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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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ainsworth74

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I thought the plan was to go 2+2 & give them almost Intercity style treatment.

That's what we've all said we hope would happen but I'm not sure if that's been confirmed anywhere?

I always wonder though if they don't bother what are those passengers really going to do about it?

Well, nothing I suppose. Some will perhaps no longer travel and drive instead or make other arrangements (depending on the reason for travelling). Others will perhaps be put off by word of mouth (and potentially word of local media). That being said I'd have thought we'd be trying to ensure that passengers get a good of a service as possible and that a significant downgrade in quality is surely to be avoided if at all possible?
 
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hexagon789

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I thought the plan was to go 2+2 & give them almost Intercity style treatment. I always wonder though if they don't bother what are those passengers really going to do about it?

I thought 360s were 2+2 seating in both classes. I assume then they are 2+3 in Standard in fact?
 

dk1

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That's what we've all said we hope would happen but I'm not sure if that's been confirmed anywhere?



Well, nothing I suppose. Some will perhaps no longer travel and drive instead or make other arrangements (depending on the reason for travelling). Others will perhaps be put off by word of mouth (and potentially word of local media). That being said I'd have thought we'd be trying to ensure that passengers get a good of a service as possible and that a significant downgrade in quality is surely to be avoided if at all possible?
I'm never that convinced that actually happens. Yes they whine & tweet their feelings of hardship yet history tells us the ticket sales & ridership continue to grow.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought 360s were 2+2 seating in both classes. I assume then they are 2+3 in Standard in fact?

Correct. Slightly better 3+2 than the 350/2s, having seat back tables and slightly fewer rows of 3 making access easier, though - the layout is more like the Class 323 in not having rows of 3 by the doors impeding access.
 

ainsworth74

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Yes they whine & tweet their feelings of hardship yet history tells us the ticket sales & ridership continue to grow.
And I guess we better hope that, no matter what we give them, that will always be the case. You might be right. Maybe it will always be the case no matter what happens. Personally I'd rather we tried to make train travel an attractive product.
 

hexagon789

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Correct. Slightly better 3+2 than the 350/2s, having seat back tables and slightly fewer rows of 3 making access easier, though - the layout is more like the Class 323 in not having rows of 3 by the doors impeding access.

Well at least while 2+3, it's better than some 2+3 arrangements.

Most certainly are 2+3 on the GEML & hence the 720s have to be the same.

Fair enough, didn't think about that tbh
 

cactustwirly

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Well at least while 2+3, it's better than some 2+3 arrangements.



Fair enough, didn't think about that tbh

It's far from acceptable when EMT charge IC level fares, lots of people use Nearby Northampton for the much cheaper fares into London.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Correct. Slightly better 3+2 than the 350/2s, having seat back tables and slightly fewer rows of 3 making access easier, though - the layout is more like the Class 323 in not having rows of 3 by the doors impeding access.
There are absolutely no standard class seat back tables on the 360/1.
 

InTheEastMids

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Don't seem to be any on the /2s either, looking at photos.

Reminder of what DfT said about the Corby electrics from the franchise announcement:

refurbished modern express trains from December 2020, with:

increased capacity
more reliable service
improved comfort
passenger information system
free on-board Wi-Fi
at-seat power sockets
USB points
air conditioning
tables at all seats
increased luggage space
on-board cycle storage


Whilst it does dodge the seat density question, it does specifically mention tables and ' improved comfort'. Draw your own conclusions...

I would say the bigger risk is that because of delays to be EMUs in Anglia-land, they end up entering service unrefurbished, causing 'outrage amongst long-suffering commuters'
 

hexagon789

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Reminder of what DfT said about the Corby electrics from the franchise announcement:

refurbished modern express trains from December 2020, with:

increased capacity
more reliable service
improved comfort
passenger information system
free on-board Wi-Fi
at-seat power sockets
USB points
air conditioning
tables at all seats
increased luggage space
on-board cycle storage


Whilst it does dodge the seat density question, it does specifically mention tables and ' improved comfort'. Draw your own conclusions...

I would say the bigger risk is that because of delays to be EMUs in Anglia-land, they end up entering service unrefurbished, causing 'outrage amongst long-suffering commuters'

I think it's more likely than not, and they definitely do not have proper tables and certainly not at all seats. Strike one to the 360s.
 

samuelmorris

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There are absolutely no standard class seat back tables on the 360/1.
Confirmed for no tables. They are very much not an intercity spec interior, even if they are a much higher standard than the rest of the EMUs we have (379s notwithstanding). Fitting them shouldn't be too difficult though.
 

Mikey C

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If the existing services hadn't been operated by 220s, I doubt anybody would be expecting Inter City style trains, but decent outer suburban units. After all the services operating to London are akin to the stopping services on the WCML and ECML.

Of course the fares should reflect this, but that's a separate issue...
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it's more likely than not, and they definitely do not have proper tables and certainly not at all seats. Strike one to the 360s.

Have we established they aren't going to gut them and fit new seats[1] and tables? While Desiros have worn very well due to the very high quality of the fittings, they've certainly been around long enough to justify that.

[1] As the Grammer E3000 frame is the same for 3+2 and 2+2, as an alternative they could just retrofit armrests and folding tables. Sort of like SWT converted the Junipers from 3+2 to 2+2 without changing the seat frames.
 

samuelmorris

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Have we established they aren't going to gut them and fit new seats[1] and tables? While Desiros have worn very well due to the very high quality of the fittings, they've certainly been around long enough to justify that.

[1] As the Grammer E3000 frame is the same for 3+2 and 2+2, as an alternative they could just retrofit armrests and folding tables. Sort of like SWT converted the Junipers from 3+2 to 2+2 without changing the seat frames.
The 360s really need a complete refit inside if they're going anywhere but a rural branch line as they're quite filthy and worn. The refurbishment TPE gave their 185s is the sort of thing I mean - not necessarily the wood, but a complete refurnishing without necessarily changing the spec all that much. Given the large increase to 12-car trains they can probably get away with reverting to 2+2 seating as well, but we shall see.
 

samuelmorris

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I'm not sure worn and filthy is the standard to which rural branch lines aspire.
Certainly not but when TOCs are running more dilapidated rolling stock it is unfortunately those routes where such stock often ends up. EMR will in no way want to launch quite an important service (if not for Corby then for the regular fast services from the other stations they will call at) with trains in the condition the GA 360/1s are in. All that said, a carpet deep clean and actually cleaning the A/C vents will probably be enough, as long as they can tolerate the mismatch colour scheme!
 

a_c_skinner

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I'm sure you are right. Unfortunately a decent clean is often railspeaked into "refurbishment".
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure worn and filthy is the standard to which rural branch lines aspire.

Realistically, though, Desiros are built well enough that all you have to do is replace seat foams, covers and carpets - the rest of it is rock solid. TPE chose to do the lighting to change to LED presumably to save fuel, but they didn't need to.

The TPE refurb, while it looks really good (if a little Eastern European 1980s LHCS in colour scheme, which is probably a perfect fit for use in Yorkshire :D ), is barely more than that (plus I think new tables and some sticky backed wood effect plastic).
 

F Great Eastern

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I'm not sure worn and filthy is the standard to which rural branch lines aspire.

Unfortunately Greater Anglia have let maintenance go a bit since they announced their new fleets and instead of doing proper jobs there has been a lot of stopgap things that has led to an awful colour scheme inside which is part FGE purple / Green and part Greater Anglia black and grey, it's a real mish-mash.

The bodywork and panels and seats themselves are in very good condition structure wise and not worn at all and don't rattle, but the trains do badly need a uniform colour scheme, a deep clean, the aircon units given a deep clean and filters changed and new carpets. Other than that they're fine.

People moaning about the 360s on their line could do worse, they could have the Renatus 321s with their shocking ride quality, blocked up plug sockets, broken PIS, awful air conditioning and overpowering lights and seats that have no view of a window whatsoever. A true case of style over substance.
 

hexagon789

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Have we established they aren't going to gut them and fit new seats[1] and tables? While Desiros have worn very well due to the very high quality of the fittings, they've certainly been around long enough to justify that.

No, I suppose not, but it's conceivable that if they need them into service asap they might rush them in without any mods at all. They might do that and then add tables.
 

Bletchleyite

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People moaning about the 360s on their line could do worse, they could have the Renatus 321s with their shocking ride quality, blocked up plug sockets, broken PIS, awful air conditioning and overpowering lights and seats that have no view of a window whatsoever. A true case of style over substance.

I don't share your great dislike here, but of the commuter EMUs the Desiros are in my view without a doubt the best. Superb build quality and decent interiors too. Only let down by the poor ride (which is noticed not just by enthusiasts).
 

Helvellyn

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26m and 24m are the respective vehicle lengths for the two products (800 variants and Aventra). The platforms at St Pancras are 260m. I think Long Eaton platforms are too short and maybe one other station. Corby EMUs will eventually be 240m and all the major MML stations have 240m+ platforms. It's a good standard for a timetable and service change that will use up all the remaining intercity capacity on the MML.
I think you will find some platform lengthening is required at Wellingborough and Kettering alone for 12-car 240m EMU formations. Wellingborough will be interesting because with four tracking I am assuming a reinstatement of platform 4 and a pretty big build out of platform 3.
 
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