Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham line reopening proposal

BRX · 25 Jun 2019

https://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/new...unct-horsham-to-guildford-rail-line-1-8974381

Backing is being sought from local MPs to a new campaign aimed at reopening the former Horsham to Guildford railway line which has been shut since the 1960s.

The English Regional Transport Association - which also wants to reopen the Horsham to Shoreham line - staged a meeting about the proposals in Horsham on Saturday.

Both rail lines have been closed for more than 50 years but much of the original track beds survive.

A spokesman for the association said: “We would like to see a rebuilt railway from Guildford-Horsham as a Phase 1 with new stations at Cranleigh and an A24 Parkway Station to jointly serve surrounding growing populations and expanded development.

“The link would serve local people and places as well as being part of the national rail network. It offers some relief to congested roads, quicker transit timings and relief for the Brighton Main Line.

“Phase 2 would be Horsham-Shoreham.” The group also wants to include cycleways and footpaths.

I guess the reality is probably that this will never happen, but it's good to see some attempt being made.

Anyone who travels between Guildford and Brighton knows how useful this "missing link" would be, if it still existed.

I've cycled the 'downslink' route between Guildford and Shoreham several times - it uses the old trackbed most of the way - and it's so frustrating to see that while there are extensive stretched of trackbed that could be brought back into use, there are a few places where housing (and a road bypass) have been built on it.

If only the politicians of the 60s had had the foresight to make a planning rule that old trackbeds could never be built upon - the cost in unusable land would have been minimal but the benefits so great, now that there is a good argument to re-open various stretches of line. Ironically it's those ill conceived housing developments that got built on the trackbed that now remove the opportunity to provide current day housing developments with proper public transport access.

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Railwaysceptic · 25 Jun 2019

I admit I'm astonished. I doubt this will get off the ground if parts of the track bed have been built on, so I'll believe it when I see it. Obviously, re-creating a railway line from Brighton via Shoreham to Guildford would strengthen the case for the mooted southern railway route to Heathrow.

Tim M · 25 Jun 2019

The Cranleigh branch was single track with passing loops, that would limit headway’s, as would flat junctions at either end. The tunnel at Barnard’s had a restricted bore that would need enlarging for present day trains. Note there was a proposal to reopen the line as a heritage railway not long after it closed, that obviously came to nothing.

Bevan Price · 25 Jun 2019

Housing can be removed if Government decided to back reopening of the line. Housing did not stop the Croydon Tramway using old railway alignments.

The Ham · 25 Jun 2019

Railwaysceptic said:
I admit I'm astonished. I doubt this will get off the ground if parts of the track bed have been built on, so I'll believe it when I see it. Obviously, re-creating a railway line from Brighton via Shoreham to Guildford would strengthen the case for the mooted southern railway route to Heathrow.

The Southern Approach to Heathrow probably has quite a strong case already, although I do agree that it would be the most likely service for the Horsham line to connect to. Although there's still the potential problem of capacity South of Guildford to allow such a service to run.

LeeLivery · 26 Jun 2019

This would be good to see, I've long thought the Cranleigh section would be a good re-opening. An hourly Heathrow to Brighton service and extending the Aldershot - Guildford to Horsham (with a couple direct peak services from Waterloo too) would be great.

As for the A24 Parkway, that looks like they're proposing to replace Christ's Hospital, no?

Considering the success of the Waverley line, and the high usage of rail services in the Southern Region, I would've thought having stations at Bramley and Rudgwick shouldn't be totally dismissed.

For phase two, Southwater, Partridge Green, Henfield and Steyning could all sustain a station.

OliverS · 26 Jun 2019

I can see the argument for phase 1. The links to Guildford from Horsham aren't great as you have to change at either Redhill/Gatwick or Dorking. A direct line would be good. Cranleigh could do with a station if you can sort out the approach to Guildford. If you want to get expensive, combine the Cranleigh and North Downs lines into a single grade separated junction around Shalford.

Phase 2 has less justification. If you want a Brighton facing link from the Arun Valley line then build the Arundel Chord. And there isn't room on the coastway for traffic that produces so the Shoreham link might not get the paths on the coastway either. Note that Brighton doesn't have the platforms as well...

aleggatta · 26 Jun 2019

I think that, if phase 2 were to be built, it would be taken advantage of. With regards to platforms at Brighton, if someone wanted to do something about it, they could. I think you could see 2 short platforms situated where the wall sidings are, access to the new platforms would be interesting but not impossible. I think the more interesting part of phase two would be the probable alterations to shoreham viaduct to facilitate a junction, as the old junction position is having the route just outside of it built on with a large multi story building at the moment...

Surreyman · 26 Jun 2019

Will never happen.
There are closed lines that have a realistic case for re-opening, this isn't one of them.

Antman · 26 Jun 2019

The new Dunsfold and other developments as well as all the Horsham newbuild houses would give it a lot of patronage. Plus some s106 funds. The A281 is overrun already through Bramley. And will only get much, much worse. But it won't get built. Because developers will get away with their profits and promises of half hourly bus timetables. Because so, so much cheaper. And because the local authorities are too small minded to make the developers stump up. They want more council tax, and cushy consultancies after retiring from public service early on a huge pension, not a joined up infrastructure that actually works.

the costs of CPOing the land would be absolutely horrendous. So, much as it's needed. Not a runner.

MarkyT · 26 Jun 2019

Bevan Price said:
Housing can be removed if Government decided to back reopening of the line. Housing did not stop the Croydon Tramway using old railway alignments.

Within reason, but sharp curvature possible with trams enabled the property impact of Tramlink to be quite minimal. There is no need to follow a previous alignment slavishly everywhere however. Do so where it's clear and cost effective by all means, but don't expect construction costs to fall significantly just because there was once a railway there. Removing even small numbers of nice executive rural Surrey houses is going to be very expensive and will likely raise significant local opposition from people who are probably fairly influential.

DerekC · 26 Jun 2019

A quick Google Earth suggests that in fact Phase 1 wouldn't be too bad at all in terms of demolition - maybe half a dozen houses. A new grade separated junction at Shalford would be kind of interesting, though. You probably have to divert the down Portsmouth line to the east a bit and raise it to allow a new combined North Downs/Cranleigh up line to pass under, which puts it into a space next to the River Wey which is likely to be sensitive - so not easy!

MarkyT · 26 Jun 2019

DerekC said:
A new grade separated junction at Shalford would be kind of interesting, though. You probably have to divert the down Portsmouth line to the east a bit and raise it to allow a new combined North Downs/Cranleigh up line to pass under, which puts it into a space next to the River Wey which is likely to be sensitive - so not easy!

Good idea. Something like:

DerekC · 26 Jun 2019

MarkyT said:
Good idea. Something like:

Brilliant - that's exactly what I meant and it looks very doable - haven't checked the gradient profile, though. I just took a look on the Magic Map and the northern end of the new alignment goes slap through an SSSI, so it just got more difficult!!

Surreytraveller · 26 Jun 2019

OliverS said:
Phase 2 has less justification. If you want a Brighton facing link from the Arun Valley line then build the Arundel Chord. And there isn't room on the coastway for traffic that produces so the Shoreham link might not get the paths on the coastway either. Note that Brighton doesn't have the platforms as well...

There is room - there's the odd Great Western now that is squeezed in, so you could squeeze an hourly service in. Or extend the West Worthing shuttles. Maybe divert one Littlehampton an hour.

30907 · 26 Jun 2019

Surreytraveller said:
There is room - there's the odd Great Western now that is squeezed in, so you could squeeze an hourly service in. Or extend the West Worthing shuttles. Maybe divert one Littlehampton an hour.

The present offpeak service at Shoreham is 6tph; Brighton P1/2 also have 6tph.
the 1950s offpeak electric service was 7tph, plus the hourly Steyning push and pull, plus the odd steam "fast" - so there's certainly capacity.

yorksrob · 26 Jun 2019

I'd love to see it. It should certainly be done - especially Shoreham - Horsham.

MotorcycleAlan · 26 Jun 2019

Surreyman said:
Will never happen.
There are closed lines that have a realistic case for re-opening, this isn't one of them.

Thank goodness someone is being realistic. It is just an excuse to pay consultants loads of money to produce report after report, and there is no chance of this ever becoming reality.

yorksrob · 26 Jun 2019

Surreyman said:
There are closed lines that have a realistic case for re-opening.

Would be a nice change to see some of those actually happen as well.

AlbertBeale · 26 Jun 2019

30907 said:
The present offpeak service at Shoreham is 6tph; Brighton P1/2 also have 6tph.
the 1950s offpeak electric service was 7tph, plus the hourly Steyning push and pull, plus the odd steam "fast" - so there's certainly capacity.

Besides P1 and P2 at Brighton, P3 can be accessed from the West Coastway direction - though only by 4-carriage trains. (Though perhaps P3 is already busy with Brighton Main Lane services; but then again there must be room for another platform on the eastern side, in recompense?)

I seem to remember from living in Brighton decades ago that there were once at least a few through trains from the West Coastway to the East Coastway; looking at the tracks when I was last down there, it seems that any such service could only have used P3, with a 4-carriage train, since P1 and P2 are on a bend at the edge of the station and can only access the west route. P3, besides having a junction to the west part way up, and feeding into the main line, seems to just have a link across to the east side in time to pick up the junction for Lewes.

Railwaysceptic · 26 Jun 2019

MotorcycleAlan said:
Thank goodness someone is being realistic. It is just an excuse to pay consultants loads of money to produce report after report, and there is no chance of this ever becoming reality.

Not one post in this thread suggests anyone believes this scheme will go ahead.

DynamicSpirit · 26 Jun 2019

Altnabreac's 4 golden rules of a successful rail reopening:

Population of 10,000+
60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required.

Guildford-Horsham:

Cranleigh 11500
Guildford-London is about 30 minutes so Cranleigh-London in about 50 seems do-able
Yes to trackbed
4th test gives a problem: No spare capacity into Waterloo until CR2 is built. Until then, the only terminating service at Guildford is the Waterloo-Effingham-Guildford stopper, which is way too slow and extending would probably give problems with conflicting moves at Guildford. On the other hand, perhaps you could wing this test by considering Guildford itself as a major employment centre.

Conclusion: Might pass, but iffy.

Horsham-Shoreham

Steyning 6K + Henfield 5K just passes. You could possibly add Horsham for Brighton flows - but Horsham-Brighton is already possible, just requires a change.
Yep. Brighton is definitely a major employment centre. Going the other way, you have Gatwick Airport. London just about, but a bit iffy since it's 50 minutes from Horsham. So well over an hour from the population centres on the proposed line.
Kinda yes to the trackbed, except that it looks on Google Maps like you have big problems at Steyning where the Steyning by-pass has been built over the trackbed.
Another problem with the terminal capacity - and at both ends. It sounds from what people are saying like this is not possible for trains to Brighton. For heading to London you do have 4tph of London-Horsham terminators, 2 of which also serve Gatwick. But just like Guildford, they are the slow trains and wouldn't be attractive beyond Horsham (except for any Gatwick flows).

Again this looks very borderline whether it'd pass.

Personally, I'd love to see both lines re-open, but it looks like terminal capacity is a big issue for both of them.

Guildford-Horsham may become do-able if/when Crossrail2 is built, opening up the possibility of a new half-hourly London-Woking-Guildford fast, which could then be extended to Horsham. I'm pretty sure such a service would be well patronised.

For the Horsham-Shoreham line:
You'd have to figure out a solution to the Steyning section.
For capacity:
To Brighton: This looks stuck at the moment. But thinking, a bit more: Although there are 6tph along the Shoreham-Hove line, only 4 of those actually go to Brighton. And the mix of fast and slow services mean some stations only get 2tph. Given the populations served, that's not huge, so maybe there's a case for capacity enhancements to get that up anyway? Also, more local services could theoretically allow the fast services to Portsmouth/Southampton to be sped up, which would be hugely useful. I would say the best chance of a Horsham-Brighton service would be if you could ride on the back of that kind of enhancement.
To London: I don't see much possibility for a service to London unless some capacity works on the Brighton Main line are done. The only other possibility that crosses my mind is: Could CR2 free up paths for a fast Waterloo-Dorking-Horsham service, which could then be extended to Shoreham or Brighton?

I do by the way agree that neither of these look very likely for the time being. Probably still worth campaigning for them though, in the hope that in 10-20 year's time the situation will look more favourable.

yorksrob · 26 Jun 2019

Four trains an hour (plus the odd Hove shuttle) into two and a bit platforms. Compared to how many trains into six platforms at Charing Cross ?

It doesn't seem like too much of a capacity problem.

Surreyman · 26 Jun 2019

This is not the first time the "Media' have a published a story about this 'proposal' to re-open the Guildford - Horsham - Shoreham line, it pops up in local newspapers every few years, ditto Guildford Dragon news website quite recently and probably others too. Newspapers/Websites love a story, no matter how impractical or unlikely.
Politicians are also fond of 'flying a flag in the air' i.e talking/publicising about an apparent proposed idea without actually making hard and fast commitments/solid policies, it is a an increasingly common and dubious PR technique used by many politicians/councillors/business people, it makes them sound good to the listening public. (I note Boris Johnson currently seems to be promising everything except free beer in his push to become PM).
I would point out that Guildford - Brighton via North Downs line to Gatwick = 45 mins, Gatwick to Brighton 30-40 mins.
I don't begrudge those who want to play the equivalent of Rail 'fantasy re-instatement', just remember that public funding for rail, needs to be spent where it is of most benefit.

Bald Rick · 26 Jun 2019

DerekC said:
A quick Google Earth suggests that in fact Phase 1 wouldn't be too bad at all in terms of demolition - maybe half a dozen houses. A new grade separated junction at Shalford would be kind of interesting, though. You probably have to divert the down Portsmouth line to the east a bit and raise it to allow a new combined North Downs/Cranleigh up line to pass under, which puts it into a space next to the River Wey which is likely to be sensitive - so not easy!

It’s not just demolition though.

It would no doubt include a load of back gardens through Bramley, and that can lead to a requirement to purchase the whole property. I happen to know people who live on Linnersh Wood; houses down there are £1m a pop. There’s over 50 of them which would have a railway over the back fence. As a minimum it would lead to blight claims (requiring purchase of the whole property) and potentially other compensation. For less than half a mile of the route. As they say - you do the Math.

DynamicSpirit · 26 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
It’s not just demolition though.

It would no doubt include a load of back gardens through Bramley, and that can lead to a requirement to purchase the whole property. I happen to know people who live on Linnersh Wood; houses down there are £1m a pop. There’s over 50 of them which would have a railway over the back fence. As a minimum it would lead to blight claims (requiring purchase of the whole property) and potentially other compensation. For less than half a mile of the route. As they say - you do the Math.

Would it really work like that? Sure, NR may have to pay about £1M for each property, but then NR would be the owner of lots of properties which they could then presumably re-sell for almost the same amount (after getting the property boundaries changed to knock off the bit of land required for the railway). Taking that into account, the cost would be much smaller.

Besides, would everyone want to move out and have NR buy their properties? I'm pretty sure that if I was living in one and the only loss was a small bit of my garden, I'd probably prefer to make a voluntary arrangement with NR to sell them that bit of the garden, rather than have them go through a legal process that forces me to move out of my home and find somewhere else to live.

Bald Rick · 26 Jun 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Would it really work like that? Sure, NR may have to pay about £1M for each property, but then NR would be the owner of lots of properties which they could then presumably re-sell for almost the same amount (after getting the property boundaries changed to knock off the bit of land required for the railway). Taking that into account, the cost would be much smaller.

Besides, would everyone want to move out and have NR buy their properties? I'm pretty sure that if I was living in one and the only loss was a small bit of my garden, I'd probably prefer to make a voluntary arrangement with NR to sell them that bit of the garden, rather than have them go through a legal process that forces me to move out of my home and find somewhere else to live.

Oh there would be some of that. But for those that do move, the cost to the acquiring authority is much more than the property value, there is a ‘disturbance allowance’ (usually at least 10%), two sets of legal fees, two or three sets of valuation fees, removal costs, sometimes financing costs, and more. You can’t recover any of that. And even then, whilst you can recover the cost of the property (or most of it), you still need the money up front, and it does count as a cost to the project (with the resale counting as a benefit). That can be a significant issue in affordability terms.

For those that don’t move, there is still most of the above extra costs, plus the value of the land taken, plus any works done to the property done as part of the undertakings made through the consent scheme process (e..g sound proofing, fencing etc), and the value of the property value lost due to now having a railway at the bottom of the garden rather than a bike track.

Then the costs of all the people on your team making it all happen.

It adds up very, very quickly.

DerekC · 26 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
It’s not just demolition though.

It would no doubt include a load of back gardens through Bramley, and that can lead to a requirement to purchase the whole property. I happen to know people who live on Linnersh Wood; houses down there are £1m a pop. There’s over 50 of them which would have a railway over the back fence. As a minimum it would lead to blight claims (requiring purchase of the whole property) and potentially other compensation. For less than half a mile of the route. As they say - you do the Math.

Through Bramley the trackbed is occupied by the Wey South Path, so I don't think there would be many back gardens to be purchased as such, but no doubt there would be claims. I am not sure what you do about the path itself - and further north the alignment seems to run between a school and a park, so that might be problematic too. I agree with those who say that it won't happen, sadly, but we can have fun thinking about it.

Bald Rick · 26 Jun 2019

DerekC said:
Through Bramley the trackbed is occupied by the Wey South Path, so I don't think there would be many back gardens to be purchased as such, but no doubt there would be claims. I am not sure what you do about the path itself - and further north the alignment seems to run between a school and a park, so that might be problematic too. I agree with those who say that it won't happen, sadly, but we can have fun thinking about it.

I’m afraid that’s wishful thinking. If a railway could be magicked out of thin air, then no doubt it could fit along the existing path. However to build it in the real world you have to have big yellow machines shifting thousands of tons of material, and they are rather wider than the railway, and need room to manoeuvre, turn round, drop off / pick up material, places of safety for construction staff, etc. Typically you look for an extra 5 metres either side of the track bed. This is particularly important on single track routes.

The school is St Catherine’s, an independent girls’ day/boarding school. Fees at £18k / £30k pa respectively. It is immediately adjacent to where Bramley Station was (the name plates were still there last time I walked it, albeit over 30 years ago!), and no doubt where any new station would be. It used to be a level crossing, but a bridge or underpass would be required, which would without doubt require school land and some residential demolition. Plus a large building site on the doorstep for 3 years+. You can imagine how well received that will be by the school governors and parents.

Timothy Turtle · 26 Jun 2019

Surreyman said:
Will never happen.
There are closed lines that have a realistic case for re-opening, this isn't one of them.

Sad but true

Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham line reopening proposal

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