Caledonian Sleeper

Mathew S · 23 Jun 2019

BRX said:
Some facts. For euston to glasgow. Where it's delayed, its fairly consistently less than about half an hour.

https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=London+Euston+(EUS)&To=Glasgow+Central+(GLC)&TimTyp=D&TimDay=8p&Days=Wk&TimPer=10w&dtFr=14/04/2019&dtTo=23/06/2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=50&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt=

The problem is it's not just about time. It's also about being confident that you'll get a comfortable night of decent quality sleep. If I've got a day of meetings in Glasgow, I can't afford to be exhausted all day because of problems with lights, air conditioning, temperature, water systems, lack of food, etc.
The sleeper is more expensive than a day train plus hotel (and the last time I looked, the sleeper was £100+ more expensive), so to be justifiable it needs to offer me everything a hotel would, and something extra on top. At the moment, it doesn't do that.
I'd consider using the Fort William portion just for the experience, but for a journey to Glasgow / Edinburgh the sleeper, for me, just doesn't have a purpose at these prices.

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TimboM · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The TOC is called West Midlands Trains, like GTR they have separate brands. CS should probably have been clearer about it, though.

CS Twitter could've called them Timbuctoo Trains and I'm pretty sure the detrained passengers (and the CS crew with them) would've found the train they were supposed to get on. Acton Bridge isn't Clapham Junction, put it that way!

TimboM · 23 Jun 2019

MylesHSG said:
The broken lowlander arrived back at Wembley just after 17:00. Was it the full set? Maybe they can get it fixed for Sunday evenings service. We'll see.

Full set bar coach 15333 at Craigentinny for tyre-turning.
It ran from Crewe to Wembley at normal service speed, don't see any reason why it won't be out on 1S26 tonight. I don't believe there is anything mechanically wrong with the stock (as was the case the other week when the wheels were a tad flattened).

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

trebor79 said:
Wot he says. I was very happy when I travelled from Glasgow to Euston a few weeks ago. Other than a minor issue with unwanted lighting for a few seconds and a cool shower there was little to find fault with.

If I stayed in the JW Marriott or the Renaissance and had either of those issues, I would be quite unhappy. A premium hotel experience at a premium price is meant to be near-perfect. If I wanted that kind of experience, I can save a lot of money and stay in the Premier Inn.

I think this is the main point - CS are marketing to this level - they need to deliver it. If they marketed at the more budget end as ScotRail did during their tenure (or GWR do) people wouldn't mind so much.

Talking of which, Premier Inn (a budget hotel operator, albeit not quite as budget as Travelodge) offers no-quibble refunds if you "didn't have a great night's sleep" - and I've claimed this over something minor like noisy aircon, because it genuinely did affect my sleep. CS, your call?

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

woodhouse122 said:
TBH i wouldnt risk buying a ticket for a Lowlander service with all these faults and cancelations,i rode on the seated carriage up to Glasgow last sunday evening but i doubt i'll be using it again,still lots of problems with the lights coming on and off for the first hour and too much air con meant the carriage was freezing and even the ultra thin blanket handed out couldnt take the chill off (dread to think what it could be like in the winter months) i think i made the right decision by getting the megabus back which was a nore comfatable journey

If I could guarantee a double seat I'd choose a coach over CS seated at the moment (I'm slightly surprised NatEx don't actually sell that even at double fare - you can buy two seats, but like the railway unoccupied seats are fair game). The wider seat is a big selling point to me.

Essexman · 23 Jun 2019

TimboM said:
Full set bar coach 15333 at Craigentinny for tyre-turning.
It ran from Crewe to Wembley at normal service speed, don't see any reason why it won't be out on 1S26 tonight. I don't believe there is anything mechanically wrong with the stock (as was the case the other week when the wheels were a tad flattened).

Excellent.
Nothing on CS website or twitter so I assume it must be running as normal.

DelW · 23 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
Apparently there's an air leak on the second coach which they've not been able to isolate, a fitter has been requested who should be there soon if not already.

Maxfly said:
Fitter now on site, hopefully that should get it moving fairly quickly.

Referring back to Friday's problem with the down Fort Bill, does anyone know how the fitter(s) reached the train somewhere "south of Tulloch". That covers a big area a long way from the nearest road (and the scene of the notorious Loch Trieg derailment a few years ago).
I assume maybe fitters have access to some form of road / rail van or pickup truck, similar to American hi-rail trucks? If so, would that have to be signalled as if it were a train, or would it have some sort of "one engine in steam" permission, bearing in mind that the stalled sleeper was blocking the line.
Presumably CS will not only have to fund 100% refunds for their passengers, but also ScotRail's bill for delays and cancellations on Friday. That's an expensive air hose!

Highlandspring · 23 Jun 2019

DelW said:
Referring back to Friday's problem with the down Fort Bill, does anyone know how the fitter(s) reached the train somewhere "south of Tulloch". That covers a big area a long way from the nearest road (and the scene of the notorious Loch Trieg derailment a few years ago).
I assume maybe fitters have access to some form of road / rail van or pickup truck, similar to American hi-rail trucks? If so, would that have to be signalled as if it were a train, or would it have some sort of "one engine in steam" permission, bearing in mind that the stalled sleeper was blocking the line.

The Fort William fitter travelled by van then walked to the train which was not far from the station. Network Rail has appropriate road rail vehicles and there are procedures in place to use one to convey staff to a train on the West Highland and Far North Lines if required but it’s very, very rarely an issue.

option · 23 Jun 2019

BRX said:
Some facts. For euston to glasgow. Where it's delayed, its fairly consistently less than about half an hour.

https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=London+Euston+(EUS)&To=Glasgow+Central+(GLC)&TimTyp=D&TimDay=8p&Days=Wk&TimPer=10w&dtFr=14/04/2019&dtTo=23/06/2019&ShwTim=AvAr&MxArCl=50&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=&MnScCt=

One issue, reported on here & twitter, is that the departures from Euston are so late as to be disruptive, & there is nowhere to wait at Euston

eg; https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=63512853
Fri 07 Jun 2019: 23:50 London Euston to Edinburgh
87Late departure

For the last 14 days on that service;
3 cancelled
1 1.5hr late departure

Thats 28% of the services!

Essexman · 23 Jun 2019

Putting back the boarding time at Euston to 22.30 will help with standing around.
Once passengers are on the train late departure is not an issue, only late arrival.

nlogax · 23 Jun 2019

Within a short space of time I hope to be a fairly regular user of CS to Glasgow or a few stations north on the Highlander. I wouldn't book again right now, giving it a couple of months seems like a worthwhile wait while the operation (inevitably) settles down.

_toommm_ · 23 Jun 2019

Essexman said:
Putting back the boarding time at Euston to 22.30 will help with standing around.
Once passengers are on the train late departure is not an issue, only late arrival.

Already been done - see my quote from a few pages ago:

_toommm_ said:
Unsure if this has been posted yet, but this is a quote from the Cally Sleeper website:

I'm guessing this is due to the consistent late arrival of the Lowlander stock. Link below:

https://www.sleeper.scot/service-alterations/

al78 · 23 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
The problem is it's not just about time. It's also about being confident that you'll get a comfortable night of decent quality sleep. If I've got a day of meetings in Glasgow, I can't afford to be exhausted all day because of problems with lights, air conditioning, temperature, water systems, lack of food, etc.
The sleeper is more expensive than a day train plus hotel (and the last time I looked, the sleeper was £100+ more expensive), so to be justifiable it needs to offer me everything a hotel would, and something extra on top. At the moment, it doesn't do that.
I'd consider using the Fort William portion just for the experience, but for a journey to Glasgow / Edinburgh the sleeper, for me, just doesn't have a purpose at these prices.

As far as I can see, the sleeper is never going to offer the comfort of a hotel, even a budget one, because it can't. A hotel doesn't move about and doesn't jolt in the early hours of the morning to join onto two more hotels, a hotel bed is far more spacious, the catering is much better, the room is much more spacious, and the corridors are wide enough for me to walk along with a full backpack on without the tent getting wedged between the walls. The sleeper is limited in what it can offer because it is a train, with very limited space, there is only a finite amount of stuff you can fit on it, a hotel by comparison has a much larger footprint, much more room for the luxuries as well as the essentials.

I used the sleeper to get home from Inverness last Friday evening. It worked from a functional perspectiver, it meant I slept during the longest leg of the journey, whereas a daytime train could get boring once past the beautiful scenery. I would hardly call it a premier experience, as far as I was concerned it is a way of avoiding flying (for environmental reasons), and is cheaper than a daytime train. From a purely logical and selfish perspective, the optimal way to get home would have been an afternoon flight on Friday, then I would have got to Horsham in time for an evening bridge session.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

al78 said:
As far as I can see, the sleeper is never going to offer the comfort of a hotel, even a budget one, because it can't. A hotel doesn't move about and doesn't jolt in the early hours of the morning to join onto two more hotels, a hotel bed is far more spacious, the catering is much better, the room is much more spacious, and the corridors are wide enough for me to walk along with a full backpack on without the tent getting wedged between the walls. The sleeper is limited in what it can offer because it is a train, with very limited space, there is only a finite amount of stuff you can fit on it, a hotel by comparison has a much larger footprint, much more room for the luxuries as well as the essentials.

But if they're going after that market, it has to offer equivalent service from start to finish. That is where they are really failing.

Butts · 23 Jun 2019

al78 said:
As far as I can see, the sleeper is never going to offer the comfort of a hotel, even a budget one, because it can't. A hotel doesn't move about and doesn't jolt in the early hours of the morning to join onto two more hotels, a hotel bed is far more spacious, the catering is much better, the room is much more spacious, and the corridors are wide enough for me to walk along with a full backpack on without the tent getting wedged between the walls. The sleeper is limited in what it can offer because it is a train, with very limited space, there is only a finite amount of stuff you can fit on it, a hotel by comparison has a much larger footprint, much more room for the luxuries as well as the essentials.

I used the sleeper to get home from Inverness last Friday evening. It worked from a functional perspectiver, it meant I slept during the longest leg of the journey, whereas a daytime train could get boring once past the beautiful scenery. I would hardly call it a premier experience, as far as I was concerned it is a way of avoiding flying (for environmental reasons), and is cheaper than a daytime train. From a purely logical and selfish perspective, the optimal way to get home would have been an afternoon flight on Friday, then I would have got to Horsham in time for an evening bridge session.

Next time..let the "plane take the strain" and enjoy a few rubbers in the Evening.

You are not going to save the planet opting out of one flight from Inverness to Gatwick or wherever.

If you still feel guilty donate a portion of the wedge you save on a far quicker journey to some good cause to assuage your reckless behaviour

option · 23 Jun 2019

Essexman said:
Putting back the boarding time at Euston to 22.30 will help with standing around.
Once passengers are on the train late departure is not an issue, only late arrival.

As _toommm_ has said, boarding is already at 22:30
This service (4 days after the change) had a scheduled departure of 23:50, yet it didn't depart until 01:17. Boarded about an hour late I believe.
https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=63512853

BUT the timetable is so padded it was only 9minutes late at Edinburgh.

Stock was an hour late in the day before.

So, if you were on that service, you get no Delay Repay.
Yet you've lost an hour of service (& probably the opportunity for a late meal/snack, relaxing drink)
Been stuck at Euston for an hour
What is that actually worth?

side effect · 23 Jun 2019

Euston to Glasgow Cancelled. Road transport provided.

mde · 23 Jun 2019

side effect said:
Euston to Glasgow Cancelled. Road transport provided.

Indeed, I was just coming to post the same.

From the CS "service alterations" page:

Sunday 23rd June 2019 – Service update: London Euston to Glasgow Central

We very much regret to advise that this service has been cancelled.

Alternate Road Transport has been provided with a departure time of 23:30 from Eversholt Street just outside the station. Boarding will be available from 22:30.

Ticket acceptance has also been confirmed with Virgin Trains on Morning morning services from London Euston to Glasgow Central.

All other services are unaffected.

We recognise and sincerely apologise for the late notification and the inconvenience that this will cause.

All affected guests will receive a full refund. If you have booked directly with us you will automatically receive a refund and our Guest Ambassadors are already working on this process. If you haven’t booked directly with us but were directly affected by the recent cancellations, you are still entitled to a full refund and this can be processed via our website www.sleeper.scot/delay-repay-form/

Essexman · 23 Jun 2019

Simply not acceptable to give no warning the service was in doubt, disappear of Twitter, then cancel at 7pm.

jagardner1984 · 23 Jun 2019

Goodness me they don’t help themselves do they !

Quick question, for a journey in August I’m looking to book a classic room. Is the deal the same as it used to be re using the showers at Euston ? i.e. a shower token for £5 ?

Various of the google search results on the topic come up with a 404 error on the Sleeper site.

Mathew S · 23 Jun 2019

Essexman said:
Simply not acceptable to give no warning the service was in doubt, disappear of Twitter, then cancel at 7pm.

Unless, of course, they didn't know it would have to be cancelled until 7pm due to a late-presenting issue that couldn't possibly be fixed in time to run the service; something as simple as last minute staff sickness, for example. Whilst I realise it's frustrating for those affected, in an organisation as small as CS there can't be a lot of resilience, and last minute cancellations are going to happen. They've apologised, and offered both alternative transport and a full refund. I'm not really sure what else you think they could have done?

JModulo · 23 Jun 2019

jagardner1984 said:
Is the deal the same as it used to be re using the showers at Euston ? i.e. a shower token for £5 ?

Yes it is.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
Unless, of course, they didn't know it would have to be cancelled until 7pm due to a late-presenting issue that couldn't possibly be fixed in time to run the service; something as simple as last minute staff sickness, for example. Whilst I realise it's frustrating for those affected, in an organisation as small as CS there can't be a lot of resilience, and last minute cancellations are going to happen. They've apologised, and offered both alternative transport and a full refund. I'm not really sure what else you think they could have done?

The bare minimum would be a hotel and alternative day transport. Again, they are not living up to the quality moniker they are giving themselves. Even Ryanair would (be legally obliged to) provide hotel accommodation.

Kite159 · 23 Jun 2019

Ticket acceptance has also been confirmed with Virgin Trains on Morning morning services from London Euston to Glasgow Central.

Useful for anybody who lives in the London area where they can go home for the night, not much use if you need to find a hotel at late notice and end up on the magic bus

Essexman · 23 Jun 2019

They could have responded to customer questions today. First activity on Twitter was 7pm to say train cancelled.

They could tell us why it’s cancelled.

They could have said whether it was at risk of cancellation.

Mathew S · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The bare minimum would be a hotel and alternative day transport. Again, they are not living up to the quality moniker they are giving themselves. Even Ryanair would (be legally obliged to) provide hotel accommodation.

I agree that should be the bare minimum, but it isn't is it. They're doing all that the NRCOT obliges them to do. More, in fact, by giving everyone a full refund.
Maybe the rules need changing so that, for sleeper services, the option of a hotel room and transport the next morning (or vice versa and hotel at destination) is required, but the rules are what they are.
As I've said before, I'd love to see someone take them to court under the Consumer Rights Act and see what the court ruled was appropriate in all the circumstances. Short of that, though, I can't see anything changing.

side effect · 23 Jun 2019

When we next travel we will take no luggage. I don't mind the coach due to zopiclone etc but having to carry luggage would do it for me. Have CS ever provided hotels. It's sad to see my favourite toc fail like this.

Mathew S · 23 Jun 2019

Essexman said:
They could have responded to customer questions today. First activity on Twitter was 7pm to say train cancelled.

They could tell us why it’s cancelled.

They could have said whether it was at risk of cancellation.

How are they supposed to know that a service is "at risk of cancellation"? That's just ludicrous. You either cancel it and tell customers, or you think it's going to run. That's just basic comm's. I agree, though, the lack of a reason given is poor.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
I agree that should be the bare minimum, but it isn't is it. They're doing all that the NRCOT obliges them to do. More, in fact, be giving everyone a full refund.
Maybe the rules need changing so that, for sleeper services, the option of a hotel room and transport the next morning (or vice versa and hotel at destination) is required, but the rules are what they are.

Who gives a stuff what the rules are? They are a minimum.

They are selling an allegedly premium product on which they are treating passengers worse than they would be treated were this a late evening cancellation of a budget airline flight.

OK, the airlines are required to do more by law, but if you offer a premium product you need to do more than a budget airline, don't you? Or you make it a budget product, but then you have to drop your prices and pack in the upselling - sell it more like ScotRail did, or like GWR now do.

It is downright shoddy and they are an utter disgrace.

Essexman · 23 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
How are they supposed to know that a service is "at risk of cancellation"? That's just ludicrous. You either cancel it and tell customers, or you think it's going to run. That's just basic comm's. I agree, though, the lack of a reason given is poor.

We knew it had broken down on Friday but had to guess as to whether it would be mended for tonight. They could have said it will be ok, it won’t be ok, or we hope it will be ok.

My situation is I’m travelling Tuesday and needed to cancel Flexipass booking by midday today if I was to make other arrangements. If there was a doubt about Tuesday, which there may be now, then I’d have cancelled.

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