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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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mt4958

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It will be interesting to see what happens. At the moment off peak returns costs £77 from Kettering compared to £36 from Huntingdon. If the intercity quality is lost it will be interesting to see the impact on leisure demand (i’m assuming most commuters won’t choose to change routes)
 
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hooverboy

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By lots of rumours (plus the photos), the 360s were available sooner and probably had cheaper leasing costs
plus abellio already leased them on GA.
they will have some idea of operational capability.

FWIW an 8 car 360 set up for the corby's, uprated for 110mph, with a stop thrown in at st albans is still a VERY good upgrade on a 5 car(4.5 car in terms of seating) meridian.
 

hooverboy

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I think you will find some platform lengthening is required at Wellingborough and Kettering alone for 12-car 240m EMU formations. Wellingborough will be interesting because with four tracking I am assuming a reinstatement of platform 4 and a pretty big build out of platform 3.
indeed.
neither can take a full 8 car (23m)set as it is.they can basically cope with loco +8* C1(20M)

Wishful thinking that you'll get such an extension.if you are lucky you'll get enough platform for 8*23m in the future, but 12 car....naah
 

Martin222002

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indeed.
neither can take a full 8 car (23m)set as it is.they can basically cope with loco +8* C1(20M)

Wishful thinking that you'll get such an extension.if you are lucky you'll get enough platform for 8*23m in the future, but 12 car....naah
Nope. Network Rail have already submitted planning applications for lengthening all the platforms at Wellingborough & Kettering, as well as a 4th platform at Wellingborough, for 240m trains. Aka the length of a 12 car 360 formation.
 

hooverboy

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submitting an application is not necessarily the same as actually doing.Network rail are not exactly flush for cash at the moment either,and politicians can and do move goalposts.

platform 3/4 at wellingborough will certainly go ahead, but I fully expect the scope of such upgrades will be a little more conservative in actuality against the original proposition.

you have to bear in mind that an 8 car 360 set is basically 600 seats, as opposed to 300 or so for a 5 car 222.That's already quite a bit of future-proofing built in.
(granted the 5 car 222 set is 1 carriage too short in the first place!)
 

Martin222002

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submitting an application is not necessarily the same as actually doing.Network rail are not exactly flush for cash at the moment either,and politicians can and do move goalposts.

platform 3/4 at wellingborough will certainly go ahead, but I fully expect the scope of such upgrades will be a little more conservative in actuality against the original proposition.

you have to bear in mind that an 8 car 360 set is basically 600 seats, as opposed to 300 or so for a 5 car 222.That's already quite a bit of future-proofing built in.
(granted the 5 car 222 set is 1 carriage too short in the first place!)
The official Network Rail MML upgrade website (linked below) seems to state the contrary (at least in detail for Wellingborough).

https://midlandmainlineupgrade.co.uk/station/wellingborough/
https://midlandmainlineupgrade.co.uk/station/kettering/

More on topic, I’m pretty sure that everything we have heard so far has stated that the Corby EMUs are to work in up to 12 car formations.
 

700007

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submitting an application is not necessarily the same as actually doing.Network rail are not exactly flush for cash at the moment either,and politicians can and do move goalposts.

platform 3/4 at wellingborough will certainly go ahead, but I fully expect the scope of such upgrades will be a little more conservative in actuality against the original proposition.

you have to bear in mind that an 8 car 360 set is basically 600 seats, as opposed to 300 or so for a 5 car 222.That's already quite a bit of future-proofing built in.
(granted the 5 car 222 set is 1 carriage too short in the first place!)
That's 600 seats on the assumption the current layout stays the same. The expectation here is to change this to 2+2 seating. If we are going by class 350 figures that are very similar units then we are talking around 460 seats. Still an improvement on a 5-car 222, but still less so than the 600 quoted earlier.
 

InTheEastMids

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I think the decision to row back from all the public commitments to 240m trains would be extraordinary. But hey, Grayling is still in charge.

Plus it's likely that these services will be the principal commuter services for Bedford, which is where the 12-car will come in handy.

Have never seen any plan to do stops at St Albans, but plans can be changed, there have been one or two notable score changes in the MML electrification programme before...
 

whhistle

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The devil is always in the detail! A real danger of Chinese whispers things get passed along.

New fleet "introduced in December 2022" agrees with the tender, it doesn't imply complete replacement by then, just having the first unit in service.
:p I think you mis-understand.
I have literally copied the text from the source (IE, Abellio) and annotated in italics. I have no reason to think the 3rd party I received it from doctored it in any way.
You can try to prove something but it's falling on deaf ears - you should raise your concerns with Abellio.
I don't care if they're introduced "by December 2022" or "during December 2022", I'm just passing on information, which some may find helpful.
 

londonmidland

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I notice Hull Trains are still cancelling services due to, what I presume, is unit unavailability/failures.

What I want to know is what EMR is going to do differently to prevent these problems from constantly arising when the 180’s get introduced?

Different/more intensive maintenance perhaps?
 

ainsworth74

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What I want to know is what EMR is going to do differently to prevent these problems from constantly arising when the 180’s get introduced?
Who says they will do anything different? I can well believe that this idea has come from the bid team who have no actual plan for how this is going to work in practice. Indeed I suspect if they spoke to operational types they'd have been warned off and left in doubt where they could place that idea!
 

samuelmorris

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Who says they will do anything different? I can well believe that this idea has come from the bid team who have no actual plan for how this is going to work in practice. Indeed I suspect if they spoke to operational types they'd have been warned off and left in doubt where they could place that idea!
Second vote for 'nothing'. I didn't share the initial cynicism about the stock plans in Abellio's plans for GA but it's clear several major oversights were made. I can only assume this is another.
 

Aictos

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Have never seen any plan to do stops at St Albans, but plans can be changed, there have been one or two notable score changes in the MML electrification programme before...

Indeed but I can’t see why they would need to stop at St Albans, it already has 4tph fast to St Pancras, 2tph semi fast to St Pancras and 4tph stopping to St Pancras - does it really need MORE?

That’s 10tph off peak which is more then enough, they don’t need any more!

Luton Parkway is served by a hourly Nottingham while Luton is served by a hourly Corby, I’m happy for this to continue BUT with a easement in place to allow passengers to board at Luton and to double back to Parkway to get the Nottingham service.
 

F Great Eastern

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Who says they will do anything different? I can well believe that this idea has come from the bid team who have no actual plan for how this is going to work in practice. Indeed I suspect if they spoke to operational types they'd have been warned off and left in doubt where they could place that idea!

For a moment I thought you were talking about Greater Anglia, then I realised this was a thread about EMR :)
 

mt4958

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Does anyone think Corby will retain catering facilities? Do 360's run anywhere with either a snack bar or a trolley setup?
 

hexagon789

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Does anyone think Corby will retain catering facilities? Do 360's run anywhere with either a snack bar or a trolley setup?

Not that I know of, if they do it'll be a trolley at most. I strongly doubt they'll fit the 360s with a buffet.
 

43096

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Who says they will do anything different? I can well believe that this idea has come from the bid team who have no actual plan for how this is going to work in practice. Indeed I suspect if they spoke to operational types they'd have been warned off and left in doubt where they could place that idea!
We might just find out if the issue is the 180s - granted they have never been great mechanically - or if Crofton have made a spectacularly bad job of them.
 

hexagon789

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We might just find out if the issue is the 180s - granted they have never been great mechanically - or if Crofton have made a spectacularly bad job of them.

I think I've missed something - EMR are getting 180s?
 

700007

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The only way EMR could try and cushion the blow of inheriting the class 180s thanks to the actions of their questionable bidding team, is by trying to diagram them on light duties where they're only working two peak journeys a day or something like that and spend the rest of it sitting in the depot doing nothing. Even if they fail, it will only impact very few journeys a day.
 

Helvellyn

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submitting an application is not necessarily the same as actually doing.Network rail are not exactly flush for cash at the moment either,and politicians can and do move goalposts.

platform 3/4 at wellingborough will certainly go ahead, but I fully expect the scope of such upgrades will be a little more conservative in actuality against the original proposition.

you have to bear in mind that an 8 car 360 set is basically 600 seats, as opposed to 300 or so for a 5 car 222.That's already quite a bit of future-proofing built in.
(granted the 5 car 222 set is 1 carriage too short in the first place!)
But if it is true 360s are coming then I think 12-car platforms will be needed. And the reason being that the Corby services will stop at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton Airport and St Pancras. That reinstated Bedford stop will eat up a bit of capacity. Plus no guarantee Kettering/Wellingborough will keep as many peak services as they have today.

Also with no through connection between units you're going to want to be able to open all doors at stations. Messy trying anything else.
 

F Great Eastern

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Also with no through connection between units you're going to want to be able to open all doors at stations. Messy trying anything else.

They don't have corridor connections at the moment, no, however a rumour from a source I have no prior dealings with is going around that the current cab ends are not rated for 110mph so may have to be replaced which leaves open.....

It's probably just Chinese whispers since I don't know the person that well so I wouldn't take it as a given as it's not one of my reliable sources.
 

samuelmorris

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They don't have corridor connections at the moment, no, however a rumour from a source I have no prior dealings with is going around that the current cab ends are not rated for 110mph so may have to be replaced which leaves open.....

It's probably just Chinese whispers since I don't know the person that well so I wouldn't take it as a given as it's not one of my reliable sources.
If they require that much work I can't see them taking the 360/1s, they'd go with the 379s instead which do have a cab rated for 110, and gangway connectors. Replacing all of those cabs would cost an absolute fortune.
 

F Great Eastern

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If they require that much work I can't see them taking the 360/1s, they'd go with the 379s instead which do have a cab rated for 110, and gangway connectors. Replacing all of those cabs would cost an absolute fortune.

Exactly, which is why I can't see it being a starter.
 

700007

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If they require that much work I can't see them taking the 360/1s, they'd go with the 379s instead which do have a cab rated for 110, and gangway connectors. Replacing all of those cabs would cost an absolute fortune.
Forget that, you may as well go for the 350/2 coming off lease that have the open gangway and are already 110mph units. Porterbrook surely if they had sense would also stop being so uptight and charging heaven and earth to use the trains considering the amount of cheaper ROSCOs now in the market.
 

samuelmorris

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Forget that, you may as well go for the 350/2 coming off lease that have the open gangway and are already 110mph units. Porterbrook surely if they had sense would also stop being so uptight and charging heaven and earth to use the trains considering the amount of cheaper ROSCOs now in the market.
I agree but unless anybody else has actually claimed the 379s, it seems more likely for them to haggle down on stock Abellio have used before rather than a different fleet. The Desiro is not a unit familiar to this franchise, so they aren't wedded to using it.
 

4-SUB 4732

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One thing will stop them taking 379s:

There’s 30 of them. We’ve worked out independently they need no more than 18 units a day with all 6 cycles on the Corby route being 12 car. Why would you have 12 maintenance spares instead of 3?

Moreover, it’s been confirmed they’re having 360s. Will they be able to update the incumbent cabs for 110mph? Of course they will.
 

43096

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Forget that, you may as well go for the 350/2 coming off lease that have the open gangway and are already 110mph units. Porterbrook surely if they had sense would also stop being so uptight and charging heaven and earth to use the trains considering the amount of cheaper ROSCOs now in the market.
So you know what Porterbrook are going to charge for future leases, do you?

The 350/2s were not an option for EMR as they are not replaced by the Aventras on LNR until 2021 and the Corby requirement is December 2020.
 
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