Saperstein
Member
At stations are the stop boards (3, 4 car S) ect advisories or mandatory?
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Stop markers at stations
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Aictos
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They’re mandatory as it tells the driver where they should be stopping at any platform.
I posted before thinking. Doh !
Yes they should be treated as Mandatory. Units align to certain points so that they don't clash with critical infrastructure (such as TPWS/AWS magnets) They also align for dispatch purposes and operational constraints (such as attachment and detachments etc)
Sticking an 8 on a 6 might, and most likely will, mean your sticking off the back and not clear of the platform.
They are very critical.
However, you can be stopped short where possible. There are many methods to do that.
Yes they should be treated as Mandatory. Units align to certain points so that they don't clash with critical infrastructure (such as TPWS/AWS magnets) They also align for dispatch purposes and operational constraints (such as attachment and detachments etc)
Sticking an 8 on a 6 might, and most likely will, mean your sticking off the back and not clear of the platform.
They are very critical.
However, you can be stopped short where possible. There are many methods to do that.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
They arent all correct however...
The 3 car stop marker for TPE units coming on to platform 4 at Newcastle from the King Edward Bridge direction. It has recently been discovered that if the driver changes ends when stopped at the marker board the other cab is on top of the TPWS magnets which makes setting that cab up difficult as it creates a brake demand!
The 3 car stop marker for TPE units coming on to platform 4 at Newcastle from the King Edward Bridge direction. It has recently been discovered that if the driver changes ends when stopped at the marker board the other cab is on top of the TPWS magnets which makes setting that cab up difficult as it creates a brake demand!
Soooo many incorrect stop marks.
Whoever put the ones up at London Bridge "£!$"£$"£%$£$%£%£
Even when we ask for them to be moved it seems to be a massive drama. Even when they put in new ones they still get it wrong. !
We have both.
We also have Purple RLU diamonds, Blue ALL diamonds, Black/Yellow hatched ones, SDO Marked ones.. T boards, Specific traction ones...
I've never heard of it personally. Knowing the railway. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a local one somewhere with local instructions. We have a Whistle board that can be 'ignored' under certain conditions.
We also have Purple RLU diamonds, Blue ALL diamonds, Black/Yellow hatched ones, SDO Marked ones.. T boards, Specific traction ones...
I've never heard of it personally. Knowing the railway. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a local one somewhere with local instructions. We have a Whistle board that can be 'ignored' under certain conditions.
The clearest instructions are in the current TW5 module:
"Driver:
You must stop your train at the platform as indicated by the car stop markers, where provided.
Unless you are authorised to do otherwise, you must stop your train so that all doors used by passengers are at the platform."
Group standards and RS521 are more ambiguous.
"Driver:
You must stop your train at the platform as indicated by the car stop markers, where provided.
Unless you are authorised to do otherwise, you must stop your train so that all doors used by passengers are at the platform."
Group standards and RS521 are more ambiguous.
jamesst
Member
We have standard black ones at most stations with blue boards at stations that have had stop short/overrun incidents
There are a few on our network we have to ignore. One was found to be in a gap so stopping there caused many problems. There is now a restriction where if formed of 4 cars you have to drop to the 8. The rule allows form flexibility.
Taking the Lewisham incident. The second part could have been used to authorize just the front set of doors in the platform for evacuation purposes. I've also been authorized into a platform knowing the rear hangs off and fouled the points. This was authorized by the Signaller.
We also have those 'stop short' bats that platform staff use to pull us short so that something can come on top of you. That would also be an authorised way to stop short of any markers.
Taking the Lewisham incident. The second part could have been used to authorize just the front set of doors in the platform for evacuation purposes. I've also been authorized into a platform knowing the rear hangs off and fouled the points. This was authorized by the Signaller.
We also have those 'stop short' bats that platform staff use to pull us short so that something can come on top of you. That would also be an authorised way to stop short of any markers.
Ours come down to route knowledge. Some are so far off it’s stupid. We even have one where if you stop at it, the back of your train is hanging off and you have another 50 odd feet in front of you. (Abergele UP with a 3 car 175 if you’re interested).
I think if you’re driving round in 8+ car trains then they are important, but with a 2 car 150 then you don’t have to be spot on, even at places like Man Picc. Although, for obvious reasons, you have to be quite close where it’s important.
Think the answer to your question is, it depends what TOC is stopping at what station with what formation of train.
I think if you’re driving round in 8+ car trains then they are important, but with a 2 car 150 then you don’t have to be spot on, even at places like Man Picc. Although, for obvious reasons, you have to be quite close where it’s important.
Think the answer to your question is, it depends what TOC is stopping at what station with what formation of train.
In short, yes.
The West Anglia at some stations has 4-car in blue, 8-car in yellow and 12-car in purple. The excellent Rail Signs website has eight pages on Stopping Markers- it says that the standard is Black, but that Blue is allowed to fit with other sign colour schemes (eg NSE used blue)
Not to mention you could set of the csde ( correct side door enabling) if you are too far off. For the layman on here, in short the train uses a mixture of GPS, tags and distance monitoring and if you are off the stop board too far, even if still on the platform, the unit will give you an alarm and the doors won't open until you override.
It's a matter of route knowledge, for me. There's no reason, generally, for the stopping position to be particularly accurate on our old-fashioned trains. Sometimes I know it needs to be pretty much spot on, perhaps for signal sighting (or an 'off' indicator for the guard) after changing ends, or perhaps to get clear of magnets, or a combination of reasons. Sometimes I know I can stop short of the relevant car stop marker, especially if the car stop marker is for more than one train length ("4/5 car stop" is quite common). Sometimes I let the train run a short distance past it, perhaps because I know it's tight at the back and I'd rather do that then end up stopping short, or perhaps because I know it'll give me a slightly better view of the starting signal or RA indicator in bright sunlight, or perhaps (there are some) because the train won't be fully platformed presumably because the car stop marker is positioned for shorter vehicles than our 23m ones. Sometimes there's so many different car stop markers for different TOCs that the whole thing just resembles a confusing mess.
In short, I find them a useful guide but don't worry too much about them unless my route knowledge tells me that I should.
In short, I find them a useful guide but don't worry too much about them unless my route knowledge tells me that I should.
The 3 car stop on the Huddersfield platform at Dewsbury means the train stops half way to Ravensthorpe whereas without the boards, the drivers stopped with the rear cab in line with the ticket office and thus much closer to the waiting room (and with more of the train under the canopy) and still had spare platform behind. I have also seen Pacers and the like observe the same boards (I believe the only boards are for the 185's and not anything Northern have) which means an even longer walk for those round the waiting room area!
axlecounter
Member
The 3 car and 6 car markers at stations on the Merseyrail network are always observed by tbe drivers.
Fortunately the departure boards on the platforms also say if it's a 3 or 6 carriage train so that you know where to stand on the platform (and also if it will be standing/sardine room only if it's a 3 instead of 6 carriage train!).
Fortunately the departure boards on the platforms also say if it's a 3 or 6 carriage train so that you know where to stand on the platform (and also if it will be standing/sardine room only if it's a 3 instead of 6 carriage train!).
Oh cool, we have the same exact problems over here, good to see we’re not alone.
Sometimes I get the impression some stop markers were simply attached to the nearest existing sign or lamppost that was vaguely close to somewhere that sort of looked like it was where a train might be OK to stop.
I recall an occasion many a moon ago now, on a foul winter evening - raining the proverbial cats and dogs - at lewisham. It was a sardine filled Six (4+2) car unit (two on the end, i believe).
Anyway, the driver stopped - at a point on the platform, as I was in the rear car I can't say where he stopped, but it was sufficiently far enough down from the canopy to warrant several outbursts from ajoining passengers squeezing on about where the train had been stopped.
I imagine it is tricky, especially at lewisham, for shorter trains given the curvature of the platform (No. 4, I believe it was - Down North Kent line anyway).
I also imagine that the odd driver may forget on occasion how long their train isn't - thus continuing along to the platform stop board / car stop marker they believe their driving. It has happened to me several times. I get on the train, for where i need to be at for the station Exit / transfer point, based on how long the train is, only for the driver to pootle through onto the 8 or 10 board instead of the 4 or 6 whichever the case may be.
It doesn't bother me - there are more important things.
I'll say it's a darnsite easier to get the correct locations for the boards when they are attached to the platform DOO monitors!
Advantage DOO?
*DOO - Driver Only Operation*
Anyway, the driver stopped - at a point on the platform, as I was in the rear car I can't say where he stopped, but it was sufficiently far enough down from the canopy to warrant several outbursts from ajoining passengers squeezing on about where the train had been stopped.
I imagine it is tricky, especially at lewisham, for shorter trains given the curvature of the platform (No. 4, I believe it was - Down North Kent line anyway).
I also imagine that the odd driver may forget on occasion how long their train isn't - thus continuing along to the platform stop board / car stop marker they believe their driving. It has happened to me several times. I get on the train, for where i need to be at for the station Exit / transfer point, based on how long the train is, only for the driver to pootle through onto the 8 or 10 board instead of the 4 or 6 whichever the case may be.
It doesn't bother me - there are more important things.
I'll say it's a darnsite easier to get the correct locations for the boards when they are attached to the platform DOO monitors!
Advantage DOO?
*DOO - Driver Only Operation*
Fixed DOO monitors on platforms will be a thing of the past soon enough due to in cab monitors. They've already been decommissioned on Thameslink.
The down side of having to line up with fixed monitors is that if a driver of a 4 car misses the monitors they will have to go down to the 8 car ones, creating the situation you encountered at Lewisham, but a non-DOO train or one with in-cab monitors has no issues if it stops a yard or so past the mark.
axlecounter
Member
Yep, exactly the same impression we have here. On the other hand we have cases where we know for sure there’ve been accurate measurements for the placement of certain stop markers, which instead of resulting in reasonably-placed markers ended up in boards being placed so perfectly close to the train lenght that stopping a meter short results in the train being off the platform...
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The alternative would probably be to position them exactly but with a sign or lamppost obscuring them from view!
Station infrastructure is very cluttered. Target fixing is a nightmare at the best of times. Curvature, posts, other monitors, billboards, canopies, foliage, and a few walls, just to name a few.
There are more than a few stop short incidents that can be put down to poor sighting and overly complicated stop markers. There should be a *single standard, but we all know how that turns out.
*https://xkcd.com/927/
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
All the intermediate stations between Huddersfield and Leeds now have stop boards marked for 185s, but Dewsbury had them for years previously which included 2 and 4-car stopping points from the days of 170s. Agree that the 3-4 board seemed further up the line than it needed to be, also agree that it was a pain if a 3-car 144 used the 3-car TPE stopping point!
All new ones at smaller stations are 'S' boards rather than variable with different lengths. This means a longer walk at Batley (up side) to or from the front set of doors.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Aren't stopping positions going to be automated with TPE's new trains?
Being one of the supposed reasons for delay into service.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
They might well be, though the new trains aren't in service yet so it's a bit "jam tomorrow". Also the intermediate stations mentioned won't have any of the new stock calling in normal service (Dewsbury excepted) so it'll still be 185s stopping at the far end.
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