Paperless Season Ticket Troubles

Hi,

I currently have an Annual Season ticket zones 1-4 loaded onto my oyster card. I am moving to Redhill on Saturday which is zone 13 and I have been told that you cannot have a zones 1-13 annual season ticket.

I have been told that I need to get the zones 1-4 travelcard refunded and then buy a paper annual season ticket for Redhill - Zones 1-6.

I really don't want a paper season ticket as I just know this will degrade over the year and I read you can only get one replacement? I did think about a key smart card but correct me if I am wrong this will not work on all train companies within zones 1-6, SWR for example?

I did think about getting a 1-6 travelcard loaded on my oyster and then a zone 6 boundary to redhill season ticket (using the smart card as only thameslink/southern do this route) but this ends up more expensive.

Is there any work around to this that I haven't thought of?

Also on a side note, Reigate to 1-6 zones is the same price as Redhill. Am I right to assume I can do this so I get unlimited travel between Reigate and Redhill too if I buy from Reigate rather than Redhill?

thanks in advance for your help

r94o said:

I am moving to Redhill on Saturday which is zone 13 and I have been told that you cannot have a zones 1-13 annual season ticket.

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It may be in "Zone 13" but really this is just a matter for the workings of the Oyster and contactless PAYG system. It isn't in a London Zone for any ticketing purposes. You are correct that there isn't a Zones 1-13 annual season ticket, however it is possible, if you wish, to use contactless so as to cap the cost of your weekly (Monday-Sunday) travel at £109.10, but this quite clearly a ripoff compared to the £70.70 cost of a weekly season ticket!

r94o said:

I have been told that I need to get the zones 1-4 travelcard refunded and then buy a paper annual season ticket for Redhill - Zones 1-6.

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Unfortunately, if you bought your Travelcard otherwise than at a National Rail (NB this includes TfL Rail and London Overground) ticket office then this is correct. It is disadvantageous because a season ticket changeover is calculated pro-rata whilst refunds and repurchases are not - the refund is calculated at the rate of what you would otherwise have paid for a X month Travelcard, plus there is an administration fee which you do not pay for a changeover.

r94o said:

I really don't want a paper season ticket as I just know this will degrade over the year and I read you can only get one replacement?

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Paper season tickets do degrade, but you are entitled to a replacement at any time if it stops working barriers. You can request this from any outlet of the retailer who sold you the season ticket. It is only duplicates - i.e. where you lose your season ticket and ask for an extra one, without handing the old one in like you do with a replacement - that are limited in number.

r94o said:

I did think about a key smart card but correct me if I am wrong this will not work on all train companies within zones 1-6, SWR for example?

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GTR claim that Travelcards will work on The Key, but I am not sure whether this is the case. I know we have certainly heard of troubles with smartcard (non-Oyster) Travelcards. Either way, it would be a question of asking for the barriers to be manually opened - it's never a case of your ticket not being valid just because it won't work the barriers. The other thing that would really put me off is the fact that you must tap in and out with your smartcard, otherwise the season ticket isn't valid. Obviously doesn't matter at barriered stations, but it would be scandalous to be charged a Penalty Fare despite having a valid season ticket, just because you didn't tap in. No such aggressive policy exists with paper season tickets.

r94o said:

I did think about getting a 1-6 travelcard loaded on my oyster and then a zone 6 boundary to redhill season ticket (using the smart card as only thameslink/southern do this route) but this ends up more expensive.

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There isn't a Boundary Zone 6 to Redhill season ticket, it would have to be something like Purley to Redhill in order to cover you for both the stopping trains via Coulsdon South as well as the faster trains avoiding Coulsdon South via the "Quarry Lines". But you are correct - this would be a more expensive endeavour.

r94o said:

Also on a side note, Reigate to 1-6 zones is the same price as Redhill. Am I right to assume I can do this so I get unlimited travel between Reigate and Redhill too if I buy from Reigate rather than Redhill?

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Correct - you can often get more value from your season ticket than you think, simply by buying it carefully!

ForTheLoveOf said:

It may be in "Zone 13" but really this is just a matter for the workings of the Oyster and contactless PAYG system. It isn't in a London Zone for any ticketing purposes. You are correct that there isn't a Zones 1-13 annual season ticket, however it is possible, if you wish, to use contactless so as to cap the cost of your weekly (Monday-Sunday) travel at £109.10, but this quite clearly a ripoff compared to the £70.70 cost of a weekly season ticket!


Unfortunately, if you bought your Travelcard otherwise than at a National Rail (NB this includes TfL Rail and London Overground) ticket office then this is correct. It is disadvantageous because a season ticket changeover is calculated pro-rata whilst refunds and repurchases are not - the refund is calculated at the rate of what you would otherwise have paid for a X month Travelcard, plus there is an administration fee which you do not pay for a changeover.


Paper season tickets do degrade, but you are entitled to a replacement at any time if it stops working barriers. You can request this from any outlet of the retailer who sold you the season ticket. It is only duplicates - i.e. where you lose your season ticket and ask for an extra one, without handing the old one in like you do with a replacement - that are limited in number.


GTR claim that Travelcards will work on The Key, but I am not sure whether this is the case. I know we have certainly heard of troubles with smartcard (non-Oyster) Travelcards. Either way, it would be a question of asking for the barriers to be manually opened - it's never a case of your ticket not being valid just because it won't work the barriers. The other thing that would really put me off is the fact that you must tap in and out with your smartcard, otherwise the season ticket isn't valid. Obviously doesn't matter at barriered stations, but it would be scandalous to be charged a Penalty Fare despite having a valid season ticket, just because you didn't tap in. No such aggressive policy exists with paper season tickets.


There isn't a Boundary Zone 6 to Redhill season ticket, it would have to be something like Purley to Redhill in order to cover you for both the stopping trains via Coulsdon South as well as the faster trains avoiding Coulsdon South via the "Quarry Lines". But you are correct - this would be a more expensive endeavour.


Correct - you can often get more value from your season ticket than you think, simply by buying it carefully!

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thank you for your helpful and thorough response

GTR claim that Travelcards will work on The Key, but I am not sure whether this is the case. I know we have certainly heard of troubles with smartcard (non-Oyster) Travelcards. Either way, it would be a question of asking for the barriers to be manually opened - it's never a case of your ticket not being valid just because it won't work the barriers. The other thing that would really put me off is the fact that you must tap in and out with your smartcard, otherwise the season ticket isn't valid. Obviously doesn't matter at barriered stations, but it would be scandalous to be charged a Penalty Fare despite having a valid season ticket, just because you didn't tap in. No such aggressive policy exists with paper season tickets.

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Is this really the case? For oyster seasons it isn't

Just a thought. Are there any stations in zone 13 that can have a season loaded onto oyster. It may be that a season from one of those stations will show as valid from redhill. A technical loophole though. There will certainly be zone 13 season tickets when tfl rail starts in december.
.

matt_world2004 said:

Is this really the case? For oyster seasons it isn't

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With Oyster Travelcards the terms notionally require that you tap in and out, but there is no specified penalty if you do not do so, and there is nothing to say that your Travelcard is invalid merely because you didn't tap in and out. I would imagine, however, that you'd have a hard time claiming things like delay compensation if you didn't tap in and out. However, for The Key it is explicitly claimed by GTR that:

Does everyone need to touch in and out with The Key Smartcard?
Yes, for all train journeys you should touch in and out, or you may be liable to pay a penalty fare. For repeated misuse, we reserve the right to disable your Key Smartcard.

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There is no differentiation between season ticket and non-season ticket holders there.

matt_world2004 said:

There will certainly be zone 13 season tickets when tfl rail starts in december.

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Are you sure? Do you have a source for this?

ForTheLoveOf said:

Are you sure? Do you have a source for this?

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Weather it would actually be labelled zone 13 or the specific name of that station that the season ticket is valid for. There is no way tfl will not have the full range of stations that it serves not on oyster for season tickets.

matt_world2004 said:

Weather it would actually be labelled zone 13 or the specific name of that station that the season ticket is valid for. There is no way tfl will not have the full range of stations that it serves not on oyster for season tickets.

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Ah, but that is different. You are referring to Oyster and contactless acceptance. Oyster and contactless are already accepted on the Redhill to London route - it is simply that it is much poorer value, even with capping, than an ordinary season ticket. There are, I suppose, a limited number of circumstances in which someone might be better off once contactless is accepted up to the equivalent Great Western Main Line Zone "13" station. This might be if they commuted from Redhill to GWML Zone "13", because they would only pay the Zone "13" cap rather than the cost of a Redhill to Zone "13" season ticket. But that is really rather niche and not relevant to the OP's intended commute.

7jn

ForTheLoveOf said:

Ah, but that is different. You are referring to Oyster and contactless acceptance. Oyster and contactless are already accepted on the Redhill to London route - it is simply that it is much poorer value, even with capping, than an ordinary season ticket. There are, I suppose, a limited number of circumstances in which someone might be better off once contactless is accepted up to the equivalent Great Western Main Line Zone "13" station. This might be if they commuted from Redhill to GWML Zone "13", because they would only pay the Zone "13" cap rather than the cost of a Redhill to Zone "13" season ticket. But that is really rather niche and not relevant to the OP's intended commute.

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It isnt really because if two stations are in the same zone even if those zones are refferred to by station name the ticket will open the barrier and be "valid" from the station

matt_world2004 said:

7jn

It isnt really because if two stations are in the same zone even if those zones are refferred to by station name the ticket will open the barrier and be "valid" from the station

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I think you are very much mistaken there. The highest numbered Zone is 9. You can't get Zonal season tickets beyond that, so if you had a (say) Twyford to London Paddington season it wouldn't open the Redhill barriers and you'd be travelling ticketless.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I think you are very much mistaken there. The highest numbered Zone is 9. You can't get Zonal season tickets beyond that, so if you had a (say) Twyford to London Paddington season it wouldn't open the Redhill barriers and you'd be travelling ticketless.

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Watford junction to zones 1-9 is available on oyster this is an example of a season ticket beyond zone 9 being carried on oyster

matt_world2004 said:

Watford junction to zones 1-9 is available on oyster this is an example of a season ticket beyond zone 9 being carried on oyster

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Indeed it is. Also, stations between Hertford East and Broxbourne to zones 1-9 (or 2-9) are also available on Oyster. This is interesting because I believe a Hertford East to zones 1-9 travelcard on Oyster is also valid to use from Hertford North, even though GTR say you can't put seasons from there onto Oyster. Apart from Cuffley (zone 9) both branches are in Oyster zone 11, with the same daily and weekly caps on contactless.

I think the extension of Oyster to Reading is going to introduce some interesting options.

MikeWh said:

Indeed it is. Also, stations between Hertford East and Broxbourne to zones 1-9 (or 2-9) are also available on Oyster. This is interesting because I believe a Hertford East to zones 1-9 travelcard on Oyster is also valid to use from Hertford North, even though GTR say you can't put seasons from there onto Oyster. Apart from Cuffley (zone 9) both branches are in Oyster zone 11, with the same daily and weekly caps on contactless.

I think the extension of Oyster to Reading is going to introduce some interesting options.

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There are some stations that are in hidden 'zones' because of limitations of the oyster technology if two stations share the same zone. Even if that is not publicised. Would a customer with a season ticket from one of those stations get free travel from the other one,because oyster assumes they have got a season ticket for both?

matt_world2004 said:

There are some stations that are in hidden 'zones' because of limitations of the oyster technology if two stations share the same zone. Even if that is not publicised. Would a customer with a season ticket from one of those stations get free travel from the other one,because oyster assumes they have got a season ticket for both?

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Well that is the million dollar question. I've asked, in relation to Hertford, but not had an answer; hence my suggestion that it may work. I do know that if you buy a travelcard for Shenfield (z12) you also get Hertford East (z11) and Watford Junction (z10) thrown in for free. I think it would also work at Grays (z10) as well. GTR have confirmed that a zone 1-9 travelcard is valid at Epsom, which is technically zone 9 but GTR don't want to highlight it because the Epsom to zones 1-6 products are much cheaper.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Unfortunately, if you bought your Travelcard otherwise than at a National Rail (NB this includes TfL Rail and London Overground) ticket office then this is correct. It is disadvantageous because a season ticket changeover is calculated pro-rata whilst refunds and repurchases are not - the refund is calculated at the rate of what you would otherwise have paid for a X month Travelcard, plus there is an administration fee which you do not pay for a changeover.

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Depending on how large the refund "penalty" is, and how much validity is left, presumably the OP could retain their existing Z1-4 season, and supplement it with a Redhill - East Croydon paper season? Probably wouldn't save money but might be at least worth checking.

ForTheLoveOf said:

There isn't a Boundary Zone 6 to Redhill season ticket, it would have to be something like Purley to Redhill in order to cover you for both the stopping trains via Coulsdon South as well as the faster trains avoiding Coulsdon South via the "Quarry Lines". But you are correct - this would be a more expensive endeavour.

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Surely Coulsdon South - Redhill would be sufficient, as Quarry line trains cannot call at Redhill! Trains passing through Coulsdon South non-stop should be all right using zonal/season tickets.

DelW said:

Surely Coulsdon South - Redhill would be sufficient, as Quarry line trains cannot call at Redhill! Trains passing through Coulsdon South non-stop should be all right using zonal/season tickets.

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Oops, my geography was off, I forgot Redhill was on the non-Quarry Line

DelW said:

Depending on how large the refund "penalty" is, and how much validity is left, presumably the OP could retain their existing Z1-4 season, and supplement it with a Redhill - East Croydon paper season? Probably wouldn't save money but might be at least worth checking.

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East Croydon is in zone 5 so you'd not be covered between there and Selhurst or Norwood Junction.

MikeWh said:

East Croydon is in zone 5 so you'd not be covered between there and Selhurst or Norwood Junction.

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Oh, so it is, I think I was confused by the tram zone and misread the boundaries
Presumably the principle would still apply, but even less likely to be a saving.

DelW said:

Depending on how large the refund "penalty" is, and how much validity is left, presumably the OP could retain their existing Z1-4 season, and supplement it with a Redhill - East Croydon paper season? Probably wouldn't save money but might be at least worth checking.

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It would be handy if r94o could confirm how long is left on the existing season, at least.
Another question I'd like to know the answer to is whether the season ticket was bought from LU, a rail operator, or someone else.
For that matter, I'd like to know if r94o just intends to travel between Redhill/Reigate and central London with this ticket, or if any extra validity in zones 5 or 6 is needed.

If there was 3 months left, the ticket was bought from LU, and Reigate-London Victoria/Bridge-underground is sufficient, two options would be:

Buy Reigate-Selhurst 12 month season now (£1820). In 3 months time, when the the existing season expires, apply for a changeover for the new ticket to a Reigate-Zones 1-6 season (an extra (£3652-£1820)/12*9=£1374) for a total of £3194.

Apply for a refund of the existing season ticket now (for a refund, on last year's fares, of £1960-£1693.50-£10=£256.50), as well as a Reigate-Zones 1-6 season ticket (£3652), for a total of £3395.50.

Having two season tickets is more expensive here, so the longer is left on the current ticket, the better value a straight refund becomes.