TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

hwl · 24 Jun 2019

samuelmorris said:
That's still going to be a fairly substantial lead time. Do they really think the Mk5As will take longer to introduce than having more 802s delivered, for which bodyshells have yet to be constructed? And if so, why are 2-3 units still being deployed? That doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, even if they do ultimately benefit from a slightly more standardised fleet.

With Hitachi having made good progress on the outstanding 800s 801s and 802s there shouldn't be much of a lead time at all. With the future surplus 185 seemingly not going to a new home in a hurry the ability to retain them as an alternative to MK5s adds up capacity wise (185s not going to RoI also makes more sense if this is the case.
First also don't need their East Coast open access 802 for another 18+ months hence the ability to swap those to TPE spec for quicker delivery makes sense.

First also have outstanding options for 802s they haven't used yet.

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Bletchleyite · 24 Jun 2019

TBH I wouldn't blame them for looking for a contractual excuse to get 802s instead. The benefits of a homogeneous fleet would be massive. Same to some extent for the WCML EMUs (not to mention a bit of extra capacity).

And the 80x has proven itself to be a good bit of kit on GWR and now LNER - the only significant criticism seems to be the seating, and that's the same as fitted to all TPE's new fleet, both CAF and Hitachi, so it is not relevant to the 80x vs Mk5 argument at all.

hwl · 24 Jun 2019

Bertie the bus said:
constant problems following introduction resulting in a completely unacceptable service is worse.

Especially given the service frequency on most of the track TPE operate on.

samuelmorris · 24 Jun 2019

hwl said:
With Hitachi having made good progress on the outstanding 800s 801s and 802s there shouldn't be much of a lead time at all. With the future surplus 185 seemingly not going to a new home in a hurry the ability to retain them as an alternative to MK5s adds up capacity wise (185s not going to RoI also makes more sense if this is the case.
First also don't need their East Coast open access 802 for another 18+ months hence the ability to swap those to TPE spec for quicker delivery makes sense.

First also have outstanding options for 802s they haven't used yet.

That's a fair point re: the other open access operator. I do wonder though what makes them think the units will continue to be unsuccessful in service. Several other reliable fleets now in service had problematic introductions.

68011 · 24 Jun 2019

158820 said:
The 2 posts above are contradictory unless they refer to different issues?

indeed they are, I suspect it's easier for TPE to just keep saying there are issues with the stock rather than it being down to the notice period.
There can't be too much wrong with the stock if TP04 has completed its FFR and expected to be handed over this week as posted by erniescooper above.
How can TP04 have completed its FFR if there are faults?

BeHereNow · 24 Jun 2019

What a surprise. Almost as if First don’t really want the mix of rolling stock as so unfairly dealt to them by the DfT.

hwl · 24 Jun 2019

samuelmorris said:
That's a fair point re: the other open access operator. I do wonder though what makes them think the units will continue to be unsuccessful in service. Several other reliable fleets now in service had problematic introductions.

Bombardier and Siemens recent issues have virtually all been software issues (mechanical aspects all good), Hitachi seem to be suffering from lack of enough maintenance capacity (Ditto Siemens 700s to a lesser extent).

CAF have been having loads of mechanical issues (195s, 331s, 397s, MK5 Scotrail and Mk5 TPE) before you even worry about software which is a very bad sign as this doesn't affect the other manufacturers at the moment. They know how long it takes to address software for other manufacturers but mechanical issues are another layer to sort first.

I also suspect the CAF stuff has been engineered to lowest cost below UK normal expectations (look back to the lack of isolation valves on the air system for testing last year e.g. suspension air bag isolation). If they have the same WSP / brake issues as the Sleeper stock (which appears so give the number of trashed wheel sets late last year on the TPE sets) then the entire fleet they won't last a week in a UK autumn.

68011 · 24 Jun 2019

This has been posted on another forum......
Another ‘collegue’ Email sent out today regarding the Nova fleets.

Nova 3.. Training paused and expected to restart in a couple of weeks once CAF have ironed out some software faults.

Still expecting to enter service ‘during the summer’

....so what's right? the TPE email to colleagues or the messroom rumour mill?

dilbertphil · 24 Jun 2019

///////__

tpjm · 24 Jun 2019

68011 said:
...so what's right? the TPE email to colleagues or the messroom rumour mill?

Email > Rumour Mill.

I think this might be a 2 + 2 = 5 scenario.

Some folks might be seeing the renewed focus on getting training underway for Nova 1 and 2, ahead of the Autumn introduction, and assumed this means that Nova 3 has been completely shelved.

68011 · 24 Jun 2019

tpjm said:
Email > Rumour Mill.

I think this might be a 2 + 2 = 5 scenario.

Some folks might be seeing the renewed focus on getting training underway for Nova 1 and 2, ahead of the Autumn introduction, and assumed this means that Nova 3 has been completely shelved.

thank you that’s exactly what I was thinking.

Given that July 29th was being mooted as the start date for 2 x Nova 3 sets being in traffic and there being a 6 week delay to the Driver Instructor training one would assume therefore we are now looking somewhere around September 9th (6 week delay) for the 2 sets to enter traffic assuming no more hold ups.

Erniescooper · 24 Jun 2019

hwl said:
Bombardier and Siemens recent issues have virtually all been software issues (mechanical aspects all good), Hitachi seem to be suffering from lack of enough maintenance capacity (Ditto Siemens 700s to a lesser extent).

CAF have been having loads of mechanical issues (195s, 331s, 397s, MK5 Scotrail and Mk5 TPE) before you even worry about software which is a very bad sign as this doesn't affect the other manufacturers at the moment. They know how long it takes to address software for other manufacturers but mechanical issues are another layer to sort first.
Roe
I also suspect the CAF stuff has been engineered to lowest cost below UK normal expectations (look back to the lack of isolation valves on the air system for testing last year e.g. suspension air bag isolation). If they have the same WSP / brake issues as the Sleeper stock (which appears so give the number of trashed wheel sets late last year on the TPE sets) then the entire fleet they won't last a week in a UK autumn.

The Caledonian sleeper does not issues with brakes or WSP, as some on that thread pointed out it was down human error but he was told he was a liar. The TCMS config was not accepted which caused the coaches to trip its batteries, I know I took the downloads. There were 2 lots of flats last years one due to a misswired speed probe and a fleet check was carried out and no further issues were found and there was some small flats on a trip up from Portbury on a wet rail due to the fact they are dead hauled and the WSP is not powered up because the train has not been commissioned and this will always be a risk when moving dead. I don’t know the issue with air suspension but last time I looked the isolation was next to the parking brake isolation on the brake panel. The brake system itself isn’t made by CAF but designed and supplied from brake handle to disc by Knorr Bremse to the spec supplied by TPE.

Ben Bow · 24 Jun 2019

Lots of conflicting info buzzing around today. As always, we will see what pans out in real life over the next few weeks....

EE Andy b1 · 24 Jun 2019

Time will tell!

It's probably best the majority of the travelling public haven't got a clue what's going on anyway and will only know the difference when they first travel on them.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jun 2019

Ben Bow said:
Lots of conflicting info buzzing around today. As always, we will see what pans out in real life over the next few weeks....

Indeed.

I have no inside information myself (don't work for a TOC, let alone TPE) but if I was TPE I would be looking through the contract to see if there was any kind of get-out on all the CAF kit that might allow me to order 80x instead. The benefit of going to CAF was early delivery, on which they have abjectly failed.

An interesting question would be that if this all goes a bit Fyra and CAF get landed with it back, what will they do with it? Scrap it and withdraw from the UK market, or fix it up and palm it off on another TOC on the cheap? ScotRail maybe, as the HSTs haven't been basking with glory either? Might be a useful opportunity to convert some for CS use as FW day coaches? (Assuming those don't end up returned too...)

sjpowermac · 24 Jun 2019

tpjm said:
Email > Rumour Mill.

I think this might be a 2 + 2 = 5 scenario.

Some folks might be seeing the renewed focus on getting training underway for Nova 1 and 2, ahead of the Autumn introduction, and assumed this means that Nova 3 has been completely shelved.

That’s great news

All the best to everyone working to get the Nova 3 in traffic, I’m sure it’s going to be a fantastic train

sjpowermac · 24 Jun 2019

Erniescooper said:
The Caledonian sleeper does not issues with brakes or WSP, as some on that thread pointed out it was down human error but he was told he was a liar. The TCMS config was not accepted which caused the coaches to trip its batteries, I know I took the downloads. There were 2 lots of flats last years one due to a misswired speed probe and a fleet check was carried out and no further issues were found and there was some small flats on a trip up from Portbury on a wet rail due to the fact they are dead hauled and the WSP is not powered up because the train has not been commissioned and this will always be a risk when moving dead. I don’t know the issue with air suspension but last time I looked the isolation was next to the parking brake isolation on the brake panel. The brake system itself isn’t made by CAF but designed and supplied from brake handle to disc by Knorr Bremse to the spec supplied by TPE.

Thank you, as always. Nice to hear actual information rather than ‘platform end’ guesses

samuelmorris · 24 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed.

I have no inside information myself (don't work for a TOC, let alone TPE) but if I was TPE I would be looking through the contract to see if there was any kind of get-out on all the CAF kit that might allow me to order 80x instead. The benefit of going to CAF was early delivery, on which they have abjectly failed.

An interesting question would be that if this all goes a bit Fyra and CAF get landed with it back, what will they do with it? Scrap it and withdraw from the UK market, or fix it up and palm it off on another TOC on the cheap? ScotRail maybe, as the HSTs haven't been basking with glory either? Might be a useful opportunity to convert some for CS use as FW day coaches? (Assuming those don't end up returned too...)

If that happened, I'd guess the latter. There is nothing to suggest Mk5As will be anything like the Fyra, they have a long way to go with that yet. I'm not sure anything delivered to the UK has ever been that bad.

sjpowermac · 24 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed.

I have no inside information myself (don't work for a TOC, let alone TPE) but if I was TPE I would be looking through the contract to see if there was any kind of get-out on all the CAF kit that might allow me to order 80x instead. The benefit of going to CAF was early delivery, on which they have abjectly failed.

An interesting question would be that if this all goes a bit Fyra and CAF get landed with it back, what will they do with it? Scrap it and withdraw from the UK market, or fix it up and palm it off on another TOC on the cheap? ScotRail maybe, as the HSTs haven't been basking with glory either? Might be a useful opportunity to convert some for CS use as FW day coaches? (Assuming those don't end up returned too...)

I think most of this falls into the category of ‘speculative ideas’...

68011 · 24 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
Thank you, as always. Nice to hear actual information rather than ‘platform end’ guesses

agreed, this forum is certainly the best out there when it comes to reliable info, the speculation & nonsense posted elsewhere is all rather tiresome.

61653 HTAFC · 25 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
interesting question would be that if this all goes a bit Fyra and CAF get landed with it back, what will they do with it? Scrap it and withdraw from the UK market, or fix it up and palm it off on another TOC on the cheap? ScotRail maybe, as the HSTs haven't been basking with glory either? Might be a useful opportunity to convert some for CS use as FW day coaches? (Assuming those don't end up returned too...)

New bogies and off to Ireland?

EE Andy b1 · 25 Jun 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
New bogies and off to Ireland?

New Zealand might find a use with new bogies!!

They still got some Ex Virgin Mk2s running about.

coppercapped · 25 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
TBH I wouldn't blame them for looking for a contractual excuse to get 802s instead. The benefits of a homogeneous fleet would be massive. Same to some extent for the WCML EMUs (not to mention a bit of extra capacity).

And the 80x has proven itself to be a good bit of kit on GWR and now LNER - the only significant criticism seems to be the seating, and that's the same as fitted to all TPE's new fleet, both CAF and Hitachi, so it is not relevant to the 80x vs Mk5 argument at all.

I would dispute your statement that the 80X has proved itself to be a good piece of kit on GWR.

After nearly two years in service there are still too may sets running as 'diesel only' - it varies from day to day. Rail magazine (No. 881 dated 19th June, page 31) reported that on 18th May a total of eighteen were restricted to diesel. As evinced by this article GWR is getting nervous that Agility Trains / Hitachi will not reach the 95% availability required for GWR's planned December 2019 timetable. I posted to this effect in the GWR Class 800 thread - so far none of the GWR insiders who post there have questioned its accuracy except for asking for more details of the 18 diesel only trains and the knock-on effects on short forms and cancellations.

At the moment the jury is still out on the Class 800 for reasons of reliability and ride quality as well as the issues of dirty windows, passenger information systems and external doors. At the moment Hitachi - which is basically a large start up company in the UK, with all the teething problems associated with rapid expansion - does not seem to have these problems in its grip. Of course none of this is helped by the DfT moving the goalposts in mid-game - the cancellation of the electrification to Swansea must have messed up Agility Trains / Hitachi's fleet and maintenance planning considerably.

So, no, the Class 800s on the Western are not, yet, a good piece of kit.

hwl · 25 Jun 2019

coppercapped said:
I would dispute your statement that the 80X has proved itself to be a good piece of kit on GWR.

After nearly two years in service there are still too may sets running as 'diesel only' - it varies from day to day. Rail magazine (No. 881 dated 19th June, page 31) reported that on 18th May a total of eighteen were restricted to diesel. As evinced by this article GWR is getting nervous that Agility Trains / Hitachi will not reach the 95% availability required for GWR's planned December 2019 timetable. I posted to this effect in the GWR Class 800 thread - so far none of the GWR insider who post there have questioned its accuracy except for asking for more details of the 18 diesel only trains and the knock-on effects on short forms and cancellations.

At the moment the jury is still out on the Class 800 for reasons of reliability and ride quality as well as the issues of dirty windows, passenger information systems and external doors. At the moment Hitachi - which is basically a large start up company in the UK, with all the teething problems associated with rapid expansion - does not seem to have these problems in its grip. Of course none of this is helped by the DfT moving the goalposts in mid-game - the cancellation of the electrification to Swansea must have messed up Agility Trains / Hitachi's fleet and maintenance planning considerably.

So, no, the Class 800s on the Western are not, yet, a good piece of kit.

Virtually all the manufacturers have got the maintenance staff headcount too low for the inclusive maintenance deals on newly supplied stock and are struggling to meet in service targets.

The delays to full TL timetable roll out have saved Siemens so far with the 700s.

This also suggest that the might be slightly lean on depot facilitates /equipment too.
Some of this may be resolved with naturally with bathtub curve but I suspect not all.

samuelmorris · 25 Jun 2019

coppercapped said:
I would dispute your statement that the 80X has proved itself to be a good piece of kit on GWR.

After nearly two years in service there are still too may sets running as 'diesel only' - it varies from day to day. Rail magazine (No. 881 dated 19th June, page 31) reported that on 18th May a total of eighteen were restricted to diesel. As evinced by this article GWR is getting nervous that Agility Trains / Hitachi will not reach the 95% availability required for GWR's planned December 2019 timetable. I posted to this effect in the GWR Class 800 thread - so far none of the GWR insiders who post there have questioned its accuracy except for asking for more details of the 18 diesel only trains and the knock-on effects on short forms and cancellations.

At the moment the jury is still out on the Class 800 for reasons of reliability and ride quality as well as the issues of dirty windows, passenger information systems and external doors. At the moment Hitachi - which is basically a large start up company in the UK, with all the teething problems associated with rapid expansion - does not seem to have these problems in its grip. Of course none of this is helped by the DfT moving the goalposts in mid-game - the cancellation of the electrification to Swansea must have messed up Agility Trains / Hitachi's fleet and maintenance planning considerably.

So, no, the Class 800s on the Western are not, yet, a good piece of kit.

I think there's hope that when not being maintained by Agility Trains the other 802 fleets might fare better but who knows, they could end up worse.

bastien · 25 Jun 2019

coppercapped said:
So, no, the Class 800s on the Western are not, yet, a good piece of kit.

But still better at *actually running passenger services* than the Mk5a.

Qwerty133 · 25 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed.

I have no inside information myself (don't work for a TOC, let alone TPE) but if I was TPE I would be looking through the contract to see if there was any kind of get-out on all the CAF kit that might allow me to order 80x instead. The benefit of going to CAF was early delivery, on which they have abjectly failed.

An interesting question would be that if this all goes a bit Fyra and CAF get landed with it back, what will they do with it? Scrap it and withdraw from the UK market, or fix it up and palm it off on another TOC on the cheap? ScotRail maybe, as the HSTs haven't been basking with glory either? Might be a useful opportunity to convert some for CS use as FW day coaches? (Assuming those don't end up returned too...)

I would be very surprised if the DfT would allow any further 80x orders to be placed until after any possible EMR order is placed as it would be politically unacceptable for those trains to be delayed even further which a separate 80x order may well lead to.

hwl · 25 Jun 2019

Qwerty133 said:
I would be very surprised if the DfT would allow any further 80x orders to be placed until after any possible EMR order is placed as it would be politically unacceptable for those trains to be delayed even further which a separate 80x order may well lead to.

First have unused options...

Qwerty133 · 25 Jun 2019

hwl said:
First have unused options...

And the DfT would have to authorise the dumping of the Mk5s in order for them to use them which they have incentives not to do...

hwl · 25 Jun 2019

Qwerty133 said:
And the DfT would have to authorise the dumping of the Mk5s in order for them to use them which they have incentives not to do...

The first EMR unit only needs to be in service for December 2022 which wouldn't be affected by a TPE add on order. DfT have left the door open for other non EMR 80x orders...

TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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