West Midlands Trains / swap with Scotrail for Sprinters?

- New bi-mode trains introduced in December 2022
No manufacturer has been decided yet

By the end of 2022 the fleet will be made up of 3 fleets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Abellio are using only 170s, they're going to need to find a few more to replace [all the 62 sprinter units] come 2021.
West Mids 170s: 23
Anglia 170s: 12 Most/all of these will go to TfW
Scotrail: 5 (if they kept the 34 units wiki suggests)
TOTAL: 28

If EMR sent their 156/158 (with the Anglia 156s) (50 units) to Scotland in exchange for the (34) Turbostars, there would be well enough to allow some Sprinters to run doubled.

I can't remember if Northern had any 170s earmarked?

It means EMR could end up with a total of 62 class 170 units - the same number of Sprinters that needs replacing on EMR.

A lot of juggling but not sure how else they could end up with enough 170s.
Click to expand...

The new intercity fleet procurement had them introduced from Dec 2022 not all in service by then so it won't be an entirely new fleet by 2022.
 
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hwl

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Qwerty133 said:
Another possibility could be the XC 170s being replaced by 175s to free up 27, there are also the 171 rumours although it is hard to see what would release them.
Click to expand...
171 rumours appeared to be the 5x 170s that southern didn't take but leased back to Scotrail.
 
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whhistle

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LOL The Irony said:
They could do a straight swap with XC. All the 222's for all the 170's (27 222's for 29 170's).
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22x can't run into Stansted Airport though.
Otherwise might be a nice idea.

End doors don't matter as they've run 220s on the local Leicester to Birmingham before.
IF (and a big IF) there was any problem with dwell times, they'd make them up by being faster off the blocks.

I also wonder if Abellio have antisipated Skegness travel during the summer with the unit swaps. The 156s have large luggage spaces.
 
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whhistle

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hwl said:
The new intercity fleet procurement had them introduced from Dec 2022 not all in service by then so it won't be an entirely new fleet by 2022.
Click to expand...
Just passing on internal info that I received from an... err... anonymous internal source.
It might just be aims but that's what Abellio are saying.
 
H

hwl

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whhistle said:
Just passing on internal info that I received from an... err... anonymous internal source.
It might just be aims but that's what Abellio are saying.
Click to expand...
The devil is always in the detail! A real danger of Chinese whispers things get passed along.

New fleet "introduced in December 2022" agrees with the tender, it doesn't imply complete replacement by then, just having the first unit in service.
 
Domh245

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Remember, sprinter replacement doesn't need to be 1:1. EMT's 153s spend a lot of time doubled up, and in loosing liverpool - nottingham that's a lot fewer units required as well. Couple that with some smart diagramming that joins services together (as seems to be proposed) and it's eminently possible that 28 170s will be sufficient to run the regional services.
 
hooverboy

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whhistle said:
I'd expect them to be gobbled up by Cross Country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will be a rolling replacement of the entire train fleet by December 2022:

- Replacement of Class 153s in first 6 months
with 156s from Anglia (nothing factual on this, but seems likely). But there aren't even near enough.

- Electric trains for Corby from December 2020
Class 360s

- Regional fleet fully replaced by modern trains by December 2021
The image shows 170s. Possibly from West Midlands Trains / swap with Scotrail for Sprinters?

- New bi-mode trains introduced in December 2022
No manufacturer has been decided yet

By the end of 2022 the fleet will be made up of 3 fleets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Abellio are using only 170s, they're going to need to find a few more to replace [all the 62 sprinter units] come 2021.
West Mids 170s: 23
Anglia 170s: 12 Most/all of these will go to TfW
Scotrail: 5 (if they kept the 34 units wiki suggests)
TOTAL: 28

If EMR sent their 156/158 (with the Anglia 156s) (50 units) to Scotland in exchange for the (34) Turbostars, there would be well enough to allow some Sprinters to run doubled.

I can't remember if Northern had any 170s earmarked?

It means EMR could end up with a total of 62 class 170 units - the same number of Sprinters that needs replacing on EMR.

A lot of juggling but not sure how else they could end up with enough 170s.
Click to expand...

isn't the GWR stuff coming off lease soon?
strikes me that the 165/166 fleets they've got would be about the right size (57 sets but quite a bit more in way of carriages).
That would also give a degree of fleet uniformity.
the added bonus would be:
1)lower running cost than 170's
2)better acceleration than 170's
3)all stock 90mph capable, so should give slightly improved running times.
4)decent luggage capacity


EMT do have quite a few diagrams where you'll see either 2* 153 or 156+153 in operation.
 
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El Magnifico

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hooverboy said:
isn't the GWR stuff coming off lease soon?
strikes me that the 165/166 fleets they've got would be about the right size (57 sets but quite a bit more in way of carriages).
That would also give a degree of fleet uniformity.
the added bonus would be:
1)lower running cost than 170's
2)better acceleration than 170's
3)all stock 90mph capable, so should give slightly improved running times.
4)decent luggage capacity


EMT do have quite a few diagrams where you'll see either 2* 153 or 156+153 in operation.
Click to expand...
165s are not air-conditioned. Abellio have stated that all of their EMR fleet will have aircon.
 
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swt_passenger

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hooverboy said:
isn't the GWR stuff coming off lease soon?
strikes me that the 165/166 fleets they've got would be about the right size (57 sets but quite a bit more in way of carriages)...
Click to expand...
There are no 165/166 coming off lease at all. The whole point of GWR’s internal shuffle is to use them to allow other stock to be released...
 
TT-ONR-NRN

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Where has it actually been confirmed the Corby’s will be 360s? Has it been confirmed for definite or is it just you all guessing? Personally I would have largely preferred 379s :(
 
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Qwerty133

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Domh245 said:
Remember, sprinter replacement doesn't need to be 1:1. EMT's 153s spend a lot of time doubled up, and in loosing liverpool - nottingham that's a lot fewer units required as well. Couple that with some smart diagramming that joins services together (as seems to be proposed) and it's eminently possible that 28 170s will be sufficient to run the regional services.
Click to expand...
Its very unlikely that a reduction of 34 units will be possible even considering the movement of Liverpool-Nottingham away from the franchise. This reduction would be equivilent to saying that only 5 153s run (or stop for maintenance) singularly and that the 158s were only used on Liverpool-Nottingham services, neither of which is true. As a quick estimate I would guess that EMT requires at least 40 units in the local fleet even considering the paired running of 153s and the loss of Liverpool-Nottingham. Realistically Skegness is likely to require 15 units on summer Saturdays if the new intercity fleet do not continue to cover some services.
 
cactustwirly

cactustwirly

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TT-ONR-NRN said:
Where has it actually been confirmed the Corby’s will be 360s? Has it been confirmed for definite or is it just you all guessing? Personally I would have largely preferred 379s :(
Click to expand...

By lots of rumours (plus the photos), the 360s were available sooner and probably had cheaper leasing costs
 
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ainsworth74

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cactustwirly said:
By lots of rumours (plus the photos), the 360s were available sooner and probably had cheaper leasing costs
Click to expand...
Just hope that someone pays out for a thorough refurbishment. Otherwise the good people of Corby will in be in for quite a shock going from 222s to 360s and not in a good way!
 
dk1

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ainsworth74 said:
Just hope that someone pays out for a thorough refurbishment. Otherwise the good people of Corby will in be in for quite a shock going from 222s to 360s and not in a good way!
Click to expand...
I thought the plan was to go 2+2 & give them almost Intercity style treatment. I always wonder though if they don't bother what are those passengers really going to do about it?
 
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