Is it normal for Merseyrail to skip stations when there is a delay?

VT 390 · 23 Jun 2019

Yesterday (22nd June) I was waiting at Bebington 10:14 to Port Sunlight (I was completing the Wirral Line stations) but it passed through without stopping, it was only 15 minutes until the next service but I was wondering if it is normal for Merseyrail to skip stations when there is only minor delays on the network.
This service was only 6 minutes late at the worst time and I know it may have been a couple of minutes late at Chester but why were the only stations missed in this direction when on its journey towards Liverpool it was 4 minutes late but did not miss any stations out.
Also as it was on time again by Bromborough Rake why did it not stop at the booked stops from there onwards?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y30187/2019/06/22/advanced

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

The diagrams on the Chester line are very (too) tight - only 5 minutes layover in a 1 hour, 25 minute run. So if you don't want the whole service in a mess, yes they do need to do that. The diagram really needs an extra unit and crew.

VT 390 · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The diagrams on the Chester line are very (too) tight - only 5 minutes layover in a 1 hour, 25 minute run. So if you don't want the whole service in a mess, yes they do need to do that. The diagram really needs an extra unit and crew.

But why skip stops after it has been delayed more as by missing just one or two stops on it's journey TO Liverpool it would have been on time in the central section and the return journey so would miss less stations overall.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
But why skip stops after it has been delayed more as by missing just one or two stops on it's journey TO Liverpool it would have been on time in the central section and the return journey so would miss less stations overall.

Because if it was 4 minutes late there's a chance it might have picked that up at Chester if the crew changed ends quickly. Whereas once it's gone beyond 5 minutes it WILL leave Chester still late, so they presumably chose to skip a few stops to bring it back under.

Add to that that in the morning greater demand will be towards Liverpool so it makes more sense to skip the other way.

LNW-GW Joint · 23 Jun 2019

Merseyrail do skip Wirral stations, in my experience when they get 10 minutes or more behind.
They then typically skip Hooton to Birkenhead Central (excl) and are often early by then.
Ideally, this is when an E Port service is closely following, so people don't have more than a few minutes extra to wait.
I've also known skipping as far as Moorfields (James St picked up on the way back).
I've also known people for the skipped stations being turfed off at Hooton, only for stops to be made at Rock Ferry onwards as usual - so a bit hit and miss.
Still auto-announced as "Merseyrail Electrics" at Chester.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Still auto-announced as "Merseyrail Electrics" at Chester.

This isn't entirely incorrect, the TOC is still called Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Ltd., even if it trades under the simple "Merseyrail".

Old Yard Dog · 23 Jun 2019

It happens so often that I think they may have an automated announcement that "Passengers for Chester should take the next Ellesmere Port train and change at Hooton"

Changing from the Ellesmere Port line at Hooton, I have been selfishly very grateful for this policy on occasions as it has made the difference between catching the xx35 London train at Chester and missing it. But, by the same token, passengers from Bromborough, Bebington, etc would miss their London connections - but maybe they would have missed it anyway if the accelerated Chester train had stopped at every stop.

HotelNovember · 23 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
This service was only 6 minutes late at the worst time and I know it may have been a couple of minutes late at Chester but why were the only stations missed in this direction when on its journey towards Liverpool it was 4 minutes late but did not miss any stations out.
Also as it was on time again by Bromborough Rake why did it not stop at the booked stops from there onwards?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y30187/2019/06/22/advanced

6 minutes may seem insignificant, but unfortunately unless the delay is addressed on at least the first trip, then you completely lose the diagram to late running if it’s not addressed. Ideally you’d like a right time start on the next departure out of Chester, otherwise you’d end up doing the same again. Not only that it then could further delay something in the Loop (14tph don’t forget) which could impact on the Chester behind and you end up having to do the same with that one too!

I don’t think think you could justify missing a few stations if the train was only 3-4 minutes late.

You are correct that train was on time again, by Bromborough Rake, sometimes it can be hit and miss how much time the trains make up. It would have been pointless telling the train to run as booked from there because, after Spital, it comes under Chester (Hooton) Signaller. So Control would have to tell Network Rail Controllers to tell Signallers at Chester to contact the driver to tell them to run as booked and bearing in mind the stations are very very close together on that line, it’s difficult with contacting the driver on the move and giving a different instruction, and by the time you’ve done all that they’re nearly at Hooton anyway!

Old Yard Dog said:
It happens so often that I think they may have an automated announcement that "Passengers for Chester should take the next Ellesmere Port train and change at Hooton"

Changing from the Ellesmere Port line at Hooton, I have been selfishly very grateful for this policy on occasions as it has made the difference between catching the xx35 London train at Chester and missing it. But, by the same token, passengers from Bromborough, Bebington, etc would miss their London connections - but maybe they would have missed it anyway if the accelerated Chester train had stopped at every stop.

There’s no automated announcement I’m aware of, however manual announcements and messages on the CIS will be placed if there’s an Ellesmere Port in front for anyone to board that train and change at Hooton so at least you are still getting passengers on the move where possible between B.Central and Hooton with potential connections.

It’s not great when people miss onward connections at Chester but some of the connections are that tight at Chester, then you’re right if the train stopped at all the stations they would probably miss the train anyway, at least you are getting some passengers to Chester for onward connections.

That’s another reason why these small delays get addressed, while it’s not ideal for passengers to miss connections, at least it’s only 1 load of passengers, than having more late running trains with continuous delays and hundreds of passengers missing connections due to the constant late running.

VT 390 · 23 Jun 2019

Out of all the stations it did stop at why choose Port Sunlight as that just seams a bit random to me?

Bovverboy · 23 Jun 2019

To skip seven stations consequent upon a train running six minutes late does seem a little over the top when skipping a station will save at least a minute, and usually slightly more, even on an electrified suburban service.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

HotelNovember said:
There’s no automated announcement I’m aware of

Does Merseyrail use the ATOS system? That can do "Passengers for X, Y and Z your next fastest direct service is the AA:BB from platform C" - but not connections that I know of.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

Bovverboy said:
To skip seven stations consequent upon a train running six minutes late does seem a little over the top when skipping a station will save at least a minute, and usually slightly more, even on an electrified suburban service.

The real fix is another unit and crew in the circuit. Five minutes are not adequate layover on a journey of an hour and a half. That's barely enough to change ends, and if the driver needs a wee it'll end up going out a couple of minutes late.

A proper amount of layover is about ten minutes in the hour in most cases. In this case it all needs to be at one end and only has one platform so you can't quite manage that, but it certainly should be the case that there is a unit in the platform at Chester for the vast majority of the time.

VT 390 · 23 Jun 2019

If more time at Chester is needed would inter working between the 4 Wirral line routes be possible, the whole timetable may have to be re done but as it is a mostly self contained network this should not be a problem.
At least then they may not have to skip stations leaving some fairly large gaps in the timetable (it was about 23 minutes since the previous Ellesmere Port service and 30 since the previous Chester service on the service I mentioned above at the stations missed).

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
If more time at Chester is needed would inter working between the 4 Wirral line routes be possible, the whole timetable may have to be re done but as it is a mostly self contained network this should not be a problem.

The pattern has not always been Chester to Chester via Liverpool - in the past there always was interworking. FWIW an extra unit is being added into the circuit for leaf fall season. Allegedly, because they've cut the number of 50x to the bone, this means 3 vice 6 on one of the West Kirby services. And they claim they've ordered enough FLIRTs...

bramling · 23 Jun 2019

Bovverboy said:
To skip seven stations consequent upon a train running six minutes late does seem a little over the top when skipping a station will save at least a minute, and usually slightly more, even on an electrified suburban service.

It’s not over the top given how tightly the Merseyrail routes are timetabled. A number of services, Chester being one, have very tight turnarounds, in this case both ends as there’s essentially no turnaround at the loop end. Therefore the moment the train starts running more than a couple of minutes late it becomes guaranteed that the next journey will start late, again with no recovery facility. Kirkby to Liverpool Central is another one, as is Hunts Cross.

To get the service back there’s three options: reform at the terminus, which is only viable when there’s a train crew depot present, which in the case of Merseyrail only applies to Southport, turn short, or miss stops. If you turn a Chester service at Hooton it misses Chester. There’s little option to turn at the Liverpool end - reversing at James Street saves only a minute or two and risks delaying other services. Reversing at Rock Ferry or Birkenhead Central also blocks the line whilst the driver changes ends, and is very inconvenient to passengers.

So missing stops really is the lesser evil.

The solution is of course to have turnround time at the extremities, however at a number of places there simply aren’t the platforms available (Hunts Cross, Chester, Kirkby and Ormskirk), then on top of that it requires more trains and crews.

There’s an excellent simulation on SimSig which gives a very good insight into all this.

Bovverboy · 23 Jun 2019

Bovverboy said:
To skip seven stations consequent upon a train running six minutes late does seem a little over the top when skipping a station will save at least a minute, and usually slightly more, even on an electrified suburban service.

I see that people have quoted my post and then gone off to say how tight the Merseyrail timetable is, and/or how essential it is to skip stops. The point I was making was that it shouldn't have been necessary to skip seven stops in order to make up a six-minute deficit. To say that it should have been is on a par with saying that if a train is running on time it should skip 2/3 stops nevertheless.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jun 2019

bramling said:
The solution is of course to have turnround time at the extremities, however at a number of places there simply aren’t the platforms available (Hunts Cross, Chester, Kirkby and Ormskirk), then on top of that it requires more trains and crews.

Ormskirk and Chester have capacity for longer turnarounds than are presently used. Both of them used to be operated as "one in, one out" in the 1990s - indeed, it was usual for the unit on the way in from Liverpool to have to wait for the unit leaving Ormskirk to leave the single line section before entering.

As noted above, for Chester an extra unit is being put in for leaf-fall, so there clearly is capacity.

With the Wirral Line you have even more flexibility of timetabling - an inbound train from Chester doesn't have to go back to Chester, it can go out onto another of the 4 branches instead, and indeed it used to do so.

To be honest, this is all like London Northwestern and Northern - TOCs trying to do too much with the resources they have. The 15 minute frequency Chester service was simply a bad idea if it wasn't possible to properly resource it. Or perhaps, if it's the Liverpool to Chester market they were after rather than intermediate stops, it shouldn't just miss Capenhurst but should be a "proper" semifast[1] - there'd be a case for such services on the long, slow Southport line, too.

[1] Perhaps do James St, Hamilton Square, Birkenhead Central, Rock Ferry, Bromborough, Hooton and Chester. For Southport, Sandhills then Bootle New Strand, Waterloo, Formby, Ainsdale and Southport.

HotelNovember · 23 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Does Merseyrail use the ATOS system? That can do "Passengers for X, Y and Z your next fastest direct service is the AA:BB from platform C" - but not connections that I know of.

Yes, but the announcements are manual.

Bletchleyite said:
As noted above, for Chester an extra unit is being put in for leaf-fall, so there clearly is capacity.

At the expense of AM/PM peak West Kirby 6 Cars and some additional peak services to Hooton/Ellesmere Port.

But it is actually a great timetable the Leaf-Fall TT. Merseytravel don’t want it full time though, so what they say goes.

Bletchleyite said:
With the Wirral Line you have even more flexibility of timetabling - an inbound train from Chester doesn't have to go back to Chester, it can go out onto another of the 4 branches instead, and indeed it used to do so.

Problem is you have disruption and rather than being self-contained to one line, it destroys the whole of the Wirral Line.

JBuchananGB · 24 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
For Southport, Sandhills then Bootle New Strand, Waterloo, Formby, Ainsdale and Southport.

I have travelled on a skip-stop up from Southport. Called at Birkdale, Formby, Waterloo & Sandhills. Left Birkdale 12 mins late, reached Moorfields 7 mins late. Next stopping train was running on time. Seemed eminently sensible, as I completed my journey 8 minutes early!

Bletchleyite · 24 Jun 2019

HotelNovember said:
Problem is you have disruption and rather than being self-contained to one line, it destroys the whole of the Wirral Line.

The LNR effect, I guess

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The diagrams on the Chester line are very (too) tight - only 5 minutes layover in a 1 hour, 25 minute run. So if you don't want the whole service in a mess, yes they do need to do that. The diagram really needs an extra unit and crew.

A unit sits spare at Birkenhead Central all day in the off-peak.
Adding a unit seems a good idea but they just seem to waste much of the time gained stopped next to the DMU depot at Chester waiting for the next 7A departure.
That's because of the miserly single track 3rd rail section into P7.
Some flexibility in platforming EMUs at Chester would work wonders (there are outline plans for a "P8" on a new island in the sidings).
.

Chester1 · 24 Jun 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
A unit sits spare at Birkenhead Central all day in the off-peak.
Adding a unit seems a good idea but they just seem to waste much of the time gained stopped next to the DMU depot at Chester waiting for the next 7A departure.
That's because of the miserly single track 3rd rail section into P7.
Some flexibility in platforming EMUs at Chester would work wonders (there are outline plans for a "P8" on a new island in the sidings).
.

Platform 8 would be important for TfW services too because it would allow platform 7 to be used entirely for their services under normal conditions. The new fleet will be much faster which should be enough to make stop skipping very unusual. I have seen services run non stop from Liverpool Central to Chester which is harsh on people who want to board at Hooton and all Capenhurst and Bache passengers. With 6tph between Hamilton Square and Hooton removing stops on one service is more acceptable.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jun 2019

Chester1 said:
Platform 8 would be important for TfW services too because it would allow platform 7 to be used entirely for their services under normal conditions. The new fleet will be much faster which should be enough to make stop skipping very unusual.

True, not only will the trains be quicker off the mark, but door operation should also be faster due to being driver operated (regardless of the presence of a second safety critical member of staff which I believe has been agreed). I'd imagine that could well turn that layover from 5 to 10 minutes for a full Chester-Chester via Liverpool, which is probably enough to keep it punctual without skip-stopping even with the Capenhurst stop put back in.

jamesst · 25 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
True, not only will the trains be quicker off the mark, but door operation should also be faster due to being driver operated (regardless of the presence of a second safety critical member of staff which I believe has been agreed). I'd imagine that could well turn that layover from 5 to 10 minutes for a full Chester-Chester via Liverpool, which is probably enough to keep it punctual without skip-stopping even with the Capenhurst stop put back in.

One of the biggest problems on the Chester line is the often restricted signalling into and indeed out of Chester that very often causes small delays that accumulate leading to skip stopping. This indeed seems to of spread to Hooton since the power box there was moved to Chester and I'm led to believe is the cause of many 'disagreements' between the toc and network rail.

Saperstein · 25 Jun 2019

bramling said:
The solution is of course to have turnround time at the extremities, however at a number of places there simply aren’t the platforms available (Hunts Cross, Chester, Kirkby and Ormskirk), then on top of that it requires more trains and crews.

There’s an excellent simulation on SimSig which gives a very good insight into all this.

Indeed but bearing in mind that SimSig won’t show which lines are electrified, Chester for instance has many platforms but only platform 7 is electrified, thus Merseyrail services can only use this platform (though it is of course used by Tfw DMU’s as well).

bramling · 25 Jun 2019

Saperstein said:
Indeed but bearing in mind that SimSig won’t show which lines are electrified, Chester for instance has many platforms but only platform 7 is electrified, thus Merseyrail services can only use this platform (though it is of course used by Tfw DMU’s as well).

Chester isn’t shown as its outside the Merseyrail IECC’s area, however it won’t let you put an electric train into an unelectrified platform.

I ran a day with quite a few problems occurring at random, and it was constantly necessary to make adjustments to the service just to stay afloat. Liverpool Central in particular becomes extremely problematic when things are running out of course. And of course turning short isn’t always an option in real life if the crew diagrams don’t facilitate it.

Foxcover · 26 Jun 2019

During the day I think Merseyrail’s quite aggressive service recovery on the Chester line makes sense particularly with the Ellesmere Port services following. But they routinely do it in the late evening too, triggered by as little as 7 minutes delay, when there really isn’t the same recovery imperative and it would be better to run the last couple of services a few minutes late, than to leave passengers stranded for up to an hour at fairly lonely stations late at night. If you look at Merseyrail’s twitter feed you’ll see quite a few exchanges from passengers affected by the late-night skip-stops...

Bletchleyite · 26 Jun 2019

Yes, I'd agree that it is probably best not to do it when the service drops to half hourly.

causton · 26 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
True, not only will the trains be quicker off the mark, but door operation should also be faster due to being driver operated (regardless of the presence of a second safety critical member of staff which I believe has been agreed).

I wouldn't be so sure of that...

Newer trains don't always equal quicker door cycle times. (Let's not bring 230s into this! :lol:

) In fact, with the PRM requirements it might be slower, as Merseyrail are often very quick 10-15 seconds stop to start! Now we all know on a 350 15 seconds and the guard's just opened their local door! (obviously not 100% relevant for Merseyrail but still) So it depends on the procedures in place I think.

Bletchleyite · 26 Jun 2019

causton said:
Merseyrail are often very quick 10-15 seconds stop to start!

Not these days, the door bleepers take about 5 seconds on their own. It did used to be like that in the 1980s - they would open just before it stopped and close (no bleeper) soon after, then "ding ding" before closing the local door. The increasingly safe (but slow) method of operation (plus the addition of Maghull North) has increased the Liverpool-Ormskirk running time from 28 minutes in the 1980s to 35 now!

Is it normal for Merseyrail to skip stations when there is a delay?

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member