CrossCountry's catering provider (First Service) goes into liquidation

NoOnesFool · 22 Jun 2019

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I was sorry to read that FisCo, who provide catering on CrossCountry Turbostar services has gone in to liquidization. https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3262793

Condolences to all whose jobs are at risk.

At a general meeting of the above named Company, duly convened and held on 18 April 2019 at4.30 pm, the following resolutions were passed as a special and ordinary resolution respectively:

"That it has been proved to the satisfaction of this meeting that the Company cannot by reason of its liabilities continue its business and that it is advisable to wind up the same and accordingly that the company be wound up voluntarily and that Robert Gibbons (IP No. 9079) of Arrans Limited, Pacific House, Relay Point, Tamworth B77 5PA be and is hereby appointed Liquidator for the purpose of such winding up."

RailUK Forums

syorksdeano · 22 Jun 2019

I always thought it was the rail gourmet lot that did the catering on Cross Country, or at least from Sheffield

dk1 · 22 Jun 2019

Has another provider been found for Stansted & Cardiff/Nottingham routes do you know?

virgintrain1 · 22 Jun 2019

syorksdeano said:
I always thought it was the rail gourmet lot that did the catering on Cross Country, or at least from Sheffield

Catering on XC is in-house with the exception of the Class 170s which operate the Ex-Central trains routes.

221129 · 22 Jun 2019

syorksdeano said:
I always thought it was the rail gourmet lot that did the catering on Cross Country, or at least from Sheffield

No and it never has been.

221129 · 22 Jun 2019

NoOnesFool said:
Apologies if this has been discussed before but I was sorry to read that FisCo, who provide catering on CrossCountry Turbostar services has gone in to liquidization. https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3262793

Condolences to all whose jobs are at risk.

Chance for it to be brought in house.

Qwerty133 · 22 Jun 2019

221129 said:
Chance for it to be brought in house.

Would be the best move, and could quite possibly allow for some efficiencies by sharing crews and stock with the other services. Although probably wouldn't take long for the RMT to argue that their members had lost status if current Voyager and HST catering staff were asked to work 170 services.

route:oxford · 22 Jun 2019

NoOnesFool said:
Apologies if this has been discussed before but I was sorry to read that FisCo, who provide catering on CrossCountry Turbostar services has gone in to liquidization. https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3262793

Condolences to all whose jobs are at risk.

This is just the final winding up. The company entered into insolvency on the 18th April.

221129 · 22 Jun 2019

Qwerty133 said:
Would be the best move, and could quite possibly allow for some efficiencies by sharing crews and stock with the other services. Although probably wouldn't take long for the RMT to argue that their members had lost status if current Voyager and HST catering staff were asked to work 170 services.

If it was the same grade then there would be no argument.

CC 72100 · 22 Jun 2019

In reality surely it is unlikely that it will come in house. Catering does not make money, and I can imagine that those employees of FisCo would be on far less then XC employees on HSTs and Voyagers.

If FisCo couldn't make it work paying much less, then how are XC meant to when if they are within the same grade as their more established counterparts, the catering crews will demand much more pay?

Unfortunately I could see no catering at all as a more likely end result than these employees being taken in house. (I'm not saying I want this to happen before people jump on me for being evil and a nasty capitalist).

Most likely solution I'd have said is a more established outsourcer such as Rail Gouemet taking it on.

221129 · 22 Jun 2019

CC 72100 said:
In reality surely it is unlikely that it will come in house. Catering does not make money, and I can imagine that those employees of FisCo would be on far less then XC employees on HSTs and Voyagers.

If FisCo couldn't make it work paying much less, then how are XC meant to when if they are within the same grade as their more established counterparts, the catering crews will demand much more pay?

Unfortunately I could see no catering at all as a more likely end result than these employees being taken in house. (I'm not saying I want this to happen before people jump on me for being evil and a nasty capitalist).

Most likely solution I'd have said is a more established outsourcer such as Rail Gouemet taking it on.

The catering does make money... and it would be cheaper for XC to bring it in house and with some very clever diagramming base them all out of New St so not even having to open a new centre for them.

Qwerty133 · 22 Jun 2019

221129 said:
The catering does make money... and it would be cheaper for XC to bring it in house and with some very clever diagramming base them all out of New St so not even having to open a new centre for them.

I would agree with this. If XC can operate out of their existing catering depots and the existing back office catering staff can absorb the slight increase in work due to supplying more trains I'd have thought the higher wages would be more than cancelled out by the savings by eliminating the duplication of the back office staff and also possibly through combining duties so that the time spent waiting around was reduced. It is also likely that XC internally can obtain a lower purchase price on many of the items carried due to the greater scale of purchase and the service could become more reliable as any spare staff could be interchangeably be used on all services rather than just some of them and there is a larger pool of people available to offer any required overtime to.

CC 72100 · 22 Jun 2019

221129 said:
The catering does make money... and it would be cheaper for XC to bring it in house and with some very clever diagramming base them all out of New St so not even having to open a new centre for them.

Well in that case it would be bucking the trend. What about the increase in labour costs though? Is there enough physical space for new employees? Would an increase in employees require another manager brought in?

If it makes such economic sense then one has to question why it was subcontracted out in the first place..

(I admire the optimism, and maybe you've got access to more info than me, but I just don't see the arguments stacking up for it I'm afraid)

iainbhx · 22 Jun 2019

dk1 said:
Has another provider been found for Stansted & Cardiff/Nottingham routes do you know?

Yes, at least temporarily, using the same employees in the main. There was a weekend without catering on those routes.

dk1 · 22 Jun 2019

iainbhx said:
Yes, at least temporarily, using the same employees in the main. There was a weekend without catering on those routes.

Okay. Thanks.

Jurg · 23 Jun 2019

CC 72100 said:
Well in that case it would be bucking the trend. What about the increase in labour costs though? Is there enough physical space for new employees? Would an increase in employees require another manager brought in?

If it makes such economic sense then one has to question why it was subcontracted out in the first place..

(I admire the optimism, and maybe you've got access to more info than me, but I just don't see the arguments stacking up for it I'm afraid)

So you're saying that XC will remove all catering from its Turbostar services?

CC 72100 · 23 Jun 2019

Jurg said:
So you're saying that XC will remove all catering from its Turbostar services?

No - I'm saying that the costs of bringing the operation in house would prevent it from being so. Hence in my view it is likely to continue on an outsourced basis.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

CC 72100 said:
No - I'm saying that the costs of bringing the operation in house would prevent it from being so. Hence in my view it is likely to continue on an outsourced basis.

What would these costs be given that they have a catering operation already to add it to? That they'd have to pay the staff properly?

CC 72100 · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That they'd have to pay the staff properly?

Basically yes, that would be my fear.

(and I'm not saying that it is a good thing that outsourcing companies pay less and that is the only way to make the operation viable, but anyone involved with on train catering will know how meagre the returns are... in so far as a loss is more common than profit)

TopsyCrets · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
What would these costs be given that they have a catering operation already to add it to? That they'd have to pay the staff properly?

Zero Hours contracts
minimum wage
no breaks
no Union Representation
no sick pay
anything goes missing such as a chocolate bar then that 80 pence comes straight out of their wages.

Clip · 23 Jun 2019

CC 72100 said:
If it makes such economic sense then one has to question why it was subcontracted out in the first place..

Proabably a hang over from the old Central Trains days and it was probably the companies only venture seeing how it has now gone under

TopsyCrets said:
Zero Hours contracts
minimum wage
no breaks
no Union Representation
no sick pay
anything goes missing such as a chocolate bar then that 80 pence comes straight out of their wages.

You talking about XC here? And as for no Union representation i think they would get that if they moved to XC

NoOnesFool · 23 Jun 2019

There are now only two possible contractors who could take over if it doesn't go in house, Elior and Rail Gourmet. Rail Gourmet taking over would be quite handy, as there are service centres at Derby and Nottingham and I think* Newport for Transport For Wales, but that may have been relocated since At Seat Catering (the previous contractor wound up).

syorksdeano · 23 Jun 2019

Rail Gormet do have a base at the end of platform 1 at Sheffield but I'm not sure if they do freshly prepared food.

NoOnesFool said:
There are now only two possible contractors who could take over if it doesn't go in house, Elior and Rail Gourmet. Rail Gourmet taking over would be quite handy, as there are service centres at Derby and Nottingham and I think* Newport for Transport For Wales, but that may have been relocated since At Seat Catering (the previous contractor wound up).

NoOnesFool · 23 Jun 2019

syorksdeano said:
Rail Gormet do have a base at the end of platform 1 at Sheffield but I'm not sure if they do freshly prepared food.

Yes, they do a large selection of fresh food but Turbostars don't run through Sheffield, the XC trains through Sheffield have catering provided by Arriva from their service centre in Birmingham.

cactustwirly · 23 Jun 2019

syorksdeano said:
Rail Gormet do have a base at the end of platform 1 at Sheffield but I'm not sure if they do freshly prepared food.

I seriously doubt the existing trolley has fresh food on it atm tbh.
It's all pre-packed stuff

Hadders · 23 Jun 2019

TopsyCrets said:
Zero Hours contracts
minimum wage
no breaks
no Union Representation
no sick pay
anything goes missing such as a chocolate bar then that 80 pence comes straight out of their wages.

Pension costs will be a big factor. An outsourcing company is likely to pay the legal minimum under auto enrolment whereas a TOC scheme is likely to be far more generous. Could potentially add 10-20% to labour costs!

Staff flexibility will also be a factor with an outsourcing operation being more flexible about where and when staff are rostered and deployed. If it was merged with the existing XC in house operation then would there be a dispute (strike) if XC wanted existing staff (who might work an XC service to Newcastle at present) to switch and work a turbostar to Stansted?

The other thing to consider is the future of the franchise. Are the Turbostar routes likely to remain with XC or get hived off into another franchise in the future. If there is the likelihood of a split then it might be best to leave things as a separate operation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see it all bought in house but i’m trying to think of reasons why they might want not to.

1e10 · 23 Jun 2019

Why would staff strike over the route they’re asked to operate, assuming all other conditions of work remained the same?

NoOnesFool · 23 Jun 2019

Hadders said:
Pension costs will be a big factor. An outsourcing company is likely to pay the legal minimum under auto enrolment whereas a TOC scheme is likely to be far more generous. Could potentially add 10-20% to labour costs!

Staff flexibility will also be a factor with an outsourcing operation being more flexible about where and when staff are rostered and deployed. If it was merged with the existing XC in house operation then would there be a dispute (strike) if XC wanted existing staff (who might work an XC service to Newcastle at present) to switch and work a turbostar to Stansted?

The other thing to consider is the future of the franchise. Are the Turbostar routes likely to remain with XC or get hived off into another franchise in the future. If there is the likelihood of a split then it might be best to leave things as a separate operation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see it all bought in house but i’m trying to think of reasons why they might want not to.

I can't see XC making Retail Service Managers being asked to work Turbostars. Rail catering staff tend to work fixed routes on circuits which start and end at their home service centre. It would simply be a case of using the existing staff on the existing route.

Hadders · 23 Jun 2019

1e10 said:
Why would staff strike over the route they’re asked to operate, assuming all other conditions of work remained the same?

The railway’s a strange place when it comes to industrial relations!

Sometimes it seems as though there’s a strike if the wind’s changed direction...

NoOnesFool · 23 Jun 2019

1e10 said:
Why would staff strike over the route they’re asked to operate, assuming all other conditions of work remained the same?

Possibly because Turbostars don't have a base where hosts can leave their trolley and belongings between serving and whilst collecting rubbish. Hosts can be quite particular about the routes they work.

CrossCountry's catering provider (First Service) goes into liquidation

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