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Was Kent Coast services actually that bad pre HS1?

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Sad Sprinter

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Took a trip to the Far East the other day (Broadstairs) and coming from South West London, it’s a shame how awkward it is getting to Kent nowadays:

1. One semi fast train an hour from Victoria
2. Trekking across London to St Pancras
3. Don’t even bother with Charing Cross

It got me thinking, was travelling to Kent before Hs1 really that torturous? Granted I’m a Central division man and the Eastern has always seemed like an alternative universe to me, but didn’t they have fast express services regularly out to Margate/Ramsgate?
 
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yorksrob

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Took a trip to the Far East the other day (Broadstairs) and coming from South West London, it’s a shame how awkward it is getting to Kent nowadays:

1. One semi fast train an hour from Victoria
2. Trekking across London to St Pancras
3. Don’t even bother with Charing Cross

It got me thinking, was travelling to Kent before Hs1 really that torturous? Granted I’m a Central division man and the Eastern has always seemed like an alternative universe to me, but didn’t they have fast express services regularly out to Margate/Ramsgate?

Not really.

As well as the express trains, we also had semi-fasts which didn't feel as tortuous as the stopper. That said, it was a lot more difficult finding a seat on the Charing Cross train at Ashford.
 

Welly

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I remember that way back in 1989, I went Canterbury to visit the University of Kent campus and was shocked at the train taking 2 hours to travel from Victoria to Canterbury!!
 

Clip

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Took a trip to the Far East the other day (Broadstairs) and coming from South West London, it’s a shame how awkward it is getting to Kent nowadays:

1. One semi fast train an hour from Victoria
2. Trekking across London to St Pancras
3. Don’t even bother with Charing Cross

It got me thinking, was travelling to Kent before Hs1 really that torturous? Granted I’m a Central division man and the Eastern has always seemed like an alternative universe to me, but didn’t they have fast express services regularly out to Margate/Ramsgate?

To be fair getting anywhere in East Kent is going to be an effort from south west london but im not sure 15 mins on the vic line to St Pancakes can be classed as a trek!!

However the fast trains from Ramsgate/Margate from memory only took about 1hr45 or something to Victoria as they missed out loads of stops and were fast from Rochester to Bromley sth then fast to vic. Been that long since I went on that line now i dont even know what it does :D got to be hs1 all the way
 

Dr Hoo

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Old habits may die hard but getting to St Pancras isn’t really much of a ‘trek’ from most parts of London, especially now that Thameslink is largely sorted out. Plenty of lifts and escalators at many stations on the way.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Old habits may die hard but getting to St Pancras isn’t really much of a ‘trek’ from most parts of London, especially now that Thameslink is largely sorted out. Plenty of lifts and escalators at many stations on the way.

It isn’t your right. Although the Victoria Line at any time of day can suck the life out of you. Particularly when you have to make a counter-intuitive journey north to go south again.
 

yorksrob

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Weren’t Charing Cross trains routes via Maidstone for a while?

Yes, there was a fast from the Kent Coast via Ashford calling at Bearstead, Maidstone East, then fast to London Bridge. It was a good one to catch if you could get it (usually CEP formed with a buffet trolley).
 

30907

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Depends how far back you go pre HS2.
The Chatham route fasts were introduced in 1959 with stops at Bromley S, Chatham, Gillingham, Whitstable etc, with a Dover portion from Gillingham serving Sittingbourne, Faversham, Canterbury E. Then the split was moved to Faversham mid-60s as an economy measure, Rainham and Rochester stops came in to reflect changed travel patterns, giving you the pattern Clip refers to, but at least running half hourly instead of hourly. Victoria to Canterbury E on a "fast" was originslly 88min, later 83min.
The problem is that the real commuter growth since 1959 has been from the Medway Towns and the Longfield/Meopham area, not the Kent Coast.
 

Dr Hoo

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Even in BR’s day senior management seemed unable to get their heads round how remote East Kent actually was. As a junior local operating manager there were occasional urgent summons to conference meetings with the Southern GM or NSE senior management at Waterloo. Two hours’ notice if you were at Ramsgate wasn’t always enough. Colleagues from Bournemouth or Salisbury sniggered as one arrived late for the inevitable public ‘chewing off’ by the Great Man.
 

Dr Hoo

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“Ah. I see that Thanet has finally condescended to grace us with its presence.” “Did you enjoy your long lunch.” Etc.:oops:
 

Taunton

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I used the Kent trains from time to time, Dover, Canterbury and elsewhere. It always seemed a bit strange that the two main express routes, via Chatham and via Tonbridge, crossed over one another at Chiselhurst to go to opposite sides of Central London.

It also seemed to me that Victoria is one of the more difficult stations to get to in London, maybe that's just a feature of where I was often starting from, and it seems illogical to go west to get a train going east. Because there's hardly any 4-track between Victoria and East Kent you were very much at the vagaries of the interleaved local services.

Charing Cross always seemed the better option and the speed of the hourly express to Ashford was impressive. It was faster to get to Canterbury this way, crossing over the "other line" yet again in the country outside, but it led to the West station which was a dilapadated shed compared to the East station.
 

RichJF

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I remember that way back in 1989, I went Canterbury to visit the University of Kent campus and was shocked at the train taking 2 hours to travel from Victoria to Canterbury!!

I studied at UKC from 2009-2012 & used to be able to get from uni to home (Redhill) via Tonbridge in under 1hr30 mins if I timed it right at Tonbridge by getting the fast Ashford-Tonbridge service then dashing across to Pl 1.

After HS1 came in the classic service was tortuous and slow & I actually bought a motorbike to pop back home and get to places round Kent as a result.
 

Nick Nation

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Depends how far back you go pre HS2.
The Chatham route fasts were introduced in 1959 with stops at Bromley S, Chatham, Gillingham, Whitstable etc, with a Dover portion from Gillingham serving Sittingbourne, Faversham, Canterbury E. Then the split was moved to Faversham mid-60s as an economy measure, Rainham and Rochester stops came in to reflect changed travel patterns, giving you the pattern Clip refers to, but at least running half hourly instead of hourly. Victoria to Canterbury E on a "fast" was originslly 88min, later 83min.
The problem is that the real commuter growth since 1959 has been from the Medway Towns and the Longfield/Meopham area, not the Kent Coast.
Yes indeed 30907, there was also a CX - Gillingham - Ramsgate and a Sheerness - Dover P serving the intermediates...plus Sheerness to Vic all day.
 

chris7153

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From Medway towns area the "classic" services were deliberately cut back and made slower with additional station stops to make the HS1 service seem more attractive as it costs a premium. Even now the HS1 is not that much quicker on this route, depending where in London you want to get to. It follows the tradional North Kent line with stops and is only fast from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras.

Gillingham to St Pancras takes 45 minutes. Where as the semi fast (as it is these days) Gillingham to Victoria takes just over 50 minutes.
 

Dr Hoo

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From Medway towns area the "classic" services were deliberately cut back and made slower with additional station stops to make the HS1 service seem more attractive as it costs a premium. Even now the HS1 is not that much quicker on this route, depending where in London you want to get to. It follows the tradional North Kent line with stops and is only fast from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras.

Gillingham to St Pancras takes 45 minutes. Where as the semi fast (as it is these days) Gillingham to Victoria takes just over 50 minutes.
No.
The HS1 services obviously removed some of the Kent Coast passengers from the classic trains to Victoria. The capacity released could relieve overcrowding on the stopping services closer to London and provide some opportunities for slightly faster journeys from places like Meopham.
 

30907

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No.
The HS1 services obviously removed some of the Kent Coast passengers from the classic trains to Victoria. The capacity released could relieve overcrowding on the stopping services closer to London and provide some opportunities for slightly faster journeys from places like Meopham.
The offpeak service on the Chatham main line was cut from 4 to 3 tph, and similarly via Ashford (though of course Ashford and beyond have benefitted more from HS2 - or even HS1).
 
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yorksrob

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The offpeak service on the Chatham main line was cut from 4 to 3 tph, and similarly via Ashford (though of course Ashford and beyond have benefitted more from HS2).

I was under the impression that the off-peak service to Ashford via Tonbridge, is down to two stoppers and hour, whilst the service via Maidstone East is two an hour (one of which is fast to Bearstead then a stopper, with the other a stopper to Maidstone than semi-fast).
 

30907

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I was under the impression that the off-peak service to Ashford via Tonbridge, is down to two stoppers and hour, whilst the service via Maidstone East is two an hour (one of which is fast to Bearstead then a stopper, with the other a stopper to Maidstone than semi-fast).
Yes. I couldn't offhand remember the last pre HS1 details so wasn't specific. The loss was the fastest service (latterly via Maidstone).
 

nw1

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As well as the above observations, the fastness of the faster Victoria-Canterbury East-Dover service (I bring that up because I've used it a couple of times in recent years) isn't helped by the fact that it did, in 2016 (I presume still does) stop at all the small local stations between Medway and Faversham. Fair enough to stop at Longfield and Meopham to give extra services there - but the timetable is such that the slow service (the one which uses the Denmark Hill route within London, and is run by 465/9s at least some of the time) skips those small local stations east of Medway. Would it not be better for the 'faster' Dover via Canterbury East service to skip the smaller stations and the slow service to pick up the calls?
 

Helvellyn

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The offpeak service on the Chatham main line was cut from 4 to 3 tph, and similarly via Ashford (though of course Ashford and beyond have benefitted more from HS2).
Ah, you've cracked why HS2 is so over budget - the deviation via Ashford. ;)
 

frodshamfella

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I used to remember while waiting for my Bexleyheath line train at Charing Cross a coastal service which was fast Waterloo East to Ashford, which I always thought was pretty good, think it got there in about an hour, then half went to Sandwich via Dover and the other half via Canterbury East to Ramsgate, i think ?! This would have been in the 80s, so long time ago. Anyway something like that.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I used to remember while waiting for my Bexleyheath line train at Charing Cross a coastal service which was fast Waterloo East to Ashford, which I always thought was pretty good, think it got there in about an hour, then half went to Sandwich via Dover and the other half via Canterbury East to Ramsgate, i think ?! This would have been in the 80s, so long time ago. Anyway something like that.

The 17:55 from Charing Cross did that according to my 1988 inter-Rail timetable, getting in at 19:08. Although apparently lots of Saturday services ran fast to Ashford too.
 

GrimShady

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Dover to Victoria via the Kent coast used to take well over 2 hours as I recall.
 

nw1

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The 17:55 from Charing Cross did that according to my 1988 inter-Rail timetable, getting in at 19:08. Although apparently lots of Saturday services ran fast to Ashford too.

It was the normal off-peak pattern certainly for a time in the 80s: the 1986 and 1987 timetables both featured a regular hourly non-stop (xx55 out of Charing Cross) Waterloo East to Ashford service which then went further (forget where). This ran via Tonbridge, certainly in the 87/88 timetable anyhow. In addition there was an xx00 Ashford 'stopper' and an xx30 semi-fast, think the xx30 divided at Ashford and was the only one which served Canterbury West.

Remember seeing a lot of what were presumably boat trains on that line in summer 1987 also: practically every hour a 12CEP would come through Tonbridge which didn't match anything on the published timetable.
 

Sad Sprinter

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To revist this thread, what was the "usual" way to get to Dover/Thanet from London until December 2009? From Victoria or Charing Cross? Or did it depend on what part of London/Great Britain you were coming from?
 
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