GWR Class 800

Railperf · 25 Jun 2019

Having recently used Italian Frecciarossa service from Turin to Bari..a distance of almost 1200km (750 miles) and 9.5 hours, i feel qualified to say that the Class 802 service offering to Penzance for 350 miles and 5 hrs ..is just not good enough, in both standard or first class. The buffet is sorely missed. The Italians use one coach as a buffet/ restaurant car mind you the train is 11 coaches long.!! Of course i did pack some drinks ..because it is a long walk to the buffet...but at some point in a 5 hour journey..you do want some hot food...and the lack of buffet on GWR is a sore point. As is the fact you cannot order any hot food from the trolley as you can do on most Ryanair flights.
Why the rest of Europe see fit to offer a buffet car but DfT and GWR don't - is beyond me. Why don't the people that make train service and procurement decisions travel around Europe on a research exercise first? And why didn't we get a pre production prototype fitted out with different interiors to gauge customer feedback?
Some bad decisions have been made with the train interior and service level. Never mind the ongoing reliability issues with GUs being out.
Anyone wishing for 745's beware. Apart from their stunning acceleration - which may be on a par or slightly quicker than an 802 in electric mode to 100mph, these look and feel like a more modern commuter EMU. They don't feel like a long distance train. They are as luxurious as a Class 350/360.
The Norwegian version only had a vending machine - no buffet either. And it nowhere near offers Frecciarossa levels of ambience or comfort.
In comparison with Europe's best, the UK's newest rolling stock is sorely lacking.

RailUK Forums

ChrisHogan · 25 Jun 2019

Bad day for availability. There are 4 consecutive Bristol TM-Paddns shortformed 5 vice 10, leading to 3 out of 4 evening peak South Wales similarly shortformed.

Mag_seven · 25 Jun 2019

ChrisHogan said:
Bad day for availability. There are 4 consecutive Bristol TM-Paddns shortformed 5 vice 10, leading to 3 out of 4 evening peak South Wales similarly shortformed.

I was just about to post a question asking why this was?

TractiveEffort · 25 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
They have grown on me over time as both a driver and passenger, the one thing I still despise is the amount of 5 car sets ordered and the unreliability of the coupling and uncoupling at Plymouth. Buffets would be nice too, but overall feel it could of been worse when I look at the kind of trains being procured (for example) on greater Anglia.

The coupling issues at Plymouth are I believe nearly all on platform 7 where there is a problem with the track, quite why the stop boards don’t get moved or the track issued addressed, I don’t know.

ChrisHogan · 25 Jun 2019

Mag_seven said:
I was just about to post a question asking why this was?

Not coping with the humidity or the pollen?

Mag_seven · 25 Jun 2019

ChrisHogan said:
Not coping with the humidity or the pollen?

If that's the case it can only get worse as the week goes on!

83G/84D · 25 Jun 2019

Mag_seven said:
I was just about to post a question asking why this was?

Two sets out of traffic due to an incident at Paddington overnight didn’t help.

irish_rail · 25 Jun 2019

83G/84D said:
Two sets out of traffic due to an incident at Paddington overnight didn’t help.

Buffer stop collision?

83G/84D · 25 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
Buffer stop collision?

Not quite.

Clarence Yard · 25 Jun 2019

FGW_DID said:
The number of diagrams doesn’t sound quite right. It’s a shame that there is no breakdown of the 74 units available into type i.e 5car/9car
There are only 79 IET diagrams now which with 74 units available gives a shortfall of 5 diagrams uncovered. If that shortfall was borne by the 10 car formations you would only end up with 5 shortforms (5v10).

Sounds to be like there was an imbalance of more 9 car units available than 5 cars so quite a few of those short formations may only have been 9 vice 10.

Unfortunately my email trash folder regularly ‘empties’ so it only has emails from the start of the month.

That Rail article looks to be a bit pants. 18th May was a Saturday, before the timetable change. Only 61 diagrams were requested off Hitachi and 61 units were supplied. 6 units had faults which required them to run DO and 16 units had a GU isolated.

Currently about a dozen units are running around DO and a dozen have a GU isolated, some are in both categories. SX diagrams are 80 maximum and availability has generally been good recently, if bailed out by 9 car 800/802 units covering for 10 car 800 units.

Today’s shortfall has been mainly due to an overnight rough “coming together” which has put 2 x 802 5 cars temporarily out of action. With another 9 car 800 having hit a cow, North Pole has a shed full today.

Phil G · 25 Jun 2019

As I walked over the foot bridge at Chippenham today looking down on the 800 I'd just got off there was a bright light on the roof of the trailing car, this was some way from the pan but I assume it is something to do with the pan monitoring ( as no wires pan was down) is this correct? If not what's it for?

Phil G · 25 Jun 2019

SN1 19-5 said:
Hmm. Would you care to enlighten us?

The seats are grim. No buffet on them. Why else would you use them? Unless, you have to use them to get to work. If you do, you have my sympathies! I will not be going for any meal n pub mashups on the iep's!

I had the "joy" of a free ride earlier this month. This was from Plymouth to Reading, and, then back to Swindon. So, I wasn't doing me usual comfy day out jolly. I was just going home. I was glad to get off at Reading.

I went on a couple before Swindon got "electrocuted" I thought that they would have improved them since then. They haven't!

Well I use them to go to work every day, I can't imagine having the desire or money to use them as a leisure experience! Give me a nice 70's loco and mk1s and I might travel just for fun. However I use trains for the reason they are intended, to get from A to B. Since the 800s arrived I've been able to get a seat neatly every journey, since the wires they tend to arrive early every day. The seats are very hard and many feel like the frame is coming through which is unacceptable. The old covers looked filthy. As a commuter I never use the buffet, if on a longer journey I buy a beer in a nearby supermarket for half the price and so I really resent the space used by buffets when I can't get a seat. So on the whole they are a really good thing, not great but good for what the majority of fare paying passengers want.

Noddy · 25 Jun 2019

Master29 said:
I`d have loved to have seen 745`s down to Penzance (albeit in a bi mode capacity). Larger windows and a far better looking interior. The 800 `s do look good on the outside though and as Bletchleyite says overall they aren`t a bad train, just poor interiors and no buffet. Also, slightly underpowered. You`re absolutely correct about the 5 car fiasco west of Plymouth.

If they’d have ordered the 745s for services to the SW everyone would be moaning about how the doors can’t cope with the floods of tourists carrying surf boards and the like...

broadgage · 25 Jun 2019

irish_rail said:
Buffer stop collision?

No, two units collided with each other at very low speed.

ChrisHogan · 25 Jun 2019

Clarence Yard said:
That Rail article looks to be a bit pants. 18th May was a Saturday, before the timetable change. Only 61 diagrams were requested off Hitachi and 61 units were supplied. 6 units had faults which required them to run DO and 16 units had a GU isolated.

Currently about a dozen units are running around DO and a dozen have a GU isolated, some are in both categories. SX diagrams are 80 maximum and availability has generally been good recently, if bailed out by 9 car 800/802 units covering for 10 car 800 units.

Today’s shortfall has been mainly due to an overnight rough “coming together” which has put 2 x 802 5 cars temporarily out of action. With another 9 car 800 having hit a cow, North Pole has a shed full today.

It would be interesting to know if Hitachi has any incentive to deliver, having been several 5-cars short this morning, the missing sets later in the day, or under the terms of the DfT contract, is the penalty for non-delivery of a diagram for the whole day, meaning it may just as well hang onto them on depot until tomorrow?

broadgage · 25 Jun 2019

Phil G said:
As I walked over the foot bridge at Chippenham today looking down on the 800 I'd just got off there was a bright light on the roof of the trailing car, this was some way from the pan but I assume it is something to do with the pan monitoring ( as no wires pan was down) is this correct? If not what's it for?

AFAIK it is a light provided to illuminate the pantograph in order that it may be filmed in operation even after dark. When the wires come down, inspection of the "film" helps to determine if a defective pantograph or defective overhead was the cause.
This light is not normally noticeable to passengers except when viewing the train from above.

Clarence Yard · 25 Jun 2019

ChrisHogan said:
It would be interesting to know if Hitachi has any incentive to deliver, having been several 5-cars short this morning, the missing sets later in the day, or under the terms of the DfT contract, is the penalty for non-delivery of a diagram for the whole day, meaning it may just as well hang onto them on depot until tomorrow?

No, they are incentivised by the DfT contract to produce sets later in the day. But, of course, if the reason they are out of traffic is because of the operator, they can be excused the lack of availability.

_toommm_ · 26 Jun 2019

broadgage said:
AFAIK it is a light provided to illuminate the pantograph in order that it may be filmed in operation even after dark. When the wires come down, inspection of the "film" helps to determine if a defective pantograph or defective overhead was the cause.
This light is not normally noticeable to passengers except when viewing the train from above.

Yep. Helps with allocating the funds for delay minutes as to whether it's Network Rail or the offending TOC.

All new EMUs/Bi-Modes capable of connecting to the OHLE are required to have the camera and light.

Master29 · 26 Jun 2019

Noddy said:
If they’d have ordered the 745s for services to the SW everyone would be moaning about how the doors can’t cope with the floods of tourists carrying surf boards and the like...

Some probably would but not everybody, at any rate it`s just a personal preference.

ChrisHogan · 26 Jun 2019

Clarence Yard said:
No, they are incentivised by the DfT contract to produce sets later in the day. But, of course, if the reason they are out of traffic is because of the operator, they can be excused the lack of availability.

Good, at least the DfT got that right. Seems to be a similar availability problem again this morning with several more 5 vice 10 services again today.

TractiveEffort · 26 Jun 2019

ChrisHogan said:
Good, at least the DfT got that right. Seems to be a similar availability problem again this morning with several more 5 vice 10 services again today.

impacts with large animals aren’t usually one day fixes and 800022 hit a bike yesterday, so that’s out of service, the number of deer strikes this year is certainly higher than I can recall on any other fleet. No matter who the train supplier/maintainer is, they really can’t be held to account for hitting things that shouldn’t be on the track.

Mitchell Hurd · 26 Jun 2019

I know fans are to cool engines down but if you can hear them working on the IET's when some are not even 2 years old then something can't be right.

samuelmorris · 26 Jun 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
I know fans are to cool engines down but if you can hear them working on the IET's when some are not even 2 years old then something can't be right.

A fan running doesn't mean they're getting old and need maintenance, in hot weather it's very common for fans to be in use - fans are used on a lot of EMUs too.

DannyMich2018 · 26 Jun 2019

TractiveEffort said:
impacts with large animals aren’t usually one day fixes and 800022 hit a bike yesterday, so that’s out of service, the number of deer strikes this year is certainly higher than I can recall on any other fleet. No matter who the train supplier/maintainer is, they really can’t be held to account for hitting things that shouldn’t be on the track.

Doesn't help that 800002 and 800001 not in service yet. Let's hope no 5-car units are used on busy summer Saturday West Country serviced in the coming weeks, it's less of a problem short-forming Bristol and South Wales services which run far more frequently than West Country services.

Mitchell Hurd · 26 Jun 2019

samuelmorris said:
A fan running doesn't mean they're getting old and need maintenance, in hot weather it's very common for fans to be in use - fans are used on a lot of EMUs too.

Right, thanks

!

Master29 · 26 Jun 2019

DannyMich2018 said:
Doesn't help that 800002 and 800001 not in service yet. Let's hope no 5-car units are used on busy summer Saturday West Country serviced in the coming weeks, it's less of a problem short-forming Bristol and South Wales services which run far more frequently than West Country services.

That seems to be lost on GWR and the DAFT. They already are.

Thunderer · 26 Jun 2019

DannyMich2018 said:
Doesn't help that 800002 and 800001 not in service yet. Let's hope no 5-car units are used on busy summer Saturday West Country serviced in the coming weeks, it's less of a problem short-forming Bristol and South Wales services which run far more frequently than West Country services.

Believe you me, it is not less of a problem "short forming" services to/from Swansea, I have had that awful experience of a 5 car 800 on this service. Packed in like sardines, people standing in the vestibules and through the entire walkway of my coach, making it almost impossible to go to the toilet, or get up to get off for your stop. I've been a railway fan and frequent traveller for over 45 years and the bottom line is this whole IEP project has been a badly thought through, badly implemented "cock-up" of a project from start to finish. Electrification years behind, millions over budget and cut short, NEW trains that are too unreliable and far too complex, and still we have the issue with short formed trains. The project should have built more 9 car trains for all South Wales, Cotswolds and West Country services and a smaller fleet of 5 car trains for Oxford and Bedwyn services with the oppertunity of "doubling up" if needed for busier services. The amount of times I have seen the confusion when 2 x 5 cars are used is unbelievable - station boards getting First Class locations wrong, resulting in people legging it to the right positions for first class. Standard class ticket holders getting "ticked off" for sitting in first class when it is in the middle of the train when they have been used to it being at either end for over 40 years (plus First class is not clearly marked externally, like some one said to me, "where's the yellow stripe? I always look out for the yellow stripe") external coaches marked incorrectly, I have seen 2x5 marked A to E on both sets on a Camarthen to London service, causing no end of problems for people with reservations. Reservation systems that seem to work about 25% of the time, coupling issues at Plymouth, the list goes on and on. Its shocking and shameful that in the year 2019, we have a worse rail service on GWR in South Wales, than any time I can remember since the late 1970's. If this is "progress" then you can keep it. My car is going to get a lot more use now on those longer journeys.

samuelmorris · 26 Jun 2019

Thunderer said:
Believe you me, it is not less of a problem "short forming" services to/from Swansea, I have had that awful experience of a 5 car 800 on this service. Packed in like sardines, people standing in the vestibules and through the entire walkway of my coach, making it almost impossible to go to the toilet, or get up to get off for your stop. I've been a railway fan and frequent traveller for over 45 years and the bottom line is this whole IEP project has been a badly thought through, badly implemented "cock-up" of a project from start to finish. Electrification years behind, millions over budget and cut short, NEW trains that are too unreliable and far too complex, and still we have the issue with short formed trains. The project should have built more 9 car trains for all South Wales, Cotswolds and West Country services and a smaller fleet of 5 car trains for Oxford and Bedwyn services with the oppertunity of "doubling up" if needed for busier services. The amount of times I have seen the confusion when 2 x 5 cars are used is unbelievable - station boards getting First Class locations wrong, resulting in people legging it to the right positions for first class. Standard class ticket holders getting "ticked off" for sitting in first class when it is in the middle of the train when they have been used to it being at either end for over 40 years (plus First class is not clearly marked externally, like some one said to me, "where's the yellow stripe? I always look out for the yellow stripe") external coaches marked incorrectly, I have seen 2x5 marked A to E on both sets on a Camarthen to London service, causing no end of problems for people with reservations. Reservation systems that seem to work about 25% of the time, coupling issues at Plymouth, the list goes on and on. Its shocking and shameful that in the year 2019, we have a worse rail service on GWR in South Wales, than any time I can remember since the late 1970's. If this is "progress" then you can keep it. My car is going to get a lot more use now on those longer journeys.

Although I agree with a lot of that, surely it's fairly obvious you've ended up in first class even if you didn't expect it, aren't there labels everywhere, including the headrests?

Geoff DC · 26 Jun 2019

It doesn't help either that 1st doesn't look or feel like 1st

Master29 · 26 Jun 2019

You have to ask yourself why the west has a 2/3rds ratio of 5 car units and LNER have a 1/3 ratio. Again. Poor planning from the Daft. Should have been the same both ways surely. Obviously the Daft know what they`re doing.. Side splitter coming on.

GWR Class 800

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