Was it 6 mk4s and the loco and DVT with the option of adding a 7th if required? Can't quite remember what the application said?
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Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021
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Don't forget it can be possible for drivers and guards to be booked to 'pass back' on a passenger train. E.g. they could get a West Coast, or a GC service back up north as a passenger rather than working a train back.
hexagon789
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I think it was seven - Class 91 + 7 Mk4s + Mk4 DVT.
It reminds me of North West trains venture in the 1990's. Their Blackpool to Euston class 158 picked up at Poulton, Kirkham, Leyland, Euxton and Newton-le-Wlillows. Although it stopped at Warrington BQ to join up with the Rochdale portion, passengers couldn't join the train there.
hexagon789
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That seems far more farcical than running through non-stop. I assume they had to physically turn away passengers attempting to board?
Mr Ford did used to have his "Informed Sources Laws" on his website but his website appears to have itself died. Thankfully the Web Archive has a copy and it was the Third law which I was recalling which is defined as being:
Link
So, I would suggest that the Third Law applies to this current situation with Grand Central and Blackpool!
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Ah, so when they are vague about introduction dates, giving a rough time of year rather than a specific date, then one should take it with a heavy pinch of salt.
If I were to place my own money on the outcome, i'd bet it never happens.
I agree. Its been delayed too many times for it to be important for Arriva.
Is the planned Grand Central service compatible with Virgin's open access application?
Taking the times that have been posted, going from Milton Keynes to Glasgow. If departing on the proposed 13.10 GC service and changing at Preston with the current West Coast timetable, you'd arrive at Glasgow at 17.59.
Compare that to departing Milton Keynes today at 13.13 on the Edinburgh and change at Preston as journey planners suggest and you arrive at Glasgow at 1842. So in that particular hour when the Edinburgh is the service calling at Milton Keynes rather than the Glasgow, it appears it would be faster to get the proposed GC and change at Preston for Glasgow.
Compare that to departing Milton Keynes today at 13.13 on the Edinburgh and change at Preston as journey planners suggest and you arrive at Glasgow at 1842. So in that particular hour when the Edinburgh is the service calling at Milton Keynes rather than the Glasgow, it appears it would be faster to get the proposed GC and change at Preston for Glasgow.
I love this forum precisely because of this quirkI see that despite ORR approval, the usual RailUK cynicism about open access operations has started already.
Silver Cobra
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It'll be interesting to see what fares for GC from Milton Keynes to Blackpool will be like. For my last journey to/from Blackpool last week, I travelled with LNER and Northern via Leeds and the Calder Valley, as while it takes nearly 5 hours each way, it is a lot cheaper than travelling with Virgin Trains from Euston or Milton Keynes Central. If GC offer fares at a similar cost to those via the Calder Valley, I may consider for my 2020 trip to Blackpool using the X5 to MK and travelling with them instead.
One added benefit with GC being that I can continue travelling on a 91/Mk4 service
One added benefit with GC being that I can continue travelling on a 91/Mk4 service
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I see that despite ORR approval, the usual RailUK cynicism about open access operations has started already.
I love this forum precisely because of this quirk
I love the fact that some see ORR approval as some sort of dead cert that the service will go ahead.
I suppose that's something of an elephant in the room actually. With Arriva in line to be sold or otherwise disposed of by DB in the nearish future will the new owner want to carry on with a new open access operation? Past experience suggests that such operations are loss making for a number of years before they start to turn a profit (if they ever do).
Having a skim through Hull Trains accounts they started in September 2000 and the first set of accounts that show a profit weren't until those for the year ending 31 March 2003, they slipped back into loss the next year and didn't start turning a consistent profit until the year ending March 2005. So around four or five years. Grand Central started operations in December 2007 and it took them until the year ending 31 December 2012 to show a profit again taking around five years like HT.
Now this new operation has the benefit of being part of an existing operation so the start up costs perhaps won't be quite as severe as they were for GC and HT but still it'll take time for the route to develop. Even if the time is shortened will the eventually owner of Arriva be willing to wait three, four or maybe five years to start seeing a return on the Blackpool service? In the mean time will they be happy for it to eat into the money being provided by Grand Central?
Bertie the bus
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That's the wrong question. Grand Central have already been given the paths so the question is is Virgin's application compatible with this? I'm sceptical the Grand Central service will start. I'd place a large wager on the Virgin one not doing so.
My thoughts exactly, there are far too many variables within this scenario alone that can still yet scuttle the ship.
Well yes, though having that attitude towards everything would soon draw a discussion forum to a halt, as we'd all agree that everything was not going to happen!
I'm more positive. They've not done anything so far, true. That was not entirely their doing. This time could be different (though what price Virgin's own OA bid?)
Bertie the bus
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Yes, I have no idea what ORR approval has got to do with a service starting when the operator says they plan to start it. Arriva have had approval for this service in various forms for years.
Is that all they have or might they have firm rights to the paths and a lease agreed on trains as well?
Very true!
As above, I think it all rests with the future of Arriva.
hexagon789
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It does seem to be quite shaky in many respects. Still, I'd rather it did happen than not.
RealTrains07
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No chance in that happening now unless the department for transport let virgins bid go through again
I doubt GNWR will be a big issue for virgin since their only gonna be around till next spring at the latest to see GNWR happen
If I’m in London ahead of it at 1859, then I have to have got past it somewhere haven’t I. Arriving at MK 1823. 34.5 minutes to get in from a standing start suggests that GC being in front would make it impossible.
Mitchell Hurd
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It's come as a surprise to me that Grand Central are running this rather than GNWR. How come it's not starting from this September 16th as originally planned?
The Planner
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Which is why I reckon the Liverpool could have minutes put into it, nothing to stop that happening.
LNW-GW Joint
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The Alliance approval from ORR was always conditional on paths being agreed by NR (rolling stock type and stopping pattern).
Originally it was for 125mph stock which proved impossible to source, and now we have 91+Mk4 which proved difficult to path and obtain - there is still no announcement on stock.
Approval is also only until HS2 opens.
On the widest front, the OA application is for Arriva to break the WC franchise monopoly as much as it is to make a profit.
We'll have to see if Arriva's new owners (when it changes hands) are as keen to start the service.
We know that First Group is having real problems with its rail portfolio as well, with ECML OA services at stake, as well as franchises.
swt_passenger
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I thought they’d done this before, changing the West Yorkshire services to GC just before they eventually commenced?
It may be worth a mention that London Northwestern wasn't even heard of when Great North Western Railway was proposed. Neither was LNER afaik? Grand Central seems to make total sense imo.
It couldn't operate from September without having trains leased to them months before for training and route clearance. And the 225 sets have been delayed being released from the East Coast franchise as Transport for Wales don't have theirs yet.
irish_rail
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Been happening on the western for years it's an inevitable result of too many small trains on the network.
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