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ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers

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EM2

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In what regard?
Well, if ten people apply for ten positions, and get through the process, they all get a job, even if some only reach the minimum standard.
If thirty people apply for ten positions, then the best ten people get the jobs, and logically must have done better than the other twenty.
Ergo, you have better staff.
 
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GrimShady

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Well, if ten people apply for ten positions, and get through the process, they all get a job, even if some only reach the minimum standard.
If thirty people apply for ten positions, then the best ten people get the jobs, and logically must have done better than the other twenty.
Ergo, you have better staff.

Yeah I get the principal EM2. I'm asking what defines "better"? The recruitment process should outline exactly what's needed for the job. If the candidate meets this criteria then they get hired.

If there's 10 jobs and 20 applicants that all pass the required criteria then what's the next deciding factor. What makes one candidate "better" than the other?
 

EM2

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Yeah I get the principal EM2. I'm asking what defines "better"? The recruitment process should outline exactly what's needed for the job. If the candidate meets this criteria then they get hired.

If there's 10 jobs and 20 applicants that all pass the required criteria then what's the next deciding factor. What makes one candidate "better" than the other?
There are a number of tests to be passed aren't there? If ten people get higher scores in the tests than twenty others, they have done better. I can't believe I'm having to explain this :rolleyes:
 

GrimShady

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There are a number of tests to be passed aren't there? If ten people get higher scores in the tests than twenty others, they have done better. I can't believe I'm having to explain this :rolleyes:

I have absolutely no idea how the railway scores it applicants, only how we do it. Also just because someone has managed to dazzle HR with their lingo doesn't actually make them better at the job at all.

All im hearing is buzzwords with no basis. You're going have to explain it as your argument revolves around "better suited" "best people" or "higher quality".
 

tiptoptaff

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I have absolutely no idea how the railway scores it applicants, only how we do it. Also just because someone has managed to dazzle HR with their lingo doesn't actually make them better at the job at all.

All im hearing is buzzwords with no basis. You're going have to explain it as your argument revolves around "better suited" "best people" or "higher quality".
The test are a quantifiable entity. Most driver interviews are with Driver Managers, not HR
 

irish_rail

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But this isn't what is happening - they're not lowering standards here to get more people of a certain group through the door, they're just trying to get more people from those groups to apply than already do. And you will see an increase in those groups getting jobs, not because standards are lower, but because they're up to the standard, but have never thought to apply before.
Except they have lowered the standards. Certain tests including for example mechanical comprehension where done away with due to the high number of women failing it. How relevant this test is in today's railway is open to debate however it is a definite sign of the entry level tests being dumbed down in order to allow more women to pass
 

irish_rail

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Because you might not (in fact, probably aren't) get the very best people possible.
Look at what happens when English football clubs get players from across the world, rather than they restricted themselves to the UK and Ireland.
The League became popular, world-class players want to play here, and the clubs improve.
I think that is very unfair to the current workforce. Personally my record absolutely speaks for itself, as a train driver ,I am a TOCs dream ,performance and attendance wise. What more do they want?? Maybe I'm not pretty enough??
 

O L Leigh

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All im hearing is buzzwords with no basis. You're going have to explain it as your argument revolves around "better suited" "best people" or "higher quality".

Are you failing to understand the words themselves or the application of them? I would have thought that their meaning in this context is self-evident, otherwise perhaps you'd better steer away from this strand of the discussion. Any reference to the selection process inevitably leads to the use of one or other of these phrases, otherwise how else do you describe how one person is offered the job over another? Perhaps you'd like to offer suggestions for easier-to-understand phrases.

You're not wrong to say that there are issues with the recruitment process and that sometimes a "rogue" does slip through. I've seen it happen. However, that objection has nothing to do with the gender of applicants and can happen to any person from any background. But it's not the recruitment and selection process that's really under scrutiny here.

To pick up some earlier points, I disagree that any efforts to recruit more women/BAME staff would be divisive, as the tales of how well people integrate into the job attests. If there is any divisiveness it is simply down to the inherent bigotry and chauvinism in the grade. Any suggestions that "she only got the job because she's a woman" should be immediately countered with "she only got the job because she passed the selection process, completed the training and was passed competent, the same as you and I".

Also, no there is no objective reason why the industry should be looking to do this. But then there is no objective reason not to do it either, so why not? It seems eminently sensible to me to try to gain the widest possible reach.
 

O L Leigh

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Except they have lowered the standards. Certain tests including for example mechanical comprehension where done away with due to the high number of women failing it. How relevant this test is in today's railway is open to debate however it is a definite sign of the entry level tests being dumbed down in order to allow more women to pass

I would say that it's relevance has been eroded over the years to such an extent that it's useless knowledge. Pretty much all a driver needs to know is how to flick a switch or turn a knob. There's almost no mechanical comprehension required, and any specialist knowledge will be taught as part of the training programme anyway.

I would also challenge your assertion that the mechanical comprehension test was removed due to the numbers of women failing it. I don't see how you could possibly know what the reason was for it's deletion.

I think that is very unfair to the current workforce. Personally my record absolutely speaks for itself, as a train driver ,I am a TOCs dream ,performance and attendance wise. What more do they want?? Maybe I'm not pretty enough??

That's just daft!! You've got your job, so what difference does it make to you?
 
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Clip

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That's just daft!! You've got your job, so what difference does it make to you?

It seems like both irish rail and others are scared of the threat a few more women in the workplace is to them if i am reading this right. Must be feeling inadequate or something
 

Mintona

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Except they have lowered the standards. Certain tests including for example mechanical comprehension where done away with due to the high number of women failing it. How relevant this test is in today's railway is open to debate however it is a definite sign of the entry level tests being dumbed down in order to allow more women to pass

I’ve never done the mechanical comprehension test either. It wasn’t included when I did the assessments in 2011. I don’t think it makes me any less of a driver. And I certainly don’t think it was removed due to the ‘high number of women failing it’. I imagine it was more to do with the fact that it has almost absolutely nothing to do with train driving in the 21st century.
 

GrimShady

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It is the application of them with regards to train driving I have the issue with. Having been involved with interviews, the terminology we generally use is strengths and weakness. Better suited etc means absolutely zero in my book, how can you make that determination untill after a years probation? Only from then on you can then compare suitability of employees.

I would say it is the recruitment process that's in question here. I understand it's desirable to cast a bigger net, fine but you do equally for everyone. Targeting one specific demographic is creating division by the very nature of it. As I've said before I absolutely no interest what the employees background is as long as they can do the job.

If there's no objective reason as you say then shouldn't the union be concentrating on current members issues and not possible future members?
 
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O L Leigh

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It is the application of them with regards to train driving I have the issue with. Having been involved with interviews, the terminology we generally use is strengths and weakness. Better suited etc means absolutely zero in my book, how can you make that determination until after a years probation? Only from then on you can then compare suitability of employees.

To my mind, that is a point of pedantry. Having discovered an applicant's strengths and weaknesses, how do you decide whether or not they should be offered a position? Surely you need to match those strengths and weaknesses against the requirements of the job, at which point you will discover whose strengths and weaknesses match best and, therefore, which candidate is the most suitable.

I would say it is the recruitment process that's in question here. I understand it's desirable to cast a bigger net, fine but you do equally for everyone. Targeting one specific demographic is creating division. As I've said before I absolutely no interest what the employees background is as long as they can do the job.

And you don't believe that's what is happening? You feel that some people are having different standards applied to them because of who or what they are? Likewise, where does it say that one specific demographic is being targeted? If you have no interest in a potential driver's background, why does it bother you so much that they may have applied in response to an application posted in Woman's Weekly as opposed to Rail News?

If there's no objective reason as you say then shouldn't the union be concentrating on current members issues and not possible future members?

Personally I don't have a problem with this. I think that it is entirely appropriate that ASLEF is looking towards the future of the grade and ensuring it has an ongoing role in helping to shape it. They do an adequate job of representing the current membership.
 
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AlterEgo

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Again why does it matter who applies as long as standards are maintained?

Because a more diverse workforce, with a broader experience base and different mindsets and ways of approaching problems, is an asset in just about any industry. Including the railway.
 

GrimShady

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And you don't believe that's what is happening? You feel that some people are having different standards applied to them because of who or what they are? Likewise, where does it say that one specific demographic is being targeted? If you have no interest in a potential driver's background, why does it bother you so much that they may have applied in response to an application posted in Woman's Weekly as opposed to Rail News?



Personally I don't have a problem with this. I think that it is entirely appropriate that ASLEF is looking towards the future of the grade and ensuring it has an ongoing role in helping to shape it. They do an adequate job of representing the current membership.

"A campaign to increase the number of female, BAME and younger train drivers"

"Aslef’s general secretary, Mick Whelan, said he wanted to see “fewer people who look like me”"- This is the exact language used.

I haven't said at all there are different standards being applied, I believe Irish_Rail did.

Place as many adverts as they see fit in Woman's Weekly as long as the advertisement is non gender/race specific.
 

AlterEgo

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Place as many adverts as they see fit in Woman's Weekly as long as the advertisement is non gender/race specific.

Any advert which goes into Woman’s Weekly is going to be geared towards women simply by the fact it’s in Woman’s Weekly...
 

GrimShady

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To my mind, that is a point of pedantry. Having discovered an applicant's strengths and weaknesses, how do you decide whether or not they should be offered a position? Surely you need to match those strengths and weaknesses against the requirements of the job, at which point you will discover whose strengths and weaknesses match best and, therefore, which candidate is the most suitable.

The issue i have is terminology "Better Suited", "Higher Quality" is being used against the current workforce standard otherwise what's the baseline? If the current employees do their job safely, turn up on time and cause no agro then what else can you ask for? It's actually rather disrespectful to use such terms in my view as your essentially telling the workforce they are not good enough.
 

O L Leigh

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"A campaign to increase the number of female, BAME and younger train drivers"

"Aslef’s general secretary, Mick Whelan, said he wanted to see “fewer people who look like me”"- This is the exact language used.

Thank you for posting this again. I am already aware of the content of the statement and not at all surprised by this. Diversity is a concern for ASLEF because it feels that the lack of it amongst the grade suggests that discrimination is going on, whether deliberately or not, and would like to address what it sees as a problem. But ultimately it isn't down to ASLEF to dictate recruitment and selection policy, that is the business of the TOCs/FOCs.

I haven't said at all there are different standards being applied, I believe Irish_Rail did.

Perhaps so, but I can't understand your objection given that you've repeatedly said that you don't care about the background of applicants. An equality of opportunity is surely something that you either support or it doesn't bother you at all.

Place as many adverts as they see fit in Woman's Weekly as long as the advertisement is non gender/race specific.

And I'm sure that's precisely the sort of thing that ASLEF would like to see happening.
 

O L Leigh

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The issue i have is terminology "Better Suited", "Higher Quality" is being used against the current workforce standard otherwise what's the baseline? If the current employees do their job safely, turn up on time and cause no agro then what else can you ask for? It's actually rather disrespectful to use such terms in my view as your essentially telling the workforce they are not good enough.

Then I fear you may have misunderstood. The phrases are being used against the current recruitment and selection standards, something that the current workforce will have all cleared at the time of their recruitment. What we're talking about here is recruiting people to join the existing workforce, not supplant it.
 

theironroad

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Shift premium payments were abolished in many tocs and supplements were rolled into the headline pay which everyone in the grade gets regardless of shift pattern.

Wider scale use of family friendly shifts will probably have to see the reintroduction of a similar scheme.

Why anyone would think it is equal and fair to have one driver permanently accommodated to work day shifts or those with a later start time, while their colleagues have to pick up the 0400 starts etc is beyond me.

A roster is constructed so that everyone gets an equal share of the good and bad and any long term changes to that should be by mutual agreement between drivers.

People permanently accommodated to certain hours beciasue they don't want to get up at 0300 or because the cat would be lonely are probably the biggest source of contention when it comes to workplace issues, it is divisive to say the least.

Shift work has been shown to have a detrimental effect to long term health both physically and mentally and the form used in some railway grades, such as driving, with variable shift work and variable start and end times is particularly detrimental to proper operation of the body clock .

Certainly, the driving grade could , and should, be more representative of society at large but it must b done in a way that doesn't discriminate against other people.
 

GrimShady

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Thank you for posting this again. I am already aware of the content of the statement and not at all surprised by this. Diversity is a concern for ASLEF because it feels that the lack of it amongst the grade suggests that discrimination is going on, whether deliberately or not, and would like to address what it sees as a problem. But ultimately it isn't down to ASLEF to dictate recruitment and selection policy, that is the business of the TOCs/FOCs.



Perhaps so, but I can't understand your objection given that you've repeatedly said that you don't care about the background of applicants. An equality of opportunity is surely something that either something you support or it doesn't bother you at all.



And I'm sure that's precisely the sort of thing that ASLEF would like to see happening.

So it's a perceived injustice? In essence an imaginary problem and they just want to appear to be doing the right thing, just as I thought, political nonsense.

The objection is that they're targeting specific demographics. In order to hire more of x you have to be willing to reject a number of y, try as you may to be open but this is going to result in scoring extra points for specific backgrounds. I have witnessed this with shipping companies. It's a very, very fine line.
 

O L Leigh

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Why anyone would think it is equal and fair to have one driver permanently accommodated to work day shifts or those with a later start time, while their colleagues have to pick up the 0400 starts etc is beyond me.

There is no reason to believe that women being recruited into the driving grade need to be accommodated any more than their male colleagues. Not all will have childcare responsibilities and not all applications for accommodation due to childcare come from women.

Certainly, the driving grade could , and should, be more representative of society at large but it must b done in a way that doesn't discriminate against other people.

Again, what we're talking about here is equality of opportunity.
 

O L Leigh

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So it's a perceived injustice? In essence an imaginary problem and they just want to appear to be doing the right thing, just as I thought, political nonsense.

The objection is that they're targeting specific demographics. In order to hire more of x you have to be willing to reject a number of y, try as you may to be open but this is going to result in scoring extra points for specific backgrounds. I have witnessed this with shipping companies. It's a very, very fine line.

Is it perceived...? Looking around the messroom it seems quite real to me.

Again, I don't see your objection to an equality of opportunity for people from all demographics. There's no question of hiring more x at the expense of y, but rather increasing the number of applications from x in relation to y and then considering both x and y fairly. The increase in x should then follow naturally as a consequence of greater number of applicants, as has already been enumerated repeatedly.
 

GrimShady

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Is it perceived...? Looking around the messroom it seems quite real to me.

Again, I don't see your objection to an equality of opportunity for people from all demographics. There's no question of hiring more x at the expense of y, but rather increasing the number of applications from x in relation to y and then considering both x and y fairly. The increase in x should then follow naturally as a consequence of greater number of applicants, as has already been enumerated repeatedly.

Mick Whelan stated “fewer people who look like me”. After 35 years in the industry he said he was well aware how many train drivers were middle-aged, male, and white." Doesn't sound to me like all demographics, it sounds very specific.
 

O L Leigh

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Mick Whelan stated “fewer people who look like me”. After 35 years in the industry he said he was well aware how many train drivers were middle-aged, male, and white." Doesn't sound to me like all demographics, it sounds very specific.

So...?

I never claimed that the numbers of white, middle-aged male drivers wouldn't go down. What I said was that pursuing a policy of equal opportunity hand-in-hand with the existing recruitment and selection process would not represent a discriminatory system. More applicants from all demographics inevitably results in a more diverse workforce.

As a demographic, white middle-aged guys like me are grossly over-represented, and that is what Mick Whelan is drawing attention to.
 
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Carlisle

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The issue i have is terminology "Better Suited", "Higher Quality" is being used against the current workforce standard otherwise what's the baseline? If the current employees do their job safely, turn up on time and cause no agro then what else can you ask for? It's actually rather disrespectful to use such terms in my view as your essentially telling the workforce they are not good enough.
Very well said, the superior salaries of privatisation have unfortunately been a major contributor towards a lackadaisical culture amongst some management of adopting whatever suitability fad is in fashion with them at a particular time, safe in the knowledge they’ll receive loads of over qualified (on paper) applicants purely because of the wage levels & benefits alone
 
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GrimShady

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So...?

I never claimed that the numbers of white, middle-aged male drivers wouldn't go down. What I said was that pursuing a policy of equal opportunity hand-in-hand with the existing recruitment and selection process would not represent a discriminatory system. More applicants from all demographics inevitably results in a more diverse workforce.

As a demographic, white middle-aged guys like me are grossly over-represented, and that is what Mick Whelan is drawing attention to.

All for it, but what happens when it turns out the is no change in representation and that the job happens to appeal to the white middle aged men? Then what?

Again I don't think anyone cares who is driving the trains be it white men, women, BAME (i really hate this terminology) or any other group. It's just not important at all who is represented as long as the job goes on.
 

tony_mac

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As a demographic, white middle-aged guys like me are grossly over-represented, and that is what Mick Whelan is drawing attention to.
And, if you don't try to do something about it, it will stay that way indefinitely. People tend to recruit others who are like them; often unconsciously, but sometimes quite deliberately. It's obvious that at least some people would prefer that.
 

GrimShady

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And, if you don't try to do something about it, it will stay that way indefinitely. People tend to recruit others who are like them; often unconsciously, but sometimes quite deliberately. It's obvious that at least some people would prefer that.

You do have a point here. People do tend to recruit others who are like them. So how do you regulate it? How do you ensure equality? I know how its been done in other industries which is plain wrong.
 
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