Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's how the permanent ban on Merseyrail and LO/LU works - you can carry, just not open.
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On "Dry" trains....
- Thread starter Howardh
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That's how the permanent ban on Merseyrail and LO/LU works - you can carry, just not open.
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The idea of dry trains is to alleviate the likelihood of alcohol related disorder. Somebody who has unopened alcohol in a backpack and is by themselves, is not the type of person dry trains are aimed at. Where do you draw the line? Somebody nips in to M&S on the concourse and buys one of their posh meal deals to treat their other half, and with said meal deal comes a bottle of wine....are they given the benefit of the doubt?
BanburyBlue
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I always thought the 0.5% cans of shandy were classed as soft drinks, and that anyone of any age could buy and drink them?
Howardh
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Something like that; I wonder if someone forbidden to drink alcohol on religious grounds could "legally" drink a shandy of that strength?
WelshBluebird
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Anywhere where I have seen trains advertised as "dry", it has always been worded as "consumption of alcohol is not allowed" rather than just having unopened bottles / cans. The idea of banning unopened stuff is just nuts. What if someone had say just done their weekly shop for crying out loud?
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
A lot of people carry alcohol wipes and hand gel that contains isopropyl alcohol. If you add salt to it, the alcohol is separated out and is drinkable. It can be quite lethal but anyone desperate for a "hit" will do/drink it.
Are these going to be banned too or people found with these barred from travelling?
Are these going to be banned too or people found with these barred from travelling?
kristiang85
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I think it might be OK at 0.5%. Some breads have up to 2% alcohol in them, and yoghurt and fruit juice also have small alcohol content - too small to be noticeable, but still more than non-alcoholic beers.
Also I've been to places such as Libya and Iran, where obviously alcohol is a strict no-no, but everyone is publicly on the non-alcoholic Becks, which can have trace amounts from the brewing process still.
How much 'alcohol' - referring to alcohol as a group of naturally occurring chemicals - counts as alcoholic is always going to be a bit arbitrary. A slightly overripe pear is a little alcoholic! Notoriously, beer was not classified as alcohol in Russia until 2011 as it was less than 10% in strength (full story here). Under the 2003 Licensing Act in the UK, 'alcoholic' is indeed anything over 0.5%.
In terms of dry trains - they're a blunt, imperfect tool. They don't prevent drunk people from boarding, and they technically prevent someone with a bottle of wine in their shopping from boarding. However, staff have precious little support in dealing with drunken anti-social behaviour on trains and so something which helps them deal with a portion of possible troublemakers in a station setting where more staff and sometimes the BTP may be present, seems valuable. So in the absence of sufficient resources to safely control what would be ideal - no alcohol consumption services - I think they're probably a necessary evil.
However, in my relatively limited experience of them, most are not policed in terms of extensive bag checks: frankly, if you have some booze that you're taking home in your bag then just lie about it, don't open it on the train, and you're fine.
In terms of dry trains - they're a blunt, imperfect tool. They don't prevent drunk people from boarding, and they technically prevent someone with a bottle of wine in their shopping from boarding. However, staff have precious little support in dealing with drunken anti-social behaviour on trains and so something which helps them deal with a portion of possible troublemakers in a station setting where more staff and sometimes the BTP may be present, seems valuable. So in the absence of sufficient resources to safely control what would be ideal - no alcohol consumption services - I think they're probably a necessary evil.
However, in my relatively limited experience of them, most are not policed in terms of extensive bag checks: frankly, if you have some booze that you're taking home in your bag then just lie about it, don't open it on the train, and you're fine.
Having spent far too many years working in the licensed trade myself I’ve seen far too many crazy examples of this (I have worked for several companies where non alcoholic beers must be ID’d for). Although I have never been on a dry train before I totally see the logic.
I once got ID’d for a pack of rizzla in a Sainsbury’s.......I asked if she’d ID me for a pack of printer paper, she asked why.......
There’s no helping some of these people...
I once got ID’d for a pack of rizzla in a Sainsbury’s.......I asked if she’d ID me for a pack of printer paper, she asked why.......
There’s no helping some of these people...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Again that'll be due to the product categorisation on the barcode - it will simply be the case that all "smoking materials"[1] will be IDable.
Brewdog Nanny State (0.5%) for instance is low enough to be sold to children, but it probably won't be as it's categorised as a beer. This may to some extent be deliberate as it normalises drinking beer among young people, perhaps, a bit like those fake cigarette "candy stick" things kids used to have?
[1] Anyone reminded of the late Phil Sayer at New St? I haven't got any smoking materials on me, I left them in my cases and parcels
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I had them too and don't smoke and never did as a habit (tried it once and it was horrid).
And also see your point about the barcode, however discretion should be advisable. I neglected to mention that this was a fair few years ago now and the mere chance of being ID’d would be wonderful now I’m the wrong side of 30!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Generally speaking supermarket staff and similar aren't given discretion about the product itself. The till will ask them "does the customer look over 25, if not check ID proving they are over 18", with them trained as to what ID is acceptable. If they do it wrong it'll be their neck on the line.
Same for chain pubs - if your manager spots you disregarding the popup with someone obviously underage, that'll be you sacked and marched out.
The only discretion is the judgement on whether someone looks under 25 or not.
If only I’d have thought it was horrid! Oh the money I’d have saved! I started on cigars when I was about 14/15 as wanted to be different (major error) when I got to 20 hamlet a day I realised it was cheaper to smoke cigarettes, and the rest is history.....
Oh certainly, as a pub manager if any of my team blatantly served someone underage they would be gone, however I have absolutely no problem with any underaged (or suspected) person drinking something that is non alcoholic (IE anything under 0.5% as defined by the licensing act).
Also you’ll find MOST chain pubs won’t have the pop ups on the EPOS like supermarkets do as this would be far too impractical being as the main product is alcohol, however I do believe I know the chain you are referring to
kristiang85
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Interestingly I just saw this on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48742530
I'm a bit of a beer enthusiast so one of the joys of getting the train to Belgium is getting my haul of Belgian beers I cannot get over here to put into my collection. It looks like I won't be able to do that now...
I'm a bit of a beer enthusiast so one of the joys of getting the train to Belgium is getting my haul of Belgian beers I cannot get over here to put into my collection. It looks like I won't be able to do that now...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One of the problems with E* is the fairly strict luggage restrictions generally, yet there isn't an airline-style checked luggage service (i.e. one you drop off when you get there and pick up immediately at the other side). It's pretty useless for camping, too, as you can't take a decent knife to prepare food, whereas you can if you fly. They also, if I recall correctly, have a quite condescending wording in telling you this, implying that carrying one is automatically illegal, which it isn't; going camping and requiring one for food preparation, packed well inside your rucksack, is a classic example of a good reason for carrying.
(It might be that the specific laws surrounding tunnel security limit them on knives, in which case the right thing to do would be to be apologetic, not condescending)
Just one of the many reasons they are a nasty organisation, and why flying is superior. Which really shouldn't be the case, but it is.
SN1 19-5
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I went on a "dry" train from Paddington to Cardiff to watch the Mighty Latics get battered in a cup final a few years ago.
No one told the girl in the buffet! She just handed over drink after drink! The bar was completely covered with cash!
Twas a good train ride. Pity about the match!
No one told the girl in the buffet! She just handed over drink after drink! The bar was completely covered with cash!
Twas a good train ride. Pity about the match!
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
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kristiang85
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Luckily I always tend to have what airlines would deem 'hand luggage' going out, but I've usually come back with a big extra bag full of beers from specialist shops which has never batted an eyelid before. Flying isn't really an option as you'd need to check it in, and that risks breakage. Considering I've done trips to Belgium in the past purely because Eurostar have got a good offer on and I've got a spare weekend, and fancy a few beer tours, then they've probably lost some future custom from me. I know many others who are like this too.
As with the discussions so far in this topic (getting back to UK trains mainly), it is being drunk that is potentially offensive not the possessing alcohol part. Yet it is the latter that seems to be what is being policed, not the former.
Smoking is banned on all trains, but people aren't stopped from carrying cigarettes and lighters are they?
The other issue is that people who do intend to get drunk on trains will just hide vodka in a coke bottle (in large amounts), and still get bladdered if they want to. Look at what happened on the tube after the ban - nothing changed.
According to the BBC News report they offer a luggage service, EuroDespatch, which charges a minimum fee of £30 per item.
No idea what to do have maximum fee per item is though or how it works.
A cynic might think they did this to make more money.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As I said, it isn't like airline checked luggage - you have to drop off well in advance and collect well after arrival. So it's useless, basically.
Me neither, and that was 20 years ago when I was 24 (which rather surprised me at the time). I only got IDd in Canada (and I think the drinking age is 19 in Ontario where I was, so that was rather ironic!).
I've heard that many drinking establishments in the US ID everyone who looks under 50, though. It has even been been known for people in their 60s, 70s or even older to get IDd!
Alanko
Member
Why are people so compelled to drink on trains that it warrants splitting it down to this level of detail?
GrimShady
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Are Eurostar offering to return the confiscated alcohol at the end of the journey? If not that's a disgrace.
Some trains out of the main cities at 2330 on a Saturday night are literally full of drunks. Like full of, some requiring to be physically loaded on trains by friends. I should imagine some of the theory of dry trains is to try and reduce this sort of thing somewhat, without having police numbers to literally turn these people away on suspicion of being very drunk and removed, it's easier to advertise confiscating alcohol so the message might get over that the operator would rather customers travel in a fit condition.
In my experience drunk people cause the problems, not drinking people. Rather than stopping normal people enjoying a beer they should perhaps concentrate on stopping obviously hammered and coked up idiots from entering the railway, whether they are carrying alcohol or not.
Drunken, swaggering fools without alcohol allowed on, sober individual with two cans in a bag has them confiscated.
Drunken, swaggering fools without alcohol allowed on, sober individual with two cans in a bag has them confiscated.
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