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Non-TOC staff doing ticket checks at station without ticket barriers.

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bubieyehyeh

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This morning at Littlehaven (LVN) there were two people in hi-vis standing in the path to the north bound platforms. As I went to pass them one asked to see my ticket. Since they didn't seem to have any branded uniform for southern or thameslink, I asked if I could see their ID, they showed me a ID badge for a company called "OnTrack". I did show them my ticket, but did wondered what would have happened if I had refused.

Does anyone know if they are rail staff, or have any rights to check tickets, and if they are likely to be trained in knowing if tickets are valid?
 
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Hi! As I read you were asked to show your ticket by a member of OnTrack Staff. They are indeed trained and I have seen jobs going around by their recruitment agency for roles like gateline assistant. If you failed to show your ticket, as they are staff at the station you would maybe be issued with a penalty fare. Here is a link to a few of the jobs they have. Some are rather weird. https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/ontrak-recruitment/p41900
 

JonathanH

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GTR have introduced a large number of On Trak personnel at Southern stations in recent weeks - they tend to wear Hi-Vis which says On Trak working with GTR. They are agency staff working on behalf of the train operator and presumably have been trained to the level GTR require by their supervisors.

There are two at Reigate each morning (which has gatelines). Their role appears to be to ensure that passengers pass through the gates one at a time instead of tailgating each other.

They have also been reported at Earlswood which doesn't have a gateline.

The use of agency staff saves GTR / Southern the cost of recruitment. They may also be a temporary measure to see whether it is worthwhile doing extra ticket checking before GTR decide to employ full time staff.

If GTR want agency staff to check tickets and the staff carry ID those staff have just as much right to check your ticket as a directly employed member of staff.

https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/ontrak-recruitment/p41900
 

Bromley boy

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This morning at Littlehaven (LVN) there were two people in hi-vis standing in the path to the north bound platforms. As I went to pass them one asked to see my ticket. Since they didn't seem to have any branded uniform for southern or thameslink, I asked if I could see their ID, they showed me a ID badge for a company called "OnTrack". I did show them my ticket, but did wondered what would have happened if I had refused.

Does anyone know if they are rail staff, or have any rights to check tickets, and if they are likely to be trained in knowing if tickets are valid?

As per a previous post “Ontrak” are a temp agency who supply stuff for Gateline, platform and dispatch positions, and seem particularly popular in GTR land*.

They are, to all intents and purposes, TOC representatives and are quite within their rights to ask to see tickets, on which they should have been trained, although they won’t be able to issue penalty fares, as this is done only by revenue inspectors.

*whether outsourcing these customer facing roles to temporary workers is a good thing from a customer service perspective is open to debate!
 

bubieyehyeh

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Thanks, it would make more sense to give them southern or thameslink ID in my view.

I hope they are trained in ticket acceptance since I'll be starting short with a different ticket later in the week.
Previous experience with London Overground temporary staff has found they had never heard of break of journey, which led to unnecessarily wasting of my time.
 
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They are employed during the DfT ticketless travel survey by GTR to encourage people to purchase tickets before boarding and send them back to the TVMs or Ticket Office if they try to enter the platform without a valid ticket. They are in place at lots of stations which have high ticketless travel rates. It's because GTR are measured and have a contractual obligation on the level of revenue at risk and ticketless travel during the management contract.
 

tsr

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This just proves that on train ticket checks (GTR) should never have been withdrawn.

They weren't.

All Southern revenue protection staff were remapped to OBS roles (alongside around 50% of the Conductor establishment at the time), and OBSs have always had ticket checking as part of their remit. The trouble is that OBSs were then diagrammed to specific trains and mostly working solo, so the issuing of Penalty Fares and MG11 reports was strongly discouraged - for reasons including conflict management, RPOs / RPIs would traditionally have worked in multiple, and would have been able to leave trains if they needed to deal with a tricky passenger issue outside a confined space.

Around the time of the OBS switchover, the morale amongst many (though, to be fair, not all) members of staff plummeted, which meant that a number didn't bother with ticket checks for one reason or another. It's very hard to make onboard staff do ticket checks - indeed, any attempt to force this through would probably also mean that someone would get assaulted by checking a train where it's really not a good idea.

In turn, this meant that any revenue checks actually happening onboard were reduced, or minimised in areas where staff were not diagrammed to work trains, and that if a solo member of staff did find someone without a ticket, it was a case of (best-case scenario) just getting them to pay for the regular fare and leaving it at that.

It was then realised that GTR were losing money and the very small remaining Fraud teams were struggling, so gradually more teams of dedicated revenue staff have been created via secondments / permanent offers to agency staff etc. There has also been a notable increase in OBSs being sent out in pairs to deal with revenue issues when not diagrammed to specific trains. I understand the resurgence of dedicated revenue staff has paid for itself quite happily, but the exact figures are not something which I'd be privy to.

Staff on the GN and TL side were originally rebranded as Passenger Hosts around the time of the OBS scheme, and were meant to be like an "OBS lite" (more focussed on service information and assisting passengers), but this never really took off, and they mostly now do traditional revenue protection activities.

As an aside, even with agency staff turning away obviously ticketless passengers, it is a total mystery how the DfT ticket checking staff do actually manage to get a fairly low percentage figure of people evading fares. I can think of a few Southern routes where there remains near-100% fare evasion off-peak, despite a lot of hard work by local teams. Yet the figures from the DfT don't reflect that at all, in any case.
 

AlterEgo

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Hi! As I read you were asked to show your ticket by a member of OnTrack Staff. They are indeed trained and I have seen jobs going around by their recruitment agency for roles like gateline assistant. If you failed to show your ticket, as they are staff at the station you would maybe be issued with a penalty fare. Here is a link to a few of the jobs they have. Some are rather weird. https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/ontrak-recruitment/p41900

(bold section) Hmm. Are these staff Authorised Collectors?
 

tsr

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(bold section) Hmm. Are these staff Authorised Collectors?

Not usually. I've come across some on stations. Most of them seem to just ask to see if the person actually has a ticket, and might turn them back if not. A few of them literally don't even seem to know why they're there.

Since the point seems to be that they are mostly turning people back if they don't have tickets, it would be most unlikely that they would also said people Penalty Fares, especially as they haven't travelled anywhere yet. (Most Southern stations are not Compulsory Ticket Areas.)
 

Hadders

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This just proves that on train ticket checks (GTR) should never have been withdrawn.

Trains on Thameslink and Great Northern routes have been Driver Only Operated since British Rail days. In all honesty there's no way tickets could be checked on some of these trains given their length and loadings.
 

bramling

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Trains on Thameslink and Great Northern routes have been Driver Only Operated since British Rail days. In all honesty there's no way tickets could be checked on some of these trains given their length and loadings.

There’s zero revenue protection activity on GN after about 2100. In the last three decades I can only recall once ever being checked in the evening, and that was a police joint operation associated with the Hitchin rhythms of the world “festival”.

I suppose with the many travelling on the back end of return tickets combined with extra hassle it’s probably north worth the bother.

Presumably some stations are nowadays manned til close of traffic, but certainly some such stations still have the gates open after a certain time.
 

hwl

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Trains on Thameslink and Great Northern routes have been Driver Only Operated since British Rail days. In all honesty there's no way tickets could be checked on some of these trains given their length and loadings.
DOO - And southern metro too
 

Sprinter153

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Interesting that a train dispatcher is earning about 15% less than a ticketless travel surveyor <(

The actual surveyors are paid minimum wage on a zero hours basis and they are employed by Steer Davis Gleave and Tracsis on behalf of DfT, whereas the roles they are advertising are for staff to check tickets and boost the scores around the survey period.
 

notadriver

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So how does one make a complaint about such staff if there’s a problem ?
 

PHILIPE

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TFWs checkers usually turn up at a station as a crew 5 strong and resulting in an intimidating atmosphere, and as TFW insist on the policy of buy before you join the train by using the facilities available, i.e. TVMs. Booking Office, there is a strong emphasis on this. They have been known to stand at the entrance to a small station demanding to see tickets even though passengers might have to pass them to access a TVM, provoking complaints which are like water off a ducks back so far as the TOC is concerned who say they receive full training. How do the TOC know this, as no doubt they go through everything with the private company but they don't know if or how such instructions are conveyed to the people on the ground. They are known as the "Green Gestapo" due to the colour of their uniform and it is suggested that manners should be part of their training.

I have personally not encountered them myself but it is something I can quite believe from what I have picked up.
 
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Roast Veg

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Both XC and EMT now supply enforcement agents at Leicester station gateline irregularly - they leave the gates open and then demand to see tickets from all passengers as they pass through - but since I have an ITSO ticket they can't even check it properly without closing the gates!
 

tsr

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There’s zero revenue protection activity on GN after about 2100. In the last three decades I can only recall once ever being checked in the evening, and that was a police joint operation associated with the Hitchin rhythms of the world “festival”.

I suppose with the many travelling on the back end of return tickets combined with extra hassle it’s probably north worth the bother.

Presumably some stations are nowadays manned til close of traffic, but certainly some such stations still have the gates open after a certain time.

Most GN stations of any significant size, and virtually all Thameslink stations north of the Thames, are staffed for every train. This is something which is quite critical to the operation, as they are very much the eyes and ears of the controllers.

In theory, the same first-to-last staffing principle applies to most of the Southern Metro network aside from the quieter branches, although in practice it’s anyone’s guess whether you’ll see a staff presence. At least on the GN side it appears there are more permanent staff and there’s generally better visibility of staff - including double-staffing on many gatelines during the day, which would be pure fantasy in Southern land.

So - on GN you have lots of station staff and no trains, on Southern you have few station staff and lots of trains, and TL is somewhere in the middle.

DOO - And southern metro too

Southern is a bit of an odd network in this regard, as there are certain outer Metro routes which still have quite a heavy onboard staff presence, and yet the ones in inner South London need it equally badly but don’t usually get any form of permanent onboard crewing. It’s all very uneven. In the old revenue protection era, all routes were checked quite regularly, but this then ended up being reduced in favour of prioritising certain things like First Class enforcement on the mainlines. Now, certain areas are targeted due to spikes in local fare evasion...
 

PeterC

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Thanks, it would make more sense to give them southern or thameslink ID in my view.
SNIP.
As an occasional traveller I would assume that somebody displaying a random ID badge that showed no connection with the TOC to be a conman planning to issue spurious PFNs.
 

sbt

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They have been known to stand at the entrance to a small station demanding to see tickets even though passengers might have to pass them to access a TVM ...

I have encountered this on SWR.

I'm afraid that I allowed my bad mood (horrible meeting awaiting me in the office) to get the better of me and I snapped at the lady concerned as she tried to stop me entering the station to get to the Ticket machine. (Sorry if that was you - I'm normally civil with people doing a thankless task).

I didn't snap at the other checker later, once I had got my ticket, because he took one look at my face and halted the process of checking the ticket he had just watched me buy to allow me enough time to actually change platform and catch the train that approaching, rather than force me to wait half an hour for the next.

The odd thing was that they weren't checking the entrance to the other platform - if I wanted to fare dodge I could have just walked in that way.

I will add that the reason it was a close run thing catching my intended train was the length of the queue at the Ticket Machine, much longer than usual. I suspect there were a few people who were buying tickets they didn't usually - I'm not faulting the reason for the checks, just the execution.

PS: Queue length also added to because only one of two machines were working, IIRC.
 

sbt

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Fratton was 'fun' the first day they were there. They closed one end of one of the bridges at a point where it wasn't visible from the platform. So it was:

Get ticket checked going on to Old Bridge
Walk up and across Old Bridge
Find access to other platform blocked by steel roller-shutter
Walk back across Old Bridge
Wait to get ticket checked again as I was moving against the flow of passengers
Walk down platform to New Bridge (which does not lead to or from any station exit they weren't checking - so why the checking?)
Get ticket checked for third time
Walk up and across New Bridge
Get ticket checked for fourth time coming off New Bridge

Meanwhile they didn't appear to be checking people using the lifts on and off of the New Bridge. <facepalm>

I know people have jobs to do, but this seemed to maximise inconvience to passengers (OK, maybe just to people like me who were changing trains) whilst minimising efficiency. They got better the next few times.

And, no I didn't spot at the time that I could have continued along the Old Bridge, round the Station Building and in at the Main Entrance, thus saving myself the backtrack. I have never, in over a decade, used that end of the bridge so it simply didn't occur to me.
 

molecrochip

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Fratton was 'fun' the first day they were there. They closed one end of one of the bridges at a point where it wasn't visible from the platform. So it was:

Get ticket checked going on to Old Bridge
Walk up and across Old Bridge
Find access to other platform blocked by steel roller-shutter
Walk back across Old Bridge
Wait to get ticket checked again as I was moving against the flow of passengers
Walk down platform to New Bridge (which does not lead to or from any station exit they weren't checking - so why the checking?)
Get ticket checked for third time
Walk up and across New Bridge
Get ticket checked for fourth time coming off New Bridge

Meanwhile they didn't appear to be checking people using the lifts on and off of the New Bridge. <facepalm>

I know people have jobs to do, but this seemed to maximise inconvience to passengers (OK, maybe just to people like me who were changing trains) whilst minimising efficiency. They got better the next few times.

And, no I didn't spot at the time that I could have continued along the Old Bridge, round the Station Building and in at the Main Entrance, thus saving myself the backtrack. I have never, in over a decade, used that end of the bridge so it simply didn't occur to me.
Yes, ticket checking at Fratton has often been chaos when it is randomly implemented. At present, they appear to have no staff to man the gateline so the brand new ticket gates are open. The 'new' bridge stairwells are currently closed as the stairs were in a dangerous state and potential trip hazard - the stair tread is now being replaced.

It still has not occurred to SWR that remote ticket gates should be installed on the exits to the old bridge to ensure compliance rather than insist on inconveniencing passengers.
 

Skimble19

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There’s zero revenue protection activity on GN after about 2100. In the last three decades I can only recall once ever being checked in the evening, and that was a police joint operation associated with the Hitchin rhythms of the world “festival”.

I suppose with the many travelling on the back end of return tickets combined with extra hassle it’s probably north worth the bother.

Presumably some stations are nowadays manned til close of traffic, but certainly some such stations still have the gates open after a certain time.
As of last week a large number of gatelines across GN are now manned until 2300. There's a few exceptions that still open earlier but it should help a bit.
 

scrapy

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As an occasional traveller I would assume that somebody displaying a random ID badge that showed no connection with the TOC to be a conman planning to issue spurious PFNs.
Yes I actually encountered somebody in the early days of Metrolink in Manchester City Centre saying he was a plain clothes ticket inspector and trying to get 20 pounds on the spot fines off anyone who didn't have a ticket. He had a 'homemade' ID badge and would only take cash.

I checked with Metrolink who at the time didn't have any plain clothes inspectors.
 

6Gman

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They are employed during the DfT ticketless travel survey by GTR to encourage people to purchase tickets before boarding and send them back to the TVMs or Ticket Office if they try to enter the platform without a valid ticket. They are in place at lots of stations which have high ticketless travel rates. It's because GTR are measured and have a contractual obligation on the level of revenue at risk and ticketless travel during the management contract.

Hang on a minute.

If the TOC are taking on extra staff during the DfT survey period doesn't that then distort the results of said survey?

Which makes it all a bit pointless.
 

6Gman

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As an occasional traveller I would assume that somebody displaying a random ID badge that showed no connection with the TOC to be a conman planning to issue spurious PFNs.

I've had this at Wilmslow un der the old Northern regime where a large random bloke stood in front of me and asked for my ticket.

Since I wasn't in a hurry I went through the whole "can you show me your i.d. please?" process. Which he - rather grudgingly - did.

Why not just give them a prominent, visible badge?
 
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