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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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Chris217

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Given the current state of play.
Be prepared for rail replacement buses
If you want Pacers gone by 31st Dec 2019.
Both Northern and TFW.

I know which one I'd prefer.
 
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Chester1

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Given the current state of play.
Be prepared for rail replacement buses
If you want Pacers gone by 31st Dec 2019.
Both Northern and TFW.

I know which one I'd prefer.

Aren't the first 195s due to enter service a week tomorrow?
 

Grannyjoans

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What does it take to replace the 78 (?) Northern rail bus units ?
98 new Units are on the way.
319 flex isn't far off.
More 150's, 156's & 158's are arriving, or have recently arrived.
Electrification has recently been completed.
Other cast-off Units are on the way (Which class, or how many, I can't remember)

Hopefully the 150s will soon be gone as well.
 
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Phlip

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What does it take to replace the 78 (?) Northern rail bus units ?
98 new Units are on the way.
319 flex isn't far off.
More 150's, 156's & 158's are arriving, or have recently arrived.
Electrification has recently been completed.
Other cast-off Units are on the way (Which class, or how many, I can't remember)

Hopefully the 150s will soon be gone as well.

Northern has 102 Pacers:

79 Class 142s
23 Class 144s - 10 of which are 3 car.

Only 101 of those has to be withdrawn as 144012 is PRM compliant
 

Bertie the bus

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Indeed there are 102 Northern Pacers. The 769s haven't been far off for about a year, I'm not aware of any large scale cascades still to come to Northern, and of these 98 new units Northern's official current estimate is approx 70% will be in service by the end of this year.
 

Paul_10

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Remember there are 20 153s still need to go also although it will make more sense if they were indeed kept and be paired with a compliant unit.

See where we are by October time and see if there is any further updates when these trains are meant to be withdrawn.
 

Killingworth

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Given the stock shortage, and the political commitment to withdraw Pacers, it would be crazy to scrap 20 153s. Adding them to other 15x units should be feasible as a partial stop gap until such time as more new stock is available or they can be made fully compliant.

153s are a versatile way to add modest capacity to an otherwise constricted system that only offers 2, 3, 4 or 5 coach multiples. We really need some modern versatile single carriage units to be quickly coupled up to any multiple unit. Every time I have to stand on a 3 car 185 (as often as not at present) I wonder about the wisdom of doubling the length when 4 or 5 would do. Same goes for a crowded 2 car 150 where 4 cars aren't really needed yet, but might be in 5-10 years.

The current trend towards relatively short runs of incompatible units that won't be able to work together may well ensure some classes have much shorter lives than 14xs and 15xs.
 

Grannyjoans

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Remember that the order for 195s have recently been extended. To what numbers I can't remember.
It all depends on 769 Flex. If these work, that will get rid of a lot of 142's. The orders for these could be extended: They would have to be now that the plans are to extend the Stalybridge/Alderley Edge services to Southport instead of Wigan NW.
The 20 153's may not be scrapped at the end of this year but it will still be possible to get rid of them in the short term future.
 

darloscott

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So with 195s and 331s potentially starting to enter service next Monday, I wonder if there is a chance we will start to see 142s withdrawn or I wonder if will they utilise those to send more units away for PRM conversion? If there is any spare capacity anywhere that can do them, of course.
 

Grannyjoans

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195s are meant to enter service next month (possibly next week) on Windermere/Barrow - Manchester Airport

AFAIK the 331s are not entering service next month there is hardly any 331 training going on at least on the west side. Loads of 195 training however.
 
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Greybeard33

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Given the stock shortage, and the political commitment to withdraw Pacers, it would be crazy to scrap 20 153s. Adding them to other 15x units should be feasible as a partial stop gap until such time as more new stock is available or they can be made fully compliant.
The 153s are not PRM compliant even when coupled to a compliant unit. The toilet could be locked out of use, but I very much doubt it would be feasible to do the other required mods (e.g. PIS displays and door controls) by the end of the year.

Has the DfT given any indication it is willing to allow non-compliant units to remain in service beyond the deadline?
 

Bertie the bus

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What has locking the toilet out of use on 153s got to do with anything? Next year it won't be a requirement for trains to not have PRM compliant toilets, just that PRM compliant toilets are required. Therefore, if a 153 was attached to a compliant unit the toilet on the 153 is of no relevance. Obviously, as stated above, there is more to PRM than toilets but sticking a cheap and nasty PIS on a train costs very little - some 142s have even got them.
 

Chester1

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The 153s are not PRM compliant even when coupled to a compliant unit. The toilet could be locked out of use, but I very much doubt it would be feasible to do the other required mods (e.g. PIS displays and door controls) by the end of the year.

Has the DfT given any indication it is willing to allow non-compliant units to remain in service beyond the deadline?

Nothing official only rumours e.g. partial derogations for LNER HSTs for EMR.

What has locking the toilet out of use on 153s got to do with anything? Next year it won't be a requirement for trains to not have PRM compliant toilets, just that PRM compliant toilets are required. Therefore, if a 153 was attached to a compliant unit the toilet on the 153 is of no relevance. Obviously, as stated above, there is more to PRM than toilets but sticking a cheap and nasty PIS on a train costs very little - some 142s have even got them.

Its not just the toilets that are the issue. PIS is cheap but some of the other modifications are not. The easiest solution would be no modifications, keep the toilet in use and partial derogation for use with compliant units only. If platform announcements stated the front / rear coach was not disability compliant then it would be a workable solution. If the 195s enter service on 1st July then Northern could catch up with its plan by end of December. The 769s are the bigger unknown. If they get both fleets into service by the end of the year then the 153s will be off to the scrap yard regardless of overcrowding. They are the easiest contingency option for Northern in the event of either fleet not entering service in sufficient numbers. A partial derogation for 153s with strict conditions will not get too much negative press but any pacer derogation would cause a huge backlash.
 

Dave91131

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Nothing official only rumours e.g. partial derogations for LNER HSTs for EMR.



Its not just the toilets that are the issue. PIS is cheap but some of the other modifications are not. The easiest solution would be no modifications, keep the toilet in use and partial derogation for use with compliant units only. If platform announcements stated the front / rear coach was not disability compliant then it would be a workable solution. If the 195s enter service on 1st July then Northern could catch up with its plan by end of December. The 769s are the bigger unknown. If they get both fleets into service by the end of the year then the 153s will be off to the scrap yard regardless of overcrowding. They are the easiest contingency option for Northern in the event of either fleet not entering service in sufficient numbers. A partial derogation for 153s with strict conditions will not get too much negative press but any pacer derogation would cause a huge backlash.

Completely agree with the above post.

I think, given a choice of something along the lines of

Either: 'Ladies and gentleman, your service today is formed of 3 carriages, the front and centre of which meet the government imposed requirements for passengers with disabilities'.

Or: 'Ladies and gentleman, your service today is formed of 2 carriages, both of which meet the government imposed requirements for passengers with disabilities however due to the train only being formed of 2 carriages it is severely overcrowded so not all of you will be able to board and anyone with a wheelchair will not be able to be access the dedicated wheelchair space due to it being occupied by standing passengers with nowhere else to stand'.

I think I know which option passengers would choose.
 

Killingworth

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Completely agree with the above post.

I think, given a choice of something along the lines of

Either: 'Ladies and gentleman, your service today is formed of 3 carriages, the front and centre of which meet the government imposed requirements for passengers with disabilities'.

Or: 'Ladies and gentleman, your service today is formed of 2 carriages, both of which meet the government imposed requirements for passengers with disabilities however due to the train only being formed of 2 carriages it is severely overcrowded so not all of you will be able to board and anyone with a wheelchair will not be able to be access the dedicated wheelchair space due to it being occupied by standing passengers with nowhere else to stand'.

I think I know which option passengers would choose.

Absolutely.

However we've got into a political situation where many users are expecting new trains. Today a fellow passenger assured me all these old trains would be gone by December. He was about to board a smart newly refurbished 150 - clearly not seen as new!
 

Chester1

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Absolutely.

However we've got into a political situation where many users are expecting new trains. Today a fellow passenger assured me all these old trains would be gone by December. He was about to board a smart newly refurbished 150 - clearly not seen as new!

Unless there was a total fleet renewal then some people won't be happy that their trains are not being replaced. Even with a total fleet replacement some people would complain about seats etc. The long rumoured replacement of 319s with WMR 323s would help those who care about quality not about having brand new because thats what the south east gets etc. Replacement of pacers at the end of the year now looks more secure and will be a huge step forward. Replacing 156s with TfW and EMT 158s would be another step forward and appealing to both Rosco and Toc.
 

DanielTheEMid

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Don’t think that is true whoever has told you that! 144s have been to Lincoln a few times in the last few weeks. They’re banned from running south of Chesterfield (to Nottingham) and as the Lincoln services interwork with Nottingham at Leeds they’re no longer booked to go to Lincoln (bar one early service, I believe?)
They are only allowed in the zone on sundays
 
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Hi,
Does anyone have a picture of a pacer working in multiple with a 170. Just need something to keep me laughing for a bit!

Sorry for being slightly off topic.

Hi,

In answer to your query, my Platform 5 Fleetbook states that 170s can only work in multiple with Classes 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 and 172 despite having the same BSI couplings at the outer ends. Maybe this is because the Class 170s are 100mph units?

Actually, Pacer & 170 combos can work Empty Coaching Stock but not passenger service. Pacer & 158, or 150/153 & 170 combos are the "furthest apart" for passenger service.

It's not the top speed (170s can work in multiple with 150/153/155/156 which are all 75mph) but some other incompatibility (not sure what) that prevents Pacer & 170 combos working passenger service.

You won't see it happen at Northern. The only multiple working that is ever diagrammed are 170+158. Special permission is needed for multiple working with other 15X and categorically not allowed for 14X.

There are no exceptions regardless of whether in passenger service or ECS.

They are only allowed in the zone on sundays
Again, that is incorrect. There are zero restrictions on 14X operating on any day of the week and at any time of day on the Lincoln route.
 

anamyd

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You won't see it happen at Northern. The only multiple working that is ever diagrammed are 170+158. Special permission is needed for multiple working with other 15X and categorically not allowed for 14X.

There are no exceptions regardless of whether in passenger service or ECS.

Huh?! Northern have operated passenger services using 142&150, 142&156, 150&156, 142&158, and 153&155 combos to name a few.

I definitely heard that Pacer&170 combos are ECS-only, and the "furthest apart" (in terms of class) passenger service combos I've known of are [150/153 & 170], and [142 & 158]...
 
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Huh?! Northern have operated passenger services using 142&150, 142&156, 150&156, 142&158, and 153&155 combos to name a few.

I definitely heard that Pacer&170 combos are ECS-only, and the "furthest apart" (in terms of class) passenger service combos I've known of are [150/153 & 170], and [142 & 158]...
I probably should've been clearer, there are special instructions pertaining to 170s. It may be technically possible for inter working with other BSI units, but Northern do not permit it. Any multiple working beyond 170+158 has to be specially authorised for 15X. Not allowed for 14X.

Any other 15X+14X combination, yeah, crack on!
 

anamyd

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I probably should've been clearer, there are special instructions pertaining to 170s. It may be technically possible for inter working with other BSI units, but Northern do not permit it. Any multiple working beyond 170+158 has to be specially authorised for 15X. Not allowed for 14X.

Any other 15X+14X combination, yeah, crack on!
Ah, gotcha!
 

Sprinter107

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West Midlands run 170 and 153 combos daily. Also 170 and 150 combos ran, and in Central Trains days 170 and 156, and 170 and 158 too.
 

Tractor37

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Having been on the 170 training course 5 months ago, coupling of either a 142 or 144 to a 170 is a definite no, will never happen, either in service or ECS. When first introduced you could couple up to a 158 without question any other 15x required permission from maintenance, this is now relaxed and any 15x can couple to a 170.
 
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