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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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hexagon789

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If the buffets are abandoned, it'll undermine ScotRail quite significantly. Not so much for the absence of the buffet, but for promising it as part of a 'genuine intercity experience' then not following through. And the buffet counters in the refurbished sets will remain in place as a very visible reminder of that broken promise.

Indeed it will, and as you say - the reminders will be in plain sight. All we can do is see what happens...
 
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R

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There's a article on the BBC website this morning about the scotrail remedial plan stating that driver training has been completed in east of Scotland, no idea if this is referring to the HSTs or 385s.

Any news if set 6 is due north soon.
 

Northhighland

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Outsourcing can be a good thing and successful if the premise is quality and service not reducing costs. There are companies out there who do catering much better than abiello. If you get someone properly motivated to deliver quality catering then it can definitely be an improvement. If though you are looking to cut costs and deliver a service as cheaply as possible there are loads of companies who will do that.

For me the inter7city brand needs the buffet cars. Glasgow / Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Inverness is a long journey. Also business users are working hard at filling their day in the city don't always have time to eat before the train. So something a little bit more than tea and a sandwich is definitely needed.

My fear though is this cost driven and will make things worse.
 

hexagon789

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Outsourcing can be a good thing and successful if the premise is quality and service not reducing costs.

Indeed it can, it's just unfortunate that last time it wasn't.

For me the inter7city brand needs the buffet cars. Glasgow / Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Inverness is a long journey. Also business users are working hard at filling their day in the city don't always have time to eat before the train. So something a little bit more than tea and a sandwich is definitely needed.

Definitely, they do need them and not purely for reasons of "image" and saving-face.

My fear though is this cost driven and will make things worse.

I think a lot of us are worried about that, but so far both abolishing the buffets and outsourcing catering are just rumours.
 

SC318250

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What I suspect is HA21 is fully formed up with power cars in Wabtec this morning.
Another rake due from Ely tomorrow into Wabtec
 

RLBH

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When will the HST refurbishment scheme be cancelled?
When someone comes up with a scheme that is cheaper.

In hindsight, there might have been better options in 2014 when the franchise was bid. Equally, they might have turned out to have other problems that couldn't have been foreseen: look at the issues that the new sleeper stock is having.

To cancel the HST refurbishments now would mean writing off everything achieved since then. It would mean re-running the procurement, coming up with a new design, certifying it as acceptable, finding production slots, and actually getting the things delivered. It's hard to see that being done cheaper and more quickly than solving the problems with the existing program.

That's generally the case - once you've started building something, things have to go pretty appallingly wrong (as in you discover that the design has square wheels and is powered by clockwork) for cancelling the whole lot to be a better plan than fixing the problems.
 

hexagon789

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When someone comes up with a scheme that is cheaper.

In hindsight, there might have been better options in 2014 when the franchise was bid. Equally, they might have turned out to have other problems that couldn't have been foreseen: look at the issues that the new sleeper stock is having.

To cancel the HST refurbishments now would mean writing off everything achieved since then. It would mean re-running the procurement, coming up with a new design, certifying it as acceptable, finding production slots, and actually getting the things delivered. It's hard to see that being done cheaper and more quickly than solving the problems with the existing program.

That's generally the case - once you've started building something, things have to go pretty appallingly wrong (as in you discover that the design has square wheels and is powered by clockwork) for cancelling the whole lot to be a better plan than fixing the problems.

If you cancelled it, presumably you'd have to go back to 170s until something else arrived (which if it was brand-new would take quite some time). Furthermore, are there even enough 170s left to cover Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness, if not then you have to substitute 158s with a further loss of capacity.
 

Highland37

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Cheaper? This hasn't delivered. The most expensive schemes are the ones that cost you money but don't deliver what they promised. This is one of them.

Yes a new order would take time but given what Stadler have now started delivering, clearly much quicker than Wabtec who will never deliver the entire fleet.

This is the Fyra of Scotrail.
 

hwl

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When someone comes up with a scheme that is cheaper.

In hindsight, there might have been better options in 2014 when the franchise was bid. Equally, they might have turned out to have other problems that couldn't have been foreseen: look at the issues that the new sleeper stock is having.

To cancel the HST refurbishments now would mean writing off everything achieved since then. It would mean re-running the procurement, coming up with a new design, certifying it as acceptable, finding production slots, and actually getting the things delivered. It's hard to see that being done cheaper and more quickly than solving the problems with the existing program.

That's generally the case - once you've started building something, things have to go pretty appallingly wrong (as in you discover that the design has square wheels and is powered by clockwork) for cancelling the whole lot to be a better plan than fixing the problems.


Nothing (apart from some 158s ex TfW in few years time) is going to come in an provide the extra capacity at the price the HSTs will.

The HSTs are partially about justifying a big uplift in capacity without brand new stock so it is easier to justify the new stock when that time comes.



What happened to the proposal to get Wabtec Kilmarmock to do some work too?
 

mcmad

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"I think a lot of us are worried about that, but so far both abolishing the buffets and outsourcing catering are just rumours.

Scotrail have issued an invitation to tender (linked above) for outsourcing catering so more than just a rumour.

Edit as the forum software thinks the above sentence is less than 5 characters!
 

RLBH

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Cheaper? This hasn't delivered. The most expensive schemes are the ones that cost you money but don't deliver what they promised. This is one of them.
It hasn't delivered yet, but the trains that are in service are meeting expectations. Even the unrefurbished trains are enough of an improvement over the 170s that customers are generally happy with them.

Starting from nothing, when would the first of this new wonder train enter service? What will be done to cover the services whilst Abellio run the tender and the suppliers design then build it?

In the time it takes to do that, how many HSTs can Wabtec deliver? I suspect the answer is 'all of them', likely with some time to spare. Looking at the timelines for the Stadler units in East Anglia, 3 years from contract to delivery seems about right. That's mid-2022. Without any improvement to the delivery schedules, Wabtec are on track to deliver the last of the HSTs in January 2022.

Is that as fast as we'd like? Well, no. Clearly not. But it's still faster than scrapping it all and starting from nothing. Scotrail are better off working with Wabtec to improve things than giving up the HSTs as a failure.

The major problem arising from the slow delivery is that stock supposed to be released by the HSTs being delivered has had to be cascaded anyway. Which is why we're getting two-car Class 158s working diagrams that a year ago were three-car Class 170s and should be four- or five-car HSTs by now.

What's needed is two things: faster delivery, and something to cover the shortfall of stock. Working with Wabtec is the fastest way to get fully acceptable trains into service. Covering the shortfall is more difficult - the obvious answers are more unrefurbished HSTs, getting some 170s from somewhere, or - heaven help us - getting some 158s from somewhere. Anything else would add new traction types to the Scotrail fleet, requiring crew training, which as we've seen causes no end of problems!
 

Bassman

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Nothing (apart from some 158s ex TfW in few years time) is going to come in an provide the extra capacity at the price the HSTs will.

The HSTs are partially about justifying a big uplift in capacity without brand new stock so it is easier to justify the new stock when that time comes.

What we do well in Britain is to do things in infrastructure "cheap and cheerfully" without longer term thinking. Sadly in this case it is a relatively cheap and not such a cheerful uplift in capacity.
The proof of the pudding is still by next year. However the strategic thinking must look at infrastructure for rail in the future, with serious long term investment. Great to have proper trains being introduced but they should only be considered an interim measure, for Intercity travel that will be carbon neutral.
 

hwl

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What we do well in Britain is to do things in infrastructure "cheap and cheerfully" without longer term thinking. Sadly in this case it is a relatively cheap and not such a cheerful uplift in capacity.
The proof of the pudding is still by next year. However the strategic thinking must look at infrastructure for rail in the future, with serious long term investment. Great to have proper trains being introduced but they should only be considered an interim measure, for Intercity travel that will be carbon neutral.
Part of the point was that more electrification will have been done and Bi-mode much more normal when the HST get replaced.
 

Sickandtired

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I was driving up the A9 last week and glanced over to see a 2 car 158 Rammed full! Really felt for them. Brutal way to travel a long distance. Not sure what would be worse. Standing or crammed into the inadequate leg room at a table post refurb. Standing is the better option

Regardless. That is a pitiful effort by Scotrail for an Inverness service. Amazed the local politicians are not all over this grilling the transport minister. St the very least a 4 car 158 even if meant cancelling services in the borders . Longer service trumps the shorter ones

Heaven only knows what tourists think.
Have not seen it mentioned on here yet but major kickoff on twitter over weekend. People complaining of standing like sardines both e/g to inverness and aberdeen if memory correct. An appalling state of affairs. Glad it was not me.
 

Steven_G

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Where are we with the non-rolling stock side of things?

I read from Scotrail that the East Coast training is complete (assuming Aberdeen & Edinburgh).

Also, and forgive my ignorance of words, these depot plug points. Are these for keeping the PU warm so they don't start from cold?

Lastly the list of PU fixes?

Lots going on apart from the refurbishments.
 

Northhighland

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There is a lot of smoke and mirrors at play here. Yes Wabtec are late and that isn't acceptable and they need to get their finger out. However the product is good, very good and will keep passengers happy for a long time once delivery is complete. Second point to make is the classic sets area significant improvement over the 170's. What is needed is full implementation of the service with HST's as soon as practicable and knock one classic out everytime a refurb arrives. That would take a lot of the pressure off.

We need to get stable predictable performance. That seems to be an issue that is covered over a bit on here and in general. GWR short sets seem to be much more reliable. Getting the classic sets out in service is also a challenge. We need to see if the right level or refurb was done on the power cars and are the maintenance staff getting the right support. The staff have been excellent at keeping the fleet of 170's operating, I travel regularly and breakdowns are a very rare occurrence. So the staff are perfectly capable, have they been given the right training and equipment to keep these older trains running? Have they had the right support from the GWR teams that know them? Also LNER HST's seem to be a lot more reliable, is there learning form them, I understand the power cars are different and LNER examples have had more upgrading but maybe something could be learned.

The refurb is taking longer but the big issue now has to be getting the HST service up and running reliably and predictably be it classic or refurb. Otherwise this has the potential to be so discredited in the public view there will be no recovery. Getting the catering working properly also helps, although staff shortages apart I personally have seen nothing other than a pretty decent service on the HML. Could be improved though.
 

Northhighland

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When someone comes up with a scheme that is cheaper.

In hindsight, there might have been better options in 2014 when the franchise was bid. Equally, they might have turned out to have other problems that couldn't have been foreseen: look at the issues that the new sleeper stock is having.

To cancel the HST refurbishments now would mean writing off everything achieved since then. It would mean re-running the procurement, coming up with a new design, certifying it as acceptable, finding production slots, and actually getting the things delivered. It's hard to see that being done cheaper and more quickly than solving the problems with the existing program.

That's generally the case - once you've started building something, things have to go pretty appallingly wrong (as in you discover that the design has square wheels and is powered by clockwork) for cancelling the whole lot to be a better plan than fixing the problems.

Spot on hindsight is 2020 vision. The sleeper debacle is as bad as the HST programme, the 385 programme was also way behind schedule, look at how long it is taking to get mk5 coaches working on the trans Pennine routes. No guarantee any new build would have been quicker or better. At least here we know the product is good if late.

Classic HST's are not a problem, passengers like them and they are much better than 170's. just get them working.
 

mcmad

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how many more seats is there in a 4 coach HST (only 3 standard class coaches) versus a 170 with 1st? Can't be that much in it?
 

Darandio

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how many more seats is there in a 4 coach HST (only 3 standard class coaches) versus a 170 with 1st? Can't be that much in it?

I think it's something like a 24 seat increase in standard and 14 seat increase in first.
 

scotraildriver

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Spot on hindsight is 2020 vision. The sleeper debacle is as bad as the HST programme, the 385 programme was also way behind schedule, look at how long it is taking to get mk5 coaches working on the trans Pennine routes. No guarantee any new build would have been quicker or better. At least here we know the product is good if late.

Classic HST's are not a problem, passengers like them and they are much better than 170's. just get them working.

They are working. Very well. But as I already said for several reasons, including A to I upgrading not much on the HML. However between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen they are doing a fine job. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about reliability, there have been very few issues. Certainly a high profile turbo failure wasn't ideal but a problem which can affect any diesel engine. There have been alot more 170 failures than HSTs.
 

chuff chuff

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They are working. Very well. But as I already said for several reasons, including A to I upgrading not much on the HML. However between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen they are doing a fine job. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about reliability, there have been very few issues. Certainly a high profile turbo failure wasn't ideal but a problem which can affect any diesel engine. There have been alot more 170 failures than HSTs.

I know i've probably come over as being a little bit of a downer about this whole project and sometimes rightly so and there's no doubt mistakes have been made but it's coming together now,not perfect but getting there.
As has been said there was a large knowledge and experience gap and some of the stock hasn't been in best nick and it has taken a while to workout the required TLC.
 

Highlandspring

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Also, and forgive my ignorance of words, these depot plug points. Are these for keeping the PU warm so they don't start from cold?

Lastly the list of PU fixes?
What does ‘PU’ stand for? I’m unfamiliar with the acronym.
 

Northhighland

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They are working. Very well. But as I already said for several reasons, including A to I upgrading not much on the HML. However between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen they are doing a fine job. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about reliability, there have been very few issues. Certainly a high profile turbo failure wasn't ideal but a problem which can affect any diesel engine. There have been alot more 170 failures than HSTs.

I have no evidence to say you are not correct apart form seeing sets in bits at Haymarket and in Inverness while stuck on a packed 158 or a 170. I am sorry but don't really care about the closure on the Inverness to Aberdeen line, is planned there are plenty of HST's so why cant this just be delivered. I know it may not be as simple as that but it appears so to passengers.
 
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