Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

Jurg · 24 Jun 2019

Western Lord said:
There is no such town as "Nuneaton and Bedworth", nor "Hinckley and Bosworth". I very much doubt that you will find a resident of Nuneaton who claims that they live in "Nuneaton and Bedworth". I am not interested in local authority areas that lump towns together. I know what I mean by a town and Nuneaton has almost twice the population of Hinckley (2011 census figures)

Exactly. Maybe @Leo1961 should compare the population distributions of Nuneaton and Bedworth v Hinckley and Bosworth, then re-align his views based on that. Nuneaton and Bedworth is a relatively densely populated urban district with tight borders on each side. In this context multiple stations make sense as each station has a reasonable catchment of population and/or employment within walking distance.

Hinckley and Bosworth is a sparsely populated rural district with a couple of small towns. Some parts of the district are closer to Atherstone or Leicester stations than they are to Hinckley station. With the current population distribution I can't think of anywhere in the district that would even vaguely justify an additional station. Maybe if the DB Symmetry proposal gets off the ground a passenger station east of Hinckley could be justified, but that's for the developer or Leicestershire County Council to justify.

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The Planner · 24 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
Now come on. Easily doable. Via Foxhall Jn.

Loving your work there.

whhistle · 24 Jun 2019

swt_passenger said:
Fair point, but what would be the alternative route without involving Nuneaton?

Just build over/dive under and join it on to where the existing Nun-Cov line is.
Seems strange getting so close to Nuneaton without calling though, but unless you're going to bring back the old "cross over the WCML" jobby then it simply isn't going to happen.

whhistle · 24 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
I think the XC stops between Leicester and Nuneaton should be replaced by WMR

It might well be.
It's somewhat common knowledge that XC don't care much for their Turbostar routes amd the EMR ITT stated EMR can't run into New St.
Couple that together with the fact Transport for West Midlands is well on the way to taking over local West Midlands services... it all has a likely output at the end.
Speculation hat firmly on here.

nuneatonmark · 24 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
It is remarkably small compared to Leicester. And Coventry.

Given that Leicester and Coventry are two large cities, then just about everywhere else is 'remarkably small'. Both Nuneaton and Hinckley are a similar size to Kettering, Tunbridge Wells, Darlington, Carlisle, Maidstone and Crawley, all of them around 100000 in population. Are they also 'remarkably small'? The proposal to link Coventry and Leicester directly is via an underpass where they old loco sheds were. It would be logical to serve both Nuneaton and Coventry BUT if there were more services on the Coventry to Nuneaton line and Brum to Leicester line then it might not matter missing out Nuneaton.

si404 · 24 Jun 2019

nuneatonmark said:
It would be logical to serve both Nuneaton and Coventry BUT if there were more services on the Coventry to Nuneaton line and Brum to Leicester line then it might not matter missing out Nuneaton.

I alluded to this a couple of days ago, but didn't have all the numbers.

The West Midlands Rail Consortium's proposals have the following services as 2034 aspirations:
2tph Birmingham-Leicester stoppers
2tph Birmingham-Leicester stopping only at Nuneaton
2tph Coventry-Nuneaton stoppers (1 to Leamington Spa)
1tph London-Coventry-Trent Valley (giving a fast Nuneaton-Coventry)
2tph Coventry-Leicester (1tph stopping at Hinckley, 1tph non-stop)

And for completeness - changes for Tamworth and Burton via Coleshill:
2tph Birmingham-Burton stopper
Birmingham-Nottingham service kept with both trains heading towards Cardiff.
XC Intercity service at Tamworth and Burton doubles to 1tph each (presumably alternating services, but unclear).

While some changes need to wait for 2034 and HS2 phase 2 (the ICXC ones), others can come earlier. The London-Coventry-Trent Valley service seems to be post-HS2 phase 1. The Leicester and Burton stoppers with the curves into Moor Street. We've already got the NuCKLe service up to aspirations.

Meerkat · 24 Jun 2019

I thought the original plan was to reverse on the west side of Nuneaton then use the old underpass to get to the Leicester line without crossing the WCML on the level?

VT 390 · 24 Jun 2019

Meerkat said:
I thought the original plan was to reverse on the west side of Nuneaton then use the old underpass to get to the Leicester line without crossing the WCML on the level?

If this were to happen would it not still be quicker to have very good connections at Nuneaton of around 5 minutes and this would be more reliable.

Meerkat · 24 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
If this were to happen would it not still be quicker to have very good connections at Nuneaton of around 5 minutes and this would be more reliable.

People don’t like changing, with the risk that the next train won’t wait for their late first one or doesn’t have a seat.
I would imagine business folk who might well be interested in city centre to city centre trains don’t fancy packing up and standing around in the middle of the trip.

pt_mad · 24 Jun 2019

si404 said:
While some changes need to wait for 2034 and HS2 phase 2 (the ICXC ones), others can come earlier. The London-Coventry-Trent Valley service seems to be post-HS2 phase 1. The Leicester and Burton stoppers with the curves into Moor Street. We've already got the NuCKLe service up to aspirations.

If a service from London via Coventry and the Trent Valley is planned before 2026 as you suggest, has that been agreed with a franchise operator? Otherwise who will provide trains and operate it? Have Network Rail agreed or is it just an aspiration by the West Midlands Rail consortium?

Meerkat said:
People don’t like changing, with the risk that the next train won’t wait for their late first one or doesn’t have a seat.
I would imagine business folk who might well be interested in city centre to city centre trains don’t fancy packing up and standing around in the middle of the trip.

This goes against the DFT seperating the Liverpool to Norwich into two seperate services. It's impossible to have trains from everywhere to everywhere else just to avoid having to leave the train to change. If the interchange station has plenty of remaining capacity then why the need to avoid people changing there?

si404 · 24 Jun 2019

pt_mad said:
If a service from London via Coventry and the Trent Valley is planned before 2026 as you suggest

where do I suggest before 2026? Have you confused pre- and post-, because I said "post-HS2 phase 1"?

pt_mad · 24 Jun 2019

si404 said:
where do I suggest before 2026? Have you confused pre- and post-, because I said "post-HS2 phase 1"?

Ah I did indeed sorry about that.

si404 · 24 Jun 2019

pt_mad said:
Ah I did indeed sorry about that.

no worries.

Metrailway · 24 Jun 2019

Regarding Coventry - Leicester, when there were direct trains, I remember ticketing data suggesting that over 50% of the passengers were travelling between Coventry and Leicester/Nottingham and the rest was local traffic. I only know this because it was published online over 10 years ago but has long since disappeared off the net.

Since the end of the through trains, most of this traffic has disappeared from the railway and moved to cars. It doesn't help that the connections at Nuneaton are poor. It takes an hour to get to Leicester by train while by car you can drive within 40 minutes.

pt_mad · 24 Jun 2019

Metrailway said:
Regarding Coventry - Leicester, when there were direct trains, I remember ticketing data suggesting that over 50% of the passengers were travelling between Coventry and Leicester/Nottingham and the rest was local traffic. I only know this because it was published online over 10 years ago but has long since disappeared off the net.

Since the end of the through trains, most of this traffic has disappeared from the railway and moved to cars. It doesn't help that the connections at Nuneaton are poor. It takes an hour to get to Leicester by train while by car you can drive within 40 minutes.

If that's the benchmark there's no chance of beating it!

Class 170101 · 24 Jun 2019

Metrailway said:
Regarding Coventry - Leicester, when there were direct trains, I remember ticketing data suggesting that over 50% of the passengers were travelling between Coventry and Leicester/Nottingham and the rest was local traffic. I only know this because it was published online over 10 years ago but has long since disappeared off the net.

Since the end of the through trains, most of this traffic has disappeared from the railway and moved to cars. It doesn't help that the connections at Nuneaton are poor. It takes an hour to get to Leicester by train while by car you can drive within 40 minutes.

Depends on the time of day. 40 minutes seems to be a challenge in rush hour by road.

Class 170101 · 24 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
Andy Street, Mayor of the West Midlands Combined Authority is talking of steam trains running on regular services from 2021 in time for the Commonwealth Games creating 50 new jobs. That will be fun for the timetable planners, 'kettles' mixing with WMR, Chiltern and XC.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/iconic-steam-trains-heading-birmingham-16425300

Not convinced about the steam trains - Scotrail tried it and it caused all sorts of problems - some rather highly publicised as well. Not sure Scotrail do any of these anymore either.

adrock1976 · 24 Jun 2019

Class 170101 said:
Not convinced about the steam trains - Scotrail tried it and it caused all sorts of problems - some rather highly publicised as well. Not sure Scotrail do any of these anymore either.

Now you have mentioned Scotrail and steam trains, I remember recently that there were steam trains that ran along the reopened Waverley Line from Edinburgh to Tweedbank. How the regular timetable got knackered was the lengthy single track sections where if there were any delays, it would snowball for the rest of the day with the only way to recover the timetable is to cancel the regular trains.

The route from Birmingham Snow Hill and Moor Street to Stratford upon Avon via Shirley is double track. However, the route via Solihull would have a single track section between Hatton Junction and Wilmcote. If steam trains were to strictly run via Shirley, this would not touch any single track sections of route at all.

Class 170101 · 24 Jun 2019

adrock1976 said:
Now you have mentioned Scotrail and steam trains, I remember recently that there were steam trains that ran along the reopened Waverley Line from Edinburgh to Tweedbank. How the regular timetable got knackered was the lengthy single track sections where if there were any delays, it would snowball for the rest of the day with the only way to recover the timetable is to cancel the regular trains.

I think they do cancel regular trains to provide paths for the steam trains. Aren't they marked in the timetable?

edwin_m · 24 Jun 2019

Metrailway said:
Since the end of the through trains, most of this traffic has disappeared from the railway and moved to cars. It doesn't help that the connections at Nuneaton are poor. It takes an hour to get to Leicester by train while by car you can drive within 40 minutes.

pt_mad said:
If that's the benchmark there's no chance of beating it!

I presume a large chunk of the hour by train is waiting for the connection at Nuneaton, so a through service would be much quicker. Though making both services half-hourly will reduce the average connection time even if there's no attempt to co-ordinate (which is made more difficult because both services interact with other routes, especially when the Coventry extends to Leamington).

5min might work for a cross-platform connection but not here. People would have to get right across the station by bridge, including the possibility that if the first few people get the lift then anyone else needing it will have to wait for it to come back - twice. The connection time also allows for the incoming train to be a bit late, so I'd say it would need timing for around 10min to be reliable. Which is longer than it would take a through train to shunt out and back in to the other side of the station, especially if it only stopped one one side.

Bald Rick · 24 Jun 2019

Times change, but many years ago I spent six months commuting between Leicester and Coventry. I was on a train that arrived in Cov around 0830. Maybe 20 people used it.

Metrailway · 24 Jun 2019

edwin_m said:
I presume a large chunk of the hour by train is waiting for the connection at Nuneaton, so a through service would be much quicker. Though making both services half-hourly will reduce the average connection time even if there's no attempt to co-ordinate (which is made more difficult because both services interact with other routes, especially when the Coventry extends to Leamington).

5min might work for a cross-platform connection but not here. People would have to get right across the station by bridge, including the possibility that if the first few people get the lift then anyone else needing it will have to wait for it to come back - twice. The connection time also allows for the incoming train to be a bit late, so I'd say it would need timing for around 10min to be reliable. Which is longer than it would take a through train to shunt out and back in to the other side of the station, especially if it only stopped one one side.

Yes you are quite right. Prior to the new timetable, the wait was over 20 minutes at Nuneaton for your connection. I understand the new timetable has reduced this which is a positive step. If the dive under was restored at Nuneaton, you would be able to have a Coventry -Leicester journey time of 30 minutes or so.

Bald Rick · 24 Jun 2019

Metrailway said:
Yes you are quite right. Prior to the new timetable, the wait was over 20 minutes at Nuneaton for your connection. I understand the new timetable has reduced this which is a positive step. If the dive under was restored at Nuneaton, you would be able to have a Coventry -Leicester journey time of 30 minutes or so.

Even if it didn’t call at Nuneaton, it would be 45 mins+. The trains would call all (or nearly all) stations.

The mention of the ‘dive under’ has me wondering. When was it last in use? I know it was looked at for West Coast Route Mod, and there were various technical reasons why it was very difficult to reinstate. Hence the old flyover was reinstated instead, which is a much bigger structure (and cost a lot to restore).

si404 · 24 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
Even if it didn’t call at Nuneaton, it would be 45 mins+. The trains would call all (or nearly all) stations.

why would it stop at all (or nearly all) stations, when the proposals talk about 1 stop tops (Hinckley, on 1tph of 2)?

pt_mad · 25 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
Even if it didn’t call at Nuneaton, it would be 45 mins+. The trains would call all (or nearly all) stations.

The mention of the ‘dive under’ has me wondering. When was it last in use? I know it was looked at for West Coast Route Mod, and there were various technical reasons why it was very difficult to reinstate. Hence the old flyover was reinstated instead, which is a much bigger structure (and cost a lot to restore).

There was another thread knocking around on this subject and I believe a poster claimed that dive under was now used to carry large cables under the WCML. That thread even contained areal photos someone posted of the aforementioned fly under and layout in that area.

Leo1961 · 25 Jun 2019

Bald Rick said:
Even if it didn’t call at Nuneaton, it would be 45 mins+. The trains would call all (or nearly all) stations.

The mention of the ‘dive under’ has me wondering. When was it last in use? I know it was looked at for West Coast Route Mod, and there were various technical reasons why it was very difficult to reinstate. Hence the old flyover was reinstated instead, which is a much bigger structure (and cost a lot to restore).

According to the maps in the National Library of Scotland the 'dive under' was still in use in 1889 but had been truncated by 1914. The little local difficulty in re-instating it now would be the housing estate that now covers the area over which it ran.

Meerkat · 25 Jun 2019

Leo1961 said:
According to the maps in the National Library of Scotland the 'dive under' was still in use in 1889 but had been truncated by 1914. The little local difficulty in re-instating it now would be the housing estate that now covers the area over which it ran.

The housing estate isn’t over the route is it? Unless there is one newer than current google maps then the line is the northern boundary of the estate.

mwmbwls · 26 Jun 2019

The following indicative timings have been posted on the Construction Enquirer site.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/06/26/plans-submitted-for-2bn-midlands-rail-upgrade/
Proposed investment projects
Bordesley Chords (2026-2033): Two new viaducts to link services from the South West and East Midlands in to Birmingham Moor Street station and link to HS2 at Curzon Street (Cost £900-£950m)

Moor Street station – two more platforms and a footbridge linking to Hs2 Curzon Street station

Nuneaton Dive under, flyover or reversal (2026-2033): Reinstatement of a dive under or construction of a flyover of the West Coast Main Line at Nuneaton to enable direct services between Coventry, Leicester and Nottingham (Cost of dive under/fly over £100-120m)

Leicester Corridor (by 2026): a series of incremental improvements allowing faster new and existing services from Birmingham to Leicester (estimated cost £150-200m)

Neen Sollars · 26 Jun 2019

Above project would deliver far more bang for buck than HS2, and yes I know HS2 is next door. But this would be an excellent standalone project without HS2 and delivered far more quickly without HS2. During HS2 construction there will be little money for other more worthwhile projects.

Neen Sollars · 26 Jun 2019

I do not have a detailed historic map of the Birmingham rail network, but was watching a You Tube clip of a railtour heading into Brum via eastside and there were disused viaducts branching off all over the place only to end in demolished sections with new buildings on old footings. I think there were numerous connecting chords to various rail companies lines around Brum. There is one close to the pub where the Blues fans drink pre match.

Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

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