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WCML InterCity Franchise

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Bertie the bus

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Carefully researched and objectively assessed, I suppose.
You could always try searching for the survey I mentioned earlier and decide for yourself. Alternatively you could post some research which backs up your opinion. Of course you could do neither and just desperately try to discredit the research which has been done.
 
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ainsworth74

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I'm not wholly convinced by the need to retread old ground regarding how delightful/torturous the interior of Pendolinos are on this thread so perhaps we could go back to the original topic which is the award of the West Coast Partnership.
 

EE Andy b1

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Whatever people think about Pendolinos and we know from this forum everyone has there own biased opinion, they do a very good job of moving plenty people about on the West Coast at speed with pretty good reliability nowadays, and there here for another 20 years yet.

I don't think we have one form of rolling stock here in the UK built recently that is 100% what we would like, and it's getting worse!!
So give me a seat on a 390 anytime over most.
The interiors would have been updated from 7 years ago bar all the faffing about with franchises.

Back to First group and why nobody wants them!!:D
 

Bletchleyite

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Horizon won't be the brand, with Horizon Trains Limited having had it's named changed earlier this year. Likely to be London Midland and Scottish (LMS)

It'll be interesting to see how a brand that was used until recently to describe a cheap and cheerful long-distance operation (or cheap and nasty, depending on your view) coupled to a fairly average London commuter operation can be applied to a premium InterCity operation.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I don't think the LMS was ever referred to by its full name during its rather short existence - nor the LNER for that matter.
"London Midland" became the usual name for the BR Region, shorn of the LMS's Scottish lines.
It's worth remembering that the LMS reached as far as Wick, Aberdeen, Holyhead, Swansea, Bath, Shoeburyness and Goole.
For a time around 1960s electrification, BR actually referred to the Region as the London Midland Railway.
The old names died away with BR sectorisation, and Euston routes became Intercity West Coast.
Govia resurrected London Midland for its London-Birmingham-Liverpool franchise from 2007, but that died in 2017 - except at NR, who continue to use the LM code for what are now WMT services in timetables.
(Presumably they will still be using VT for LMS services, like they continued to use GR for NXEC/VTEC/LNER services).

Abellio (WMT) seem to have purloined the LNWR moniker (which is really what the West Coast franchise services are, with a Caledonian element north of the border).
Although I think Arriva actually owns the LNWR company name from its use for Arriva Traincare (Crewe).

Going further back, only the Grand Junction name reasonably fits the West Coast bill, as the other components of the LNWR (L&B, L&C etc) sound too local.
 
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GrimShady

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First group are a darn sight better than virgin! Pendolino interior remains the benchmark of appalling intercity train interior whilst it is virgin we can thank for thrusting voyagers on us. Everything about the virgin brand screams of tackyness .
I for one hope first group have indeed won this competition.

Agreed. I despise Virgin with all my being. Cheap, tacky crap with PR designed to appeal to Hipsters. I don't know how anyone can regard them as "Glamorous".

I'm not sold on the idea of First though.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I don't think the LMS was ever referred to by its full name during its rather short existence - nor the LNER for that matter.
"London Midland" became the usual name for the BR Region, shorn of the LMS's Scottish lines.
For a time around 1960s electrification, BR actually referred to the Region as the London Midland Railway.
The old names died away with BR sectorisation, and Euston routes became Intercity West Coast.
Govia resurrected London Midland for its London-Birmingham-Liverpool franchise from 2007, but that died in 2017 - except at NR, who continue to use the LM code for what are now WMT services in timetables.
(Presumably they will still be using VT for LMS services, like they continued to use GR for NXEC/VTEC/LNER services).

Abellio (WMT) seem to have purloined the LNWR moniker (which is really what the West Coast franchise services are, with a Caledonian element north of the border).
Although I think Arriva actually owns the LNWR company name from its use for Arriva Traincare (Crewe).

Going further back, only the Grand Junction name reasonably fits the West Coast bill, as the other components of the LNWR (L&B, L&C etc) sound too local.

The only reason I say LMS is because the DfT own that name which they might intend to be the franchise name but LMS also suits the franchise it serves London, the (West) Midlands and Scotland.
 

StaffsWCML

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Agreed. I despise Virgin with all my being. Cheap, tacky crap with PR designed to appeal to Hipsters. I don't know how anyone can regard them as "Glamorous".

I'm not sold on the idea of First though.

First are the epitome of absolute incessant third rate rubbish, as are pretty much every single TOC in the UK. We reward mediocracy and forced to accept mediocracy. The DfT seem to be issuing more franchises to the worst providers out there like Abellio and First.

The most decent thing about Virgin is that their management team, and staff management is slightly more competent than the other TOCs. Sadly if Worst Group are awarded this franchise I imagine most of the management and training facilities will be 'rationalised' with their own internal loss making incompetent fools.

Once Worstgroup useless management starts to filter through I would expect a drop in passenger numbers and profits on the West Coast Main Line, I think people under estimate the difference a mildly competent management team can make.

I'm not certain how a company with the financial position of First can sustainable take on the pensions liability when the Pensions regulator is saying a potential multi-billion pound top up is due with in the next few years to plug the deficit. Its not going to end very well.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Talking of Abellio, the main problem with them seems to be an outrageously overoptimistic bid team, be that in terms of rolling stock reliability (180s), rolling stock quantity (GA) or timetabling/diagramming (LNR). Definitely a huge disconnect between sales and delivery.

Which is odd, as Nederlandse Spoorwegen is about as conservative (lower case C) as a railway operation gets - simple, basic, loads of slack.

Whereas with First it's definitely about competence of general management at a senior level.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Looks like FirstGroup are remaining in the rail market so I'd expect an announcement tomorrow or soon after that they have been awarded the West Coast Partnership franchise.

https://news.sky.com/story/firstgroup-signals-shift-despite-failure-of-coast-coup-11748830

Key part is this:

"The FirstGroup board is pleased that shareholders voted decisively against Coast Capital's attempt to take control of the company by defeating all of the resolutions that were put to today's meeting, and notes that, on average, other shareholders voted more than 4 to 1 against Coast Capital's resolutions.
 

bramling

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Agreed. I despise Virgin with all my being. Cheap, tacky crap with PR designed to appeal to Hipsters. I don't know how anyone can regard them as "Glamorous".

I'm not sold on the idea of First though.

Like it or not the Virgin WCML operation has given a feeling of operational competence, a feeling often lacking elsewhere. There has of course been the advantage that they’ve held the franchise from day one, so have had the advantage of management continuity.
 

GrimShady

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Like it or not the Virgin WCML operation has given a feeling of operational competence, a feeling often lacking elsewhere. There has of course been the advantage that they’ve held the franchise from day one, so have had the advantage of management continuity.

Forced to agree with you on that.
 

Bletchleyite

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Like it or not the Virgin WCML operation has given a feeling of operational competence, a feeling often lacking elsewhere. There has of course been the advantage that they’ve held the franchise from day one, so have had the advantage of management continuity.

Though unlike GWR they have mostly done so (and I do agree they are operationally very competent - indeed the whole thing is pretty competent with the exception of the Euston barrier line) with a newish fleet designed to their specification. VT (both WC and XC) was awful in the early days of falling-to-bits Mk2s and Mk3s, though they did do some good innovation in things like single-fare pricing and First Class. It's quite possible that GWR will settle down over the next few years into a similarly competent setup with a much newer fleet than it has had to date.

Then again, it is FirstGroup.

What is worth noting is that Virgin Rail Group was not on offer this time - it was primarily a branded Stagecoach bid with involvement from the execrable SNCF. Not at all the same thing. The proposed open access operation may well be the closest we will get to the continuation of VRG.
 

Robertj21a

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First group are a darn sight better than virgin! Pendolino interior remains the benchmark of appalling intercity train interior whilst it is virgin we can thank for thrusting voyagers on us. Everything about the virgin brand screams of tackyness .
I for one hope first group have indeed won this competition.

Good god no, do you really understand how rubbish First can be ?

I'm not bothered about the Virgin interiors so much when I know that the operator is at least one of the most professional out there.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not bothered about the Virgin interiors so much when I know that the operator is at least one of the most professional out there.

The interior is very much a matter of opinion. I like the deep colours and subdued, warm lighting with the classy use of spots which some other TOCs have copied. Sure, I'd take a couple of rows out and respace, and tweak with the window alignment which could be improved, but overall it is really quite decent, and that is the view most non-enthusiast passengers seem to have, too.

Voyagers, well, they're DMUs, which is the main problem with them, and they need to fix the reservation system or replace it. But the interior is otherwise identical to the Pendolino, but with the benefit of massive windows. (Pendolino windows are quite small vertically, but they are positioned at the right height for a good view, so this is nowhere near as much of an issue as people like to think it is).

The actual seats I find very comfortable, and I'd say the First Class Pendolino seat is my favourite on the network (yes, I know it's not Grammer! :) ). All I'd change in Pendolino 1st is to turn some seats round to give a few more single seats.
 

pt_mad

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For all we know they might announce the award with huge innovative improvements that none of us saw coming. There could be a handful of new trains or new routes or new stops or bi-modes and we have no idea and it could be as soon as days away I guess.
 

StaffsWCML

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It will show the absolute shower of incompetence that this Government are if they now make another award to Worst Group.

All award should be delayed pending Williams review, Court cases and potential new government. It is an absolute waste of time to make awards now.
 

EE Andy b1

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Watch Industrial relations falter under First Group, if they do get the WCP.

The worst fear from staff is the franchise going to First, some have worked and had disputes under them before.
 

StaffsWCML

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Large numbers of the staff think the Virgin Management team are bad, just let them wait until they deal with Firsts!
 

whhistle

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Abellio (WMT) seem to have purloined the LNWR moniker
Which I think (the allowance of the DfT to do this) was a stupid move.
Would have been much better in neatness to have the two spines as LNER / LNWR.

Calling it "London, Midland and Scottish" will just make people think London Midland have taken over from Virgin.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Which I think (the allowance of the DfT to do this) was a stupid move.
Would have been much better in neatness to have the two spines as LNER / LNWR.
Calling it "London, Midland and Scottish" will just make people think London Midland have taken over from Virgin.


The "Midland" in the old LMS name had nothing to do with WCML services, but represented the Midland Railway which barely touched the WCML route, at places like New St and Carlisle.
On the other hand the new name will eventually need to apply to HS2 services from Euston to Sheffield/Leeds/York/Newcastle/Edinburgh etc, as well as Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow/Holyhead.
Scotland might also have something to say about a company with Scotland in its name which the Scottish Government doesn't control.
 

StaffsWCML

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Which I think (the allowance of the DfT to do this) was a stupid move.
Would have been much better in neatness to have the two spines as LNER / LNWR.

Calling it "London, Midland and Scottish" will just make people think London Midland have taken over from Virgin.

The DfT are stupid so it figures I guess.

London Midland coming back to replace Abellio would be marvellous mind....
 

irish_rail

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Watch Industrial relations falter under First Group, if they do get the WCP.

The worst fear from staff is the franchise going to First, some have worked and had disputes under them before.
I find this bizarre as First are by far and away the best owning company I have worked for. I think too many have only ever worked under virgin and it's all they know and they assume it is best.
 

EE Andy b1

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I find this bizarre as First are by far and away the best owning company I have worked for. I think too many have only ever worked under virgin and it's all they know and they assume it is best.

Whatever else, we know your views on Virgin.

Some of us have been on the railways since British Rail and gone through various changes since Privatisation.

I have to say from a personnel point of view, upto about 7 years ago Virgin/Stagecoach was the best company i had worked for since being on the railways, and that was more down to Virgin than Stagecoach that's for sure.

Didn't agree with everything they did and how they went about it but the public in general used to like the Virgin difference.
Trouble is again from my point of view everything has gone abit stale but that is more down to the delayed franchise process and the DfT.
Quite a lot of changes, i believe would have been happening on the West Coast, new trains, refurbishing existing stock, if there had been the right outright winner in 2012.

The West Coast Intercity franchise has been very successful in the years that Virgin have had it and yes they have made plenty of money for shareholders (that's franchising for you), whether some other owning company would have done as well is debatable.
Once again upto the last 7 years staff had generally been quite happy, and yes plenty of them are only there because it was Virgin. Nothing wrong with that in it's self as long as the main focus is still on rail transport and passenger satisfaction.

Have First made much of a success in any rail franchise they've been involved with. They wanted to give the keys back to GWR. SWR, TPE, both not doing great.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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For all we know they might announce the award with huge innovative improvements that none of us saw coming. There could be a handful of new trains or new routes or new stops or bi-modes and we have no idea and it could be as soon as days away I guess.

Super Voyagers could be replaced I suppose allowing new bi-more trains to replace them and the Super voyagers to go to CrossCountry. New services could include Windermere, Bolton or extra Shrewsbury services potentially extending to Wrexham. Bolton might not happen because of the Castlefield corridor issues but there is a good chance that Shrewsbury could get extra services by extending Birmingham services.

But who knows we’ll have to wait
 
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