Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though looking at how close to the main road the tram runs, one could certainly argue that there is no point in it going past Hollinwood.
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TfGM Bus franchising
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Though looking at how close to the main road the tram runs, one could certainly argue that there is no point in it going past Hollinwood.
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The bus service from Winlaton serves more than just Newcastle,It serves the business & industrial parks around the Chain Bridge & Scotswood Road area & the College at the end of Scotswood Road,so it is possible a number of journeys from the Blaydon/Winlaton area are not all just for Newcastle plus,as like with Manchester's problem - Blaydon only gets an hourly train (with a few extra at peak time),without finding more trains/paths/drivers not sure how popular it would be replacing a 15min bus service.
This is the only problem the UK has,our train service is many years behind compared to other countries (but thats a conversation for a different thread),so without spending many years upgrading it,introducing models used in other places simply wont work.
Back to Manchester,Between Oldham & Manchester it would make more sense to keep the 180/4 rather than 83,so the Hollins Road area keep the most direct bus to Manchester plus the tram stops are nearer to the 83 service.
I Do think there are some areas they could look at merging some routes together if it was all 1 operator (scrap route 41 & extend some 143s to Sale,possibly merge the 163 & 18/9 services around Langley once the Middleton tram opens) plus once the Trafford Centre Tram opens cut the Trafford > Manchester section of the 100,Cadishead would still have a direct bus to Eccles/Manchester with 67.
Oddly this kind of thing has been done in Oxford and the West Midlands by the local authority using it's existing powers over the local bus companies.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What on earth has Switzerland and its climate to do with the area of what I usually describe as "The TfGM Empire" in this thread? I cannot imagine Heidi as a young girl enjoying life in the Glodwick area.
If you are prepared to search YouTube videos, there is an old one of "The Oldham Tinkers" singing "Oldham's Burning Sands" that mentions the orange groves of Werneth.
Andrew Holland
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Actually further to that, I just hope that any tendering scheme is inspired by how the system works now and not as it was when it began in 1986, back then, I have not-so-fond memories as a kid of seeing, for example, route 51 (a longish standard frequency route serving some major towns in South East London and on the Kent border) go from having brand new buses in 1986, i.e. these...
to these knackered, unreliable, noisy and uncomfortable sweat box early 1970s things the following year:
The 51 would have quite a variety of types on it over the next few years (some good, some awful) thanks to tendering...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Actually, in terms of transport need CH has a fair bit in common with the North, being multicentric and more than a little bit hilly as well as having high tourist demand (though probably not for Oldham!
). I certainly think SBB's operating concepts would map well onto it (lowish frequencies, long trains, planned connections), and no doubt the bus concepts would too.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The 51 would have quite a variety of types on it over the next few years (some good, some awful) thanks to tendering...
I can well imagine the famed letter writer to the Daily Telegraph..."Offended of Orpington"...penning a strong letter about the green bus.
You were the one complaining about Oldham's weather, implying that changing buses in such cold is undesirable. So I pointed out that people are prepared to change vehicles in a somewhat colder place.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Surely all one requires in the North is one's "big coat"?
Andrew Holland
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I remember the local newspapers covering this well. At the time the MP for Woolwich (I think) was John Austin Walker (known as JAWS to the media) and because the buses were ex-Strathclyde Atlanteans the headline went "51 bus route Scotched, JAWS sees red". It was a controversial tender at the time, it being part of the very first tranche of tenders in the area. Just 3 years or so later we had Bexleybus foisted upon us too and things went from bad to worse...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TfGM will presumably have to be quite careful of the quality spec lest we end up with disreputable small operators (why's it always the small ones?) damaging the quality of the service.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If you really and truly believe that the majority of bus-using people of Oldham have the same mindset about changing buses as those in Switzerland, then you are very much mistaken. If you look at a goodly percentage of the population of Oldham these days, it is not the winter climes of Switzerland to which they have an affinity, but more of the rather warmer climates of the areas that make up Pakistan.
Still, to look for an area of steep inclined transport that both Oldham and Switzerland share, that rail transport used, the former railway line from Middleton Junction, through Chadderton, to Oldham Werneth was a very steep incline and Switzerland also has a steep inclined line of the Gelmar funicular railway. I hope my example does not take matters even further off-topic, but interesting postings could well now appear concerning the Great Orme Tramway, as that too has a need to make a change en route.
There is little point in sending buses to feed into trams as there is little "peak" capacity on Metrolink available to carry more passengers.
Whilst there are some limited plans for more trams to increase peak capacity, (15 I think? after taking the ten for the new Trafford Centre Line and two for the Wythenshawe loop) the whole system is constrained to a double M5000 length on platforms and track space at points etc.
so the only capacity increase can be more frequent services.
Don't forget the stand by response for Metrolink in times of disruption is get the nominated commercial bus!
eg the Altrincham line use your tickets on the Arriva single decker 263 bus - which is only every 15mins M-S daytime and every 30mins at Evenings and Sundays - (or 245 which is every 2 hours ESu!) replacing a single / double tram every 12 mins - or when Monday to Saturday enhanced Bury direct service running - two trams every 12 mins!) and you have to walk a distance from the tram stop to the nearest bus stop
Whilst there are some limited plans for more trams to increase peak capacity, (15 I think? after taking the ten for the new Trafford Centre Line and two for the Wythenshawe loop) the whole system is constrained to a double M5000 length on platforms and track space at points etc.
so the only capacity increase can be more frequent services.
Don't forget the stand by response for Metrolink in times of disruption is get the nominated commercial bus!
eg the Altrincham line use your tickets on the Arriva single decker 263 bus - which is only every 15mins M-S daytime and every 30mins at Evenings and Sundays - (or 245 which is every 2 hours ESu!) replacing a single / double tram every 12 mins - or when Monday to Saturday enhanced Bury direct service running - two trams every 12 mins!) and you have to walk a distance from the tram stop to the nearest bus stop
I would speculate that the small operators that cause the trouble often lack the money to do the job properly and have a lot of power in the hands of a few people, who aren't influenced much by lawyers or unions or the threat of the press being much interested in their small business.
I can see this causing trouble one way or another. If you set the standards too low you will get old and unreliable buses, if not outright cowboys. There aren't the funds to mandate really high standards for vehicles (emissions will have to be dealt with somehow though...). A few small operators already exist within Greater Manchester. They're doomed if the tenders don't match up with their current fleet.
tbtc
Veteran Member
This is the point that the "blue sky thinkers" on this thread seem to forget.
Sure, in an ideal world we'd make more use of trains and trams to get into the city centre, we'd have connections, we'd have interchanges, we'd all live like in those Artists Impressions, everything would be peachy. Great. But there's no realistic chance of Metrolink being able to cope with the increased volumes if we instigated a system where
(a) bus fares rose to be equivalent to tram fares (since it's apparently bad for buses to offer cheaper tickets than trams, despite the economics of running a bus being a lot cheaper)
(b) long established bus routes were chopped to force people onto trams (which is going to make a return journey from anywhere on the fringes of Greater Manchester pretty unattractive because which tram do you need to take from Piccadilly Gardens to connect to your hourly bus service at somewhere like Holinwood?)
...how is Metrolink going to cope with all of the current bus passengers from Oldham/ Stretford/ Didsbury/ Ashton etc? How are the local trains going to cope? Maybe, if you had a decade to plan for all of the increased capacity required it'd be a great idea, but we don't have such luxuries.
Whilst I'm all for idealism, maybe some people on this thread are unaware of Stagecoach's attempts to introduce "tram feeder" services linking Killamarsh/ Sothall/ Stannington etc with their nearest tram terminus in Sheffield. It sounded a great idea on paper - a ten minute bus service to connect with a ten minute tram service, through fares at no more than a "day"/"weekly" tram ticket (i.e. broadly comparable with a bus-only ticket). The council even built a new section of road at Malin Bridge to permit the minibuses to serve the bus stop next to the tram terminus. Trouble is, people didn't want to change. So the "feeder" services were scrapped and now Killamarsh has a direct bus into Sheffield along the Parkway instead.
Also, I do enjoy the idea that arch-capitalist Brian Souter is willingly spending more money than he needs to on extra buses and drivers so he can run too many buses along corridors like Oxford Road, when he'd have more money if he make huge cutbacks (big enough cutbacks to permit subsidising several marginal services elsewhere in Manchester). What a guy...
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Nailed it
Josie
Member
They do - bus/tram, train/tram and bus/train/tram tickets are all available.
TfGM, and as far as I'm aware it's required to be self-funding without any subsidy.
ENCTS passes issued by TfGM are valid for free travel between 0930 and midnight, and for concessionary fares in the morning peak. ENCTS 'plus' passes from TfGM are valid for free travel at any time. ENCTS passes from outside Greater Manchester aren't valid, and there's no concession.
WatcherZero
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If Bus is so much more economic why are they making losses while carrying more passengers than the tram is which is making tens of millions in profits on a purely commercial operation with no subsidy beyond the same national concessionary pass payments.
The capacity is certainly growing within the region, in 1992 the trams carried 2.45% of the passengers buses did (8.1m to 330m), in 2017/18 they carried 20.3% an 8.2 fold increase. And the trams haven't been abstracting from rail, in 1992 rail carried 3.93% of the passengers buses did (13m to 330m) in 2018 they carried 43.8% an 11.1 fold increase.
The reason is the total collapse of commercial bus services, in 1992 they carried 330m in the county, by 2018 they only carried 180m.
The buses have lost 32m more journeys than rail and trams combined have increased by presumably to walking, cycling and cars.
We keep hearing that Metrolink is totally full, but the TfGM committee papers keep on presenting significant patronage growth statistics year after year, which wouldn't be possible if Metrolink was full years ago. There is certainly a lot of capacity outside peak periods, where much of the car use happens.
Much of the potential for growth is in bus to bus interchange, where fast rail is currently not a factor. In Zurich they voted against a metro system and the vast majority of their network is on slow, stopping, trams and trolleybuses.
But what if someone in Killamarsh wants to go somewhere that isn't on the bus route to Sheffield city centre? They would have to change.
Again, we continue to talk about routes where direct services currently exist, which is a small percentage of the trips that people actually make.
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Yes, but it costs more to use different modes than to stay on the same mode. There is no peak bus and train day ticket. There are no combined tickets for single trips.
The train will be the major problem there - there isn't a peak time train+tram day ticket either. Most likely the DfT don't want a TfGM ticket undercutting peak fares. Similarly with the bus+tram ticket - it's set above the Metrolink all zones fare, which will be higher than the cost of buying separate tickets for shorter journeys.
njlawley
Member
Surely, that cannot be comparable given in 1992, Metrolink only ran on one cross-city line, whereas now there are a plethora or lines across the conurbation. And there would be some natural extraction where the tram runs along the bus route, and takes half the time because of fewer stops and priority systems that cause buses to keep stopping - see the Ashton line as an example of that. Changing travel patterns will also affect numbers, as well as the constant roadworks that would put people off (especially for leisure use).
My concern with the whole franchising system would be that Burnham creates mass expansion of the bus network by increasing frequencies, but ends up with a massive defecit - just like TfL has done, but one in which the taxpayer has to foot the bill for because the government won't bail him out.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That might be so now, but in this "new world" TfGM's bus control centre could presumably reallocate vehicles to Metrolink replacement. Again that's how Germany does it.
Lynford1976
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Those with Twitter may find this interesting...
https://twitter.com/MattK1979/status/1143621376579911681?s=19
https://twitter.com/MattK1979/status/1143621376579911681?s=19
Cesarcollie
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Hmmm...not quite the same costing basis! Buses are bearing their full cost of depots, vehicles, and the depreciation/finance thereon. The tram profitability (is it really making tens of millions?) will only be only its direct operating costs. The infrastructure, depot and trams will all have been funded by central or local government (well, actually us as taxpayers!!). It’s also worth remembering the tram only runs on the busiest corridors. If buses do that, they are criticised as maximising profits for their fat cat capitalist owners
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Interesting yes, but he's clearly using it to pursue an argument. The higher weekly ticket will probably be offset by, I suspect, better value single fares, and a wider network.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't criticise the bus companies for putting their buses where they will make the most profit - in this market I would too. That's why we need to change the market so that is no longer the most profitable option.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That is what was said (see below). That the network can be approaching capacity in a number of areas at peak, and that there is capacity in off peak, is what we'd expect.
I seem to recall that some said that public transport works best at moving people from A to B. There is a reason why the UK tram systems head directly into city centres.
Still, we seem to be missing the fundamental point. Where is the money coming from? As we've seen on many corridors where the Metrolink has been introduced, it has taken trade off the buses and naturally, there have been moves to reduce that obvious duplication by removing parallel bus services. So if there's only limited scope to reduce bus services and obtain a saving, or to try some redistribution of margin by reducing bus company profits, it won't get anywhere near to the sums required.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Yes, TfGM ENCTS passes are equally valid on bus, tram and train within the TfGM area. Only disabled passes qualify for concessionary fares in the morning peak, but both disabled and pensioner passes give free travel between 0930 and midnight and all day at weekends.
As a pensioner pass holder, I often change between modes when making orbital journeys within the TfGM area. Even with the current uncoordinated timetables, online apps such as Google Maps make planning such journeys reasonably straightforward. A combination of tram/train and bus can be quicker than either a direct bus (when available) or travelling into the city centre and out again by tram/train.
If I did not have the pass, I would be disinclined to consider such multi-mode journeys because of the higher cost. Even off peak, System One travelcards are generally more expensive than the single mode fare.
WatcherZero
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Its been 50% direct grant and 50% borrowing with debt serviced by the operating profits of the tram network. Its no different though to buses where hundreds have been funded through government grant paying the difference in price between diesel and low emission/alternate fuel models (250 low emission, 101 hybrid and a dozen pure electric in GM funded through various government grants) (usually 25% for low emission rising upto 50% for pure electric/hybrid of the bus price is subsidised) as well as funding all the on street infrastructure buses use, the bus priority measures, quality bus partnership schemes, guided bus routes, etc....
Yes Metrolink made a £9.33m profit in 2017/18 and £11.29m in 2018/19 on revenues of £74.8m in 17/18 and £82.1m in 18/19.
For comparison Stagecoach Manchester in 2018 carried 106m passengers (about 60% of all bus passengers in the region) it had revenues of £119.6m and made a pre-tax profit of £17.6m (so Net profit will be lower), it invested £4.4m itself in buses and received grants of £6.9m for buying buses this year.
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