Nick Ashwell
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Can you not just convert them to be 387s?
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New trains for East Midlands Franchise
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Precisely. Any of the Non LO electrostar family are similar enough to convert to battery.
Also the 6x 387 at C2C coming spare in about 2 years.
Qwerty133
Established Member
There is a very big difference between classes with literally hundreds of units in many cases that have never been a singular fleet and a relatively small class of EMUs that have so far worked together.
samuelmorris
Established Member
Perhaps but the Desiro UK has plenty of implementations across the country - the 360/1, 360/2, 450, 444, 350/1, 350/2, 350/3, 350/4 and arguably even the 380 are all pretty similar, sum hundreds of units and work in all sorts of different places, both coupled and uncoupled. I'm not sure I really see what the problem is.
Easily converted to 387s so easy enough to rehome with other 387s at GN (365 replacement), GatEx/Southern, GWR (post Oxford electrification if that happens). Or SE / SN with existing electrostar fleets also a possibility for Hasting /Uckfield battery or to displace the final few networker semi-fasts. SN 313 replacement (or even 455)
4-SUB 4732
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You'd have a more intelligent application replacing 319s and what not up north. Not only would the north finally get some half decent trains, but they'd also be ripe for Airport work as that's what they're already configured for. With batteries under each they can also do through trips to Windermere. 27 319s at present, 30 379s.
InTheEastMids
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Can always do what Hull Trains have done and backfill their unavailability with HSTs. In fact there will be 3 ex-GC units spare which... Oh...
Absolutely this. Tighter diagramming, 180s and the electrics might get you enough trains to theoretically bin off the HSTs on a 1:1 basis, but try to diagram it and you might well find yourself substituting a 2+8 HST with a single 4 or 5 car 222, even if you could plan on all 4 180s being available, which would be heroically brave to do.
Can't wait until a 180 has a major strop on the MML, maybe between West Hampstead and St Albans in the rush hour
RealTrains07
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But all types vary in size. 450 type has the most amount of units while 360 has the smallest amount. Its ridiculous thinking that any variation like 360/1 can be split up
samuelmorris
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Why is it ridiculous?
grumpyoldman01
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July's 'Modern Railways' arrived today, and it states (on page 13) that it is understood that the five ScotRail class 170s which go off-lease on 1st August 2019 are going to the new East Midlands franchise
RealTrains07
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Well thats a good start in replacing the 153s then
grumpyoldman01
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There's been speculation in this thread that there will be a swop between EMR and XC, 222s being exchanged for 170s.
If 'Modern Railways' is correct, this seems unlikely as it reports (July edition, page 13) that XC would like more 'Turbostars' to strengthen Birmingham - Stansted Airport services.
As the same article also suggests that TfW would like either 170s or 175s for its open access services (Swansea - Bristol in particular), how certain is it that EMR will end up with more 'Turbostars' in its regional fleet?
If 'Modern Railways' is correct, this seems unlikely as it reports (July edition, page 13) that XC would like more 'Turbostars' to strengthen Birmingham - Stansted Airport services.
As the same article also suggests that TfW would like either 170s or 175s for its open access services (Swansea - Bristol in particular), how certain is it that EMR will end up with more 'Turbostars' in its regional fleet?
Mitchell Hurd
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If I'm honest, a Swansea to Bristol service should be postponed. Nice to have new service but what about operators who need 100mph stock - like XC for instance?
RealTrains07
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EMR will most likely get majority of its 170s from WMR once the Civity units have arrived
43074
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The fact that the five Scotrail units they are acquiring later this year were originally earmarked for another operator, and indeed subleased by the said operator to Scotrail, should be a clue as to where the remainder will come from. They will have around 48 Turbostar units and no Sprinters eventually, if the various hints are correct. No swap will be taking place, the 222s would be unsuitable for the XC 170 routes anyway.
Chiltern006
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Apparently 8 units will go to Chiltern
aswilliamsuk
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Having had cause to use these services out of Cambridge recently, I can see why - two-car 170s on that route are woefully inadequate.
Ted172
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Sorry to go off topic, I believe that 4 of West Midlands Railway's Class 170/5s will be exchanged for Chiltern Railways's Class 172/1s.
RealTrains07
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Before or after the 170s leave WMR. Cause i dont see what they point is in swapping them beforehand?
hooverboy
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that's not exactly rocket science. it's coming from an airport!
footfall will be quite significant.
saying that, cambridge-norwich on the 2 car turbostar is also woefully inadequate!
swt_passenger
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Perhaps consolidating the entire 172 fleet with WMR was already planned, but not previously publicised; and this is a swap that has nothing to do with plans for EMR?
Had the dubious pleasure of an hour and a half on 153s today. I hope the rumour of 170s is true, for the sake of the good folk of the East Midlands.
The sprinters (all of them) are tired old rubbish. The 158s were OK back in the day but they too are well past their best.
The sprinters (all of them) are tired old rubbish. The 158s were OK back in the day but they too are well past their best.
RealTrains07
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I just dont see why swap them until the 170s are going EMR for definate
Prestige15
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This thread could be the reason why they could swap
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-class-172-change-to-hydraulics-transmission.176174/
RealTrains07
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All well and good but it would seem pointless to swap the units while they stay with WMR. When they are delivered to EMR then the swap makes sense
swt_passenger
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What I’m suggesting is that 4 x 170s aren’t ever going to EMR though...
But the 22x trains cannot work to Stansted Airport...
My bet (albeit a small one) is still on a swap of 158s and 170s with Scotrail, to give each operator a more common fleet of trains.
I made a large-ish post here about how a pure 170 fleet (which Abellio want) is possible, but would require a fair amount of swapping around.
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samuelmorris
Established Member
Yes, I heard the 172s were a problem for Chiltern on the fuel efficiency front for a while, seemingly the mechanical transmission, while good for acceleration, isn't actually very efficient for long runs at speed which is what the 168/172 fleet at Chiltern spend a lot of time doing (which makes Northern's 195 order for Northern Connect all the more unfortunate). Since the Overground units transferred, apart from this micro-fleet of 172s, WMT operate the entirety of the rest of the class. Transferring the 4 units from Chiltern to WMT and sending 4 regular hydraulic transmission 170s back that are basically identical to Chiltern's 168/1s makes total sense, and that's probably where they'll end up staying. Thus, 4 of the WMT 170 fleet will probably never go to EMR since WMT are keeping their 172s.
As for the swap with Crossrail, sending 158s up in exchange for 170s is reasonable, it's already been shown Scotrail aren't wedded to their 170s by sending some down to Northern after the HSTs, but swapping 170s for 156s isn't going to be popular, I'd be surprised if that happens.
Losing the Nottingham - Liverpool service frees up use of several 158s (I think 12, if all the services are currently doubled up? Not sure if that's the case) - on that basis, if all EMT's 158s went to Scotrail and were swapped for a similar number of 170s, then the number of units that don't need to replace 158s could instead replace 156s, which could be almost all of them. Then the 3-car 170s from WMT could cover the remainder and then a couple of the 153s and the 2-car 170s hopefully the rest of the 153s - I believe that left a shortfall of one, but if ever 153s are coupled to anything else or run in multiple, plus the consolidated fleet of a single class of DMU, they could probably get away with that. Thus, sending 156s to Scotrail should theoretically be unnecessary.
One major issue with the above, however, is that Scotrail's 170s are 3-car but EMT's 158s are 2-car, resulting in a loss of capacity if a like-for-like swap is made. The 158s will also have longer dwell times which may or may not be an issue.
RealTrains07
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How many 170s do scotrail have exactly??
you really think it would be enough for EMR to start binning the 156/3s??
So the plan is for WMR to gain more 172s for long term keep then lose 4 170s. Then whatever is left goes to EMR??
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