How do you think ordinary fare paying passengers think of their service?

We have a love hate relationships with railways in this country. People are far less tolerant of delays on the train. It's almost a national obsession to moan about the train service.

Season ticket holders always moan about what they pay which on face value is a huge amount up front but when you break it down per journey you generally see that they're travelling for less than the price of an off peak ticket. People would kick off far more about petrol prices if they had to buy it all up front once a year!

Then there's the delays. Drive into a city centre during rush hour and you'd generally be satisfied if you arrive within half an hour or so of the predicted time. Travel by train and people complain if the train's 5 minutes late.

I'm not trying to say everything's perfect with our train service, far from it. Companies like Northern, GTR, Hull Trains leave a lot to be desired and do need to do better. The fact is journeys made by rail have doubled since privatisation....

Seems to be a national pastime to moan about the railways, if it's all running smoothly there is still ticket prices to moan about.

Johngill100 said:

I often hear this one when season ticket holders mention their pricing. Whilst they are pay x less for the journey than some the occasional user is only investing a small amount of meoney per annum and a tiny tiny percentage of their income.

Season ticket holders on the other hand are spending large sums of money that can be significant percentages of their take home wages. The are also exposed to more of the failures of the service.

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Those travelling on tickets purchasesd for each journey (or return journey) are as entitled to what the advertised service is as much as somebody who buys a ticket that allows them to travel many times. Season ticket holders have not really invested in anything. They have been given a c.30% discount for travel up to a year in times when interest is at a record low levels. They can get a refund of that ticket if they decide to stop travelling as well so it's not much of as risk. It is only political pressure that forces the railway to pander to commuter demands on prices, as they know that commuter seats are generally by far the most expensive to provide.
I have been a commuter though and was well aware that some of my fellow travellers imagined that they were to be held in higher esteem than full-fare paying passengers. It seems that nothing has changed there, indeed in these self-entitled days, thir expectations are even more extreme.

Hadders said:

We have a love hate relationships with railways in this country. People are far less tolerant of delays on the train.

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Quite rightly so, too. The railway is a very controlled environment, and when delays and cancellations occur due to incompetence of the timetabling and diagramming (yes, you, LNR/WMT) it seriously riles. It similarly riles when delays/cancellations are handled badly, with lack of information to passengers and staff.

Road traffic, which is made up of lots of individual units of transport with no overall control and primarily driven/ridden by amateurs, is not comparable.

What passengers want is a seat or to get there quicky. By longer trains they can try and do both but thats no good when you are from a higly populated place trying to go to another highly populated place at the same time

90 coach trains isnt going to help

Bletchleyite said:

Quite rightly so, too. The railway is a very controlled environment, and when delays and cancellations occur due to incompetence of the timetabling and diagramming (yes, you, LNR/WMT) it seriously riles. It similarly riles when delays/cancellations are handled badly, with lack of information to passengers and staff.

Road traffic, which is made up of lots of individual units of transport with no overall control and primarily driven/ridden by amateurs, is not comparable.

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However, in busy times, the behaviour of some passengers can frequently be the cause of significant delays.

At the moment (until August anyway) I leave literally a minute away from Abbey Wood station and so am lucky enough to have two companies at the moment (the third, well, we'll see when THAT opens); admittedly two that tend to finish low on these polls.

I commute five days a week to Central London and I'm lucky enough to have a job where being a wee bit late isn't that much of a worry provided I work it up plus working from home rights if things are VERY bad so I'm usually relaxed about delays in the morning although less so in the evening (although I find that if I know about them in advance and its a total meltdown its an excuse to get the boat down to Woolwich and by then everything is usually fixed or its not as far on the bus) so I'm more worried about the general environment on the trains and stuff.

With Southeastern it feels like everything needs a little investment: the stations can be a little... creepy to wait for a train at late at night and both the Networkers and 385s we have are very dirty and could really do with some kind of renovation to bring them up to standard if not new rolling stock. Overcrowding is an issue coming out of London at peak (we're far enough out to where I'm guaranteed a seat into London in the morning) but there are a few trains that I know tend to not be busy - main ones are like all of the Woolwich line trains that go via Lewisham in the evening peak: the Greenwich line trains are always packed when leaving London Bridge but the Lewisham ones tend to be half empty and don't take any longer - only complain is that the phone signal is terrible between Lewisham and Charlton but that's a minor one and not their fault. Trains tend to always run; lateness isn't an issue and when it is their customer service tends to be pretty good in my opinion. Wouldn't say either way honestly.

Broadly satisfied with Thameslink though: while its prone to meltdowns (from what I gather its the issue where because of the core service being so dense a delay up near Cambridge can have knock-on effects to Luton-Rainham trains that don't go near there) they aren't that regular; they've filled that annoying gap in the weekend timetable now, the trains are clean and nice (plus declassified first is a bonus especially when its the first leg of a journey to Scotland where I can charge everything one last time) bar the seats which are a little annoying. If leisure travelling I'm more than willing to wait ten minutes for a Thameslink unless I need to go to one of the other London terminals or down Lewisham way. I think this is because my commuting times put me on Southeastern a lot more though; so I see that as the main provider with Thameslink being a nice bonus we have (and if I'm down this way when Crossrail opens it makes it incredibly connected) and one that I mainly use at weekends or when I'm travelling up to Scotland so a direct train to St Pancras is already a massive bonus and takes away hassle of changing at London Bridge so it would fit in with the leisure passengers being more satisfied thing.

I was a member of this board and a leisure traveller before I became a railway commuter, travelling Durham-Newcastle. My expereience has actually exceeded my expectations - delays of more than 5 minutes are rare, and I'm able to get a seat on over 95% of my journeys. My season ticket costs less than I'd anticipated paying. Since I started commuting in 2015, I've seen my route go from 4 to 5 trains an hour, with longer trains and some extra services coming by the end of the year (probably!). The May 2018 timetable issues for TPE did cause some problems but these have slowly improved and are now mostly resolved thanks to extended waiting times for trains between services.

I think I'm lucky that my commute uses 4 different TOCs operating over multiple routes, with many of my services terminating at one end of my commute, so that issues with one TOC or route don't tend to completely destory my travel options.

Furthermore, I think my experience has been improved by being very au fait with how the railway works - I can make informed guesess as to which trains will be likely to be cancelled during disruptions, which delays will likely have knock-on effects and what those effects might be, which trains will be busier/quieter, and I know where to go for information about services. Combined with flexible working hours, this means that while the service is good, I've generally been in a good position to avoid the worse of it when there are issues. Other commuters that I know on the route are also relativley positive about it, but less so than me I think. To that end, I agree with the original poster that we are liekly to generally have better expreinces on the rail than your 'average Joe'.

Clip said:

So Virgin then? wouldve been easier to say that but i think they still run services on it as i get them weekly

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Not on the ECML they dont.

I overheard two Americans discussing how bad the train they were traveling on was (which I was also traveling on). They were discussing about how uncomfortable the seats were and how little legroom there was and that there was no buffet car. Listening to them compare what their trains in the US are like makes you realise how much the UK accepts mediocrity. Lots of people have rose tinted specs on when thinking about the railway. For too long it’s relied on people having no choice but to travel by train. Maybe in the future Governments might actually have to take into account how bloody uncomfortable the seats are on modern trains and actually make the passenger environment more comfortable along with people being able to get a cup of coffee after 6pm, or onboard trains.

I live midway between Durham and Hartlepool, my nearest stations, so local rail travel is not an option. But I travel from either station to London and further afield quite often, and often return the same day.

For the latter, and if I'm going further from Kings Cross I usually go by LNER from Durham. The main snag is parking. LNER charge £13.50 to park for a day. Last time I did this trip I arrived just after 6 am to find just four spaces left. Parking in the town centre is also tricky as its geared up for shoppers and 9 to 5 commuters. But there are earlier and later trains than the other option:

Grand Central from Hartlepool. The earliest train is about 10 past 7, the last one back is about 7.30 from Kings Cross. But parking from 6.30 am at Hartlepool station is £2.50 until the next morning (the published prices suggest it's more but the daily rate of £5.60 only seems to apply for 2 or more days).

Both services normally leave on time and usually arrive at about the right time (although the ECML seems screwed up tonight).

Compared to my commuting in the days of steam and BR exhaust fume filled class 117 units, my current trips are fine and much better than 5 hour plus driving each way.

Dave1987 said:

I overheard two Americans discussing how bad the train they were traveling on was (which I was also traveling on). They were discussing about how uncomfortable the seats were...

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The last US train I travelled on had solid plastic seats - so they can hose them down at night, I was told.

Dave1987 said:

I overheard two Americans discussing how bad the train they were travelling on was (which I was also traveling on). They were discussing about how uncomfortable the seats were and how little legroom there was and that there was no buffet car. Listening to them compare what their trains in the US are like makes you realise how much the UK accepts mediocrity. Lots of people have rose tinted specs on when thinking about the railway. For too long it’s relied on people having no choice but to travel by train. Maybe in the future Governments might actually have to take into account how bloody uncomfortable the seats are on modern trains and actually make the passenger environment more comfortable along with people being able to get a cup of coffee after 6pm, or onboard trains.

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That's not really a fair comparison. Most railroads in America aren't for every day use. Instead they compete with airlines and long-distance coach travel for occasional leisure journeys. The seats need to be more comfortable, because you can be on the train for days. American commuter trains/metro trains are comparable to British ones.

US trains are slower than ours, a lot more dangerous, they are incredibly infrequent and there are endless complaints about rude staff and poor catering provision all over trip adviser. On the whole, the UK rail network is excellent compared to the US railroad.

IceAgeComing said:

With Southeastern it feels like everything needs a little investment: the stations can be a little... creepy to wait for a train at late at night and both the Networkers and 385s we have are very dirty and could really do with some kind of renovation to bring them up to standard if not new rolling stock.

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385s ?

Do you mean the 395s (Javelins) 376's, or the 375s ?

Clip said:

This sort of thinking doesn't help as its neither true nor false

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As an ordinary passenger who thinks about their service it is exactly how I feel. I don't think about the 'whole' network and why should I ? I rarely use it and when I do, I'm pretty much locally based. Most of my trains are metro, turn up and go services, Advances don't really exist and the fare is whatever it is when you arrive. You save a few pence by traveling off peak but that's really about it. There's a few special offers here and there and some people can benefit from the variety of discount cards and schemes available but as an 'ordinary passenger' I just feel ripped off all the time. Whenever I take the train to a long far far away destination, I find the cost, frankly, quite disgraceful.

As to reliability... The service is untrustworthy and unreliable and pretty much never runs to time. For me, this is a weird one as the professional side of me knows the statistics for reliability and it technically isn't either true or false. The passenger in me just doesn't see any reliability. I make allowances and get the train before I need to get (this was debated in another thread recently) and the passenger shouldn't have to do it but if you don't then on your head be it. This board is littered with complaints about how reliable the service is. I drive the buggering things and there is just no way I'd put my faith in my train turning up on time, arriving on time or even making the trip. Take tonight for example. I was +2 but pulled it back, sat behind the train in front and lost it all again, then got stuck on a Red and dropped 6 minutes in a single station. That is a broken system and why I, and many others, just see the 'whole' as unreliable.

The service is also a game of two halves. We run thousands of trains a day and PPM can sit around 95% From a technical perspective your delays are a paltry 5% so the service looks reliable but, that small 5% is the same 5% of trains and affects a high percentage of passengers. It really can be a case of 'it's always my train' As the railway moves to RTR (right time railway) you see that pretty 95% drop to a more reflective 65% Which means that 35% of your services do not actually run to time. When you run thousands of trains in a day, that percentage is a pretty high number of trains and people a day.

There is an element of truth to what Samuel says. As a professional I see it through much more rose tinted glasses. It isn't as bad as people make out and we take a lot for granted. The railway is pretty decent and as a 'whole' it is very different to what we see in part. The passenger in me just finds the railway very frustrating. I am very lucky to have both perspectives and they can balance each other out.

Pre-Thameslink, most commuters I knew on my route had an "It's not bad really" attitude. It worked, and it was a remarkably fast way to get into London.

Since last May, it's just been an utter lack of trust. If you can't rely on the railway to get you home, you make other plans. I've got out - I no longer work in London now.

Those season ticket holders rarely choose the train. There is no alternative. It is a Faustian pact. They are tied to it, or they give up their jobs, lose their homes and end up on the street. Of course they pay less Because they allow the company to plan its services and leadings. And also prepay for their tickets. Massively helping cash flow. If they drove into London or elsewhere, traffic would be even worse.

Irregular travellers pay more, but it’s irregular.

My two most regular companies are SWR and GWR. SWR really aren’t bad. It’s network rail that let them down so much. Again, this morning, the issue is NR.

We don’t like the parking, it goes up way more than inflation. Absolute rip off now.

I used to use the railway more often. But we then took an office outside London. I tried to use GWR to get to it. The South Downs Line. Which is a bit unfair on GWR, given how it’s an outpost service for them that crosses two other networks..... so suffers like Cross Country. It was so unreliable and late. And slow. I fly from LGW regularly. I NEVER trust the train to get me there on time.

What I don’t like as a passenger is crush loading. Standing for 40 minutes. I don’t like the fact the Alton trains are almost always late into Waterloo, 6,7, 10 minutes late is normal. Trying to get a train train in from GLD after 0700 means standing. Then we get the smug railway comments like “you’re not paying for a seat”. No, we are paying a load of money. We expect a seat. Whatever the railway claims. And we don’t get one. 20 years ago, seven o’clock in the morning was still early, and loads of space. Now, they are rammed. That isn’t people choosing the train. It is Hobson’s choice.

We don’t like how the trains are slow. They are. They are barely quicker than decades ago. In many cases slower. It isn’t an improvement for us. We don’t care about capacity, about signalling, about pathing, all the stuff that stops them going quicker, all we care about is that our trains run quicker than the 1960s. They often don’t on commuter lines.

We don’t like how the stations have steadily lost their facilities. Most older stations have lovely empty buildings, unused, waiting rooms up heated, toilets locked. Few staff. Little care goes into them. Or initiative into reusing them. That is (or was) presumably a NR strategic decision. Locking up and leaving being cheaper than maintaining to a decent standard.

Johngill100 said:

Season ticket holders on the other hand are spending large sums of money that can be significant percentages of their take home wages. The are also exposed to more of the failures of the service.

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But IS it a significant percentage of their take home wages?
Because if you can afford to work in London, then you're going to have to pay more. That's the deal with London.
If it wasn't sustainable, people wouldn't be doing it. I can imagine it's a combination of ease / cheaper to use the train than any other form of transport.
People just begrudge spending large amounts of money in one go. I can understand that.

Justapunter said:

Those season ticket holders rarely choose the train. There is no alternative. It is a Faustian pact. They are tied to it, or they give up their jobs, lose their homes and end up on the street. Of course they pay less Because they allow the company to plan its services and leadings. And also prepay for their tickets. Massively helping cash flow. If they drove into London or elsewhere, traffic would be even worse.

Irregular travellers pay more, but it’s irregular.

My two most regular companies are SWR and GWR. SWR really aren’t bad. It’s network rail that let them down so much. Again, this morning, the issue is NR.

We don’t like the parking, it goes up way more than inflation. Absolute rip off now.

I used to use the railway more often. But we then took an office outside London. I tried to use GWR to get to it. The South Downs Line. Which is a bit unfair on GWR, given how it’s an outpost service for them that crosses two other networks..... so suffers like Cross Country. It was so unreliable and late. And slow. I fly from LGW regularly. I NEVER trust the train to get me there on time.

What I don’t like as a passenger is crush loading. Standing for 40 minutes. I don’t like the fact the Alton trains are almost always late into Waterloo, 6,7, 10 minutes late is normal. Trying to get a train train in from GLD after 0700 means standing. Then we get the smug railway comments like “you’re not paying for a seat”. No, we are paying a load of money. We expect a seat. Whatever the railway claims. And we don’t get one. 20 years ago, seven o’clock in the morning was still early, and loads of space. Now, they are rammed. That isn’t people choosing the train. It is Hobson’s choice.

We don’t like how the trains are slow. They are. They are barely quicker than decades ago. In many cases slower. It isn’t an improvement for us. We don’t care about capacity, about signalling, about pathing, all the stuff that stops them going quicker, all we care about is that our trains run quicker than the 1960s. They often don’t on commuter lines.

We don’t like how the stations have steadily lost their facilities. Most older stations have lovely empty buildings, unused, waiting rooms up heated, toilets locked. Few staff. Little care goes into them. Or initiative into reusing them. That is (or was) presumably a NR strategic decision. Locking up and leaving being cheaper than maintaining to a decent standard.

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If you don't like crush loading, you do care about capacity.

Agree completely about standing.

cuccir said:

Furthermore, I think my experience has been improved by being very au fait with how the railway works

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This is the key thing. The problem is that if you don't know how things work your passenger experience and choice are downgraded a good deal. We need to make it more understandable and make ticketing and routing simpler to grasp.

yorksrob said:

If you don't like crush loading, you do care about capacity.

Agree completely about standing.

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Sorry, I meant capacity on the tracks. I know it’s hard to run more trains and/or longer ones. Most ordinary passengers don’t. They aren’t interested that we have bottlenecks and the terminus system we have causes problems. But won’t change.

Iskra said:

The easiest way to answer this question is:

Go on twitter: type in a TOC name or a railway line ie 'Bentham Line' and then read the comments...

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I'd be a bit wary of wholeheartedly believing twitter to be honest, it does seem to have a knack of attracting the serial whingers and self entitled people across all industries, non railway included.

Clip said:

This sort of thinking doesn't help as its neither true nor false.

You want to plan - you're journey can be as cheap as chips - and 'expensive' is only relative if you cant afford it and not everyone is like that.

And unreliable, again, depends on where and when you travel and any incident on the day but isnt reflective as a whole.

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At least one of my journeys can't be cheap as chips. Years ago I could book advance tickets and get from Horsham to Manchester for less than £40 return. Now, no matter how much searching I do, the advance tickets cost over £40 one way, making it over £80 return, more than double the cost of the petrol if I were to drive.

stut said:

Pre-Thameslink, most commuters I knew on my route had an "It's not bad really" attitude. It worked, and it was a remarkably fast way to get into London.

Since last May, it's just been an utter lack of trust. If you can't rely on the railway to get you home, you make other plans. I've got out - I no longer work in London now.

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If the present LNR debacle goes on much longer I can see us going that way as well. I've already noticed surprisingly low loadings for discretionary passengers, who I guess are transferring to VT...

The only way is to undertake widespread sampling but even then you are merely measuring perception rather than fact.

Samuel88 said:

No, but just by being on this forum means you have an interest in the railways, and sometimes I feel that having an interest in any hobby clouds one's judgement in that interest.

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phew! I thought I had missed a special discount card for RUK memebers!

GrimShady said:

I also hate ultra hip and excessively familiar TOCs running down the service then telling me how awesome their "improvements" are.

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it is amazing the number of people who fail to understand the importance of PR or branding in modern business.

Iskra said:

Go on twitter: type in a TOC name or a railway line ie 'Bentham Line' and then read the comments...

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But few would bother to comment on good service. I don't think that is a balance or accurate view rather the view of the most vocal malcontents.

Clip said:

You want to plan - you're journey can be as cheap as chips

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No, however far in advance you book or whatever discount cards you buy, lots of journeys aren't "cheap as chips", especially if you're not going into the mainline terminii.

All the longer-distance journeys I've wanted to do this year have been extortionately priced, even when trying to book months in advance. Journeys such as Carnforth to Durham, Oxford, Cambridge, and Warwick. For myself and my son with railcard, every return journey would have been well over a hundred pounds, so far more expensive than the petrol used. I've found you can only get really cheap fares on the main lines, direct to main terminii, i.e. to say Glasgow or London - the moment you need to veer off onto different TOCS and off the main line, there simply are no "cheap" prices. Yes, off peak and advance booking are cheaper that the crazily high walk-up prices, but they're still far too expensive to make rail a viable alternative. Not only that, but the journey durations are also stupidly long too - again, far longer than by car, even without the faffing around with taxis/buses at each end to/from the stations. Finally, because of the timings of the cheapest prices, they can mean you need overnight accommodation if you want a few hours at your destination, so that's even more cost when going by train, that would be avoided by car where you can easily get there and back in a day and still have a few hours there. It's a real shame, I always try to go places by train, but just can't justify the cost and inconvenience when it's quicker, more convenient and cheaper by car. The only journeys we are doing by train are to Glasgow and Edinburgh which are ridiculously cheap.

DarloRich said:

But few would bother to comment on good service. I don't think that is a balance or accurate view rather the view of the most vocal malcontents.

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You would be surprised, there is quite a lot of positive.

But, yes a lot of customer feedback comes with a negative bias.

However, once you learn not to take it personally it is still valuable feedback. It allows trends to be identified and then action plans to be formed. If you get that bit right, you will move in the right direction in terms of overall sentiment.

Twitter is relevant to the OP’s question because it tells you what matters to customers the most. Whether that’s positive or negative. With enough time, you could categorise each tweet to give you a % of what your biggest positives and negatives are by volume of tweets to help you deal with them. There is software that can do that for you.

DarloRich said:

it is amazing the number of people who fail to understand the importance of PR or branding in modern business.

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Oh I understand PR and brand perfectly well regardless of how "modern" its is, hence why their version of it is hideous. Brand image and PR has always been important.

whhistle said:

But IS it a significant percentage of their take home wages?
Because if you can afford to work in London, then you're going to have to pay more. That's the deal with London.
If it wasn't sustainable, people wouldn't be doing it. I can imagine it's a combination of ease / cheaper to use the train than any other form of transport.
People just begrudge spending large amounts of money in one go. I can understand that.

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If an annual season ticket is costing someone £5k, that's well into the double-digit percentage of take-home pay for the large majority of people.

For my part, it's not so much about the money as such, more that I'm paying large amounts of money to undergo a necessary but grimly unpleasant experience. It's basically the same feeling that I have towards going to the dentist, except that I trust my dentist to achieve the expected outcome.

WombatDeath said:

If an annual season ticket is costing someone £5k, that's well into the double-digit percentage of take-home pay for the large majority of people.

For my part, it's not so much about the money as such, more that I'm paying large amounts of money to undergo a necessary but grimly unpleasant experience. It's basically the same feeling that I have towards going to the dentist, except that I trust my dentist to achieve the expected outcome.

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Totally agree. I am lucky enough to be on the above average wage in London by a fair amount, but still 20% goes to the season ticket to get to work. If anybody is paying one fifth of their hard earned money towards something, they expect it to be the experience promised (i.e. on time, with a seat, working wifi to get work done, air con, etc.).