Steam locos and signal sighting

Meerkat · 27 Jun 2019

Didn't want to put this in the railtours section as aimed at ‘normal’ drivers etc.

I often see dramatic photos of steam locos on main line railtours kicking out vast quantities of steam; one that stuck in the memory being Flying Scotsman on the ECML with a huge cloud of steam drifting across the other three lines at ground level.
Does this ever cause signal sighting issues, i can imagine it being abit disconcerting ploughing into such a cloud at 125mph however brief it must be?

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Dieseldriver · 27 Jun 2019

Meerkat said:
Didn't want to put this in the railtours section as aimed at ‘normal’ drivers etc.

I often see dramatic photos of steam locos on main line railtours kicking out vast quantities of steam; one that stuck in the memory being Flying Scotsman on the ECML with a huge cloud of steam drifting across the other three lines at ground level.
Does this ever cause signal sighting issues, i can imagine it being abit disconcerting ploughing into such a cloud at 125mph however brief it must be?

Not really much of an issue. No worse than bowling along at 125mph in thick fog.

70014IronDuke · 27 Jun 2019

Yes, it did. Smoke + steam, rather than just steam.

A man called Mr Deflector then made his name with an invention.

Islineclear3_1 · 27 Jun 2019

Engine drivers must have managed in steam days particularly with dimly lit paraffin lamped semaphore signals at night along with absence of AWS or other early warning safety devices now so ubiquitous these days

ComUtoR · 27 Jun 2019

robert7111a said:
Engine drivers must have managed in steam days...

Many many SPADs

pdeaves · 27 Jun 2019

robert7111a said:
Engine drivers must have managed in steam days particularly with dimly lit paraffin lamped semaphore signals at night along with absence of AWS or other early warning safety devices now so ubiquitous these days

The reason we have AWS, bright signals, etc. is because they didn't manage very well!

70014IronDuke · 27 Jun 2019

pdeaves said:
The reason we have AWS, bright signals, etc. is because they didn't manage very well!

Indeed. When you consider the conditions they worked under, most especially in wartime, it's a wonder there weren't far more deadly accidents than there were. True, you did have fogmen to assist in the worst of weathers.

EDIT: However, thinking about it, and the OP's specific question, footplate crews did manage it, the vast majority of the time. That is to say, how many accidents were actually blamed on drifting smoke (as opposed to fog or other sighting problems)? I'm sure there were some, at least where smoke contributed to obscure signals, but I can't actually think of any off hand. Did smoke contribute to the WR one with the Britannia?

LowLevel · 27 Jun 2019

The problem with reflection is the patented rose tinted spectacles. You'll often read on here and elsewhere about those halcyon days where men were men and thoroughbred enginemen flew around the country on their gleaming steeds while the lengthman trimmed the grass on his section with a pair of scissors while rousing British Transport Films music plays away in the background.

Take a step back.

Accidents with carriages being smashed to match wood and people being killed following signals being passed at danger were utterly routine until the 1990s. SPADs were a regularly thing. Sometimes they were noticed, sometimes they weren't.

Shunters tripped and were maimed and killed as they ran around fly shunting wagons.

Permanent way men were killed by passing trains and sometimes the loco crew who did the deed didn't find out until they were stopped later.

People from the works died horrific premature deaths from asbestos and other industrial related illnesses.

Enginemen went deaf.

Signalmen working long hours made mistakes and caused crashes.

So yes - they did their best with what they could and by the standards of the time but every railwayman worth their salt knows the rulebook is written in the blood of those we as a collective have failed in the past.

That's why we do so well today.

70014IronDuke · 27 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
The problem with reflection is the patented rose tinted spectacles. You'll often read on here and elsewhere about those halcyon days where men were men and thoroughbred enginemen flew around the country on their gleaming steeds while the lengthman trimmed the grass on his section with a pair of scissors while rousing British Transport Films music plays away in the background.

Take a step back.

Accidents with carriages being smashed to match wood and people being killed following signals being passed at danger were utterly routine until the 1990s. SPADs were a regularly thing. Sometimes they were noticed, sometimes they weren't.

Shunters tripped and were maimed and killed as they ran around fly shunting wagons.

Permanent way men were killed by passing trains and sometimes the loco crew who did the deed didn't find out until they were stopped later.

People from the works died horrific premature deaths from asbestos and other industrial related illnesses.

Enginemen went deaf.

Signalmen working long hours made mistakes and caused crashes.

So yes - they did their best with what they could and by the standards of the time but every railwayman worth their salt knows the rulebook is written in the blood of those we as a collective have failed in the past.

That's why we do so well today.

While much of what you say has merit, not one line addresses the OP's question and as you clearly feel passionate about it, I suggest it belongs to a new thread under a title something like: "Safety in the past on railways - do we see it through rose-tinted spectacles?"

However, to write "Accidents with carriages being smashed to match wood and people being killed following signals being passed at danger were utterly routine until the 1990s." is simply untrue. I doubt it could even be argued to be true had you written 1890s.

Dieseldriver · 27 Jun 2019

robert7111a said:
Engine drivers must have managed in steam days particularly with dimly lit paraffin lamped semaphore signals at night along with absence of AWS or other early warning safety devices now so ubiquitous these days

The Driver of the Up Express didn't manage too well at Headstone Lane back in 1952. 112 dead at Harrow and Wealdstone.
Thankfully there's less bravado these days and more of an understanding that expecting a human being, no matter how conscientious and skillful to manage the Train Driving task with limited visibility, discomfort and no safety systems is unfair and dangerous.

Mathew S · 27 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
Accidents with carriages being smashed to match wood and people being killed following signals being passed at danger were utterly routine until the 1990s.

Really? You must have lived in a very different 1990s to me!

LowLevel · 27 Jun 2019

70014IronDuke said:
While much of what you say has merit, not one line addresses the OP's question and as you clearly feel passionate about it, I suggest it belongs to a new thread under a title something like: "Safety in the past on railways - do we see it through rose-tinted spectacles?"

However, to write "Accidents with carriages being smashed to match wood and people being killed following signals being passed at danger were utterly routine until the 1990s." is simply untrue. I doubt it could even be argued to be true had you written 1890s.

The point was made elsewhere that they managed and my point was that they did by the standards of the time which wouldn't be acceptable today.

I personally have a habit of reading old accident reports ranging from the routine to the spectacular when I've a bit of spare time and there are plenty to choose from. They're extremely illuminating.

LowLevel · 27 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
Really? You must have lived in a very different 1990s to me!

Compared to the standards we set ourselves now sure. Since Ufton Nervet in late 2004 there's been a few near misses but only one fatal accident, the Pendolino down the bank on the WCML.

From 1990 to 2000 in terms of fatal accidents you had, as a start,

Stafford, Newton, Cannon Street, Cowden, Ais Gill, Rickerscote, Watford, Southall, Ladbroke Grove and Hatfield.

That's just train accidents and doesn't include various messy bumps and scrapes like the Severn Tunnel collision and Winsford crash where luckily no one was killed.

I mean in terms of what we hold ourselves to today it's a different world.

Mathew S · 27 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
Compared to the standards we set ourselves now sure. Since Ufton Nervet in late 2004 there's been a few near misses but only one fatal accident, the Pendolino down the bank on the WCML.

From 1990 to 2000 in terms of fatal accidents you had, as a start,

Stafford, Newton, Cannon Street, Cowden, Ais Gill, Rickerscote, Watford, Southall, Ladbroke Grove and Hatfield.

That's just train accidents and doesn't include various messy bumps and scrapes like the Severn Tunnel collision and Winsford crash where luckily no one was killed.

I mean in terms of what we hold ourselves to today it's a different world.

Oh absolutely. But, "utterly routine," really?
Certainly Southall, Ladbroke Grove, and Hatfield - the ones I remember - were very far from anything that could be called 'routine'.

70014IronDuke · 27 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
Oh absolutely. But, "utterly routine," really?
Certainly Southall, Ladbroke Grove, and Hatfield - the ones I remember - were very far from anything that could be called 'routine'.

OT (but then most of this thread is OT)

It's wot you get after half a century of The Sun a la Murdoch. Hiperbowl? You can say wotever you like mate, don't matter.

I specifically remember seeing piles of copies of the said 'newspaper' at Sheffield Midland in the early hours of one Saturday morning in October, 1969. I think it was the first week of its publication - the Murdoch version, I mean. The term "page 3" entered the English (UK) language around that time.

edwin_m · 27 Jun 2019

The effect of steam and smoke on sighting of signals by drivers of other trains can't be any worse than, say, a big bonfire in someone's garden backing onto the line.

In recent years NR seems to have got much more relaxed about the occasional signal being to the right, where BR would often erect a massive gantry just to put a signal on the driver's left. I wonder if this is the dying out of an attitude that started with the long boilers of steam locos, where for many right-handed signals the driver would have had to cross the cab or ask the fireman to take a look. And I wonder also if it's an increasing problem today, for example with drivers who drive steam only occasionally on a particular route and are otherwise used to the cab of a diesel with good visibility to either side. Any main line steam drivers on here able to comment?

70014IronDuke · 27 Jun 2019

edwin_m said:
The effect of steam and smoke on sighting of signals by drivers of other trains can't be any worse than, say, a big bonfire in someone's garden backing onto the line.

I await comments from experienced drivers, but I think it was worse back in the day.

A fire to the side of a line (so long as it's not huge) will have smoke drifting across the line. You are in it for a few seconds, but then out. And these days you have AWS or better everywhere.

However, drivers on locos of old complained of smoke rolling down (ie hugging) the boiler and obscuring their sight for relatively long periods. I have never seen this defined, but I would assume it meant 20-30 seconds, even more. And remember, often without AWS.

This was particularly true when double chimneys, which produced a softer blast, were introduced on locos such as Royal Scots and Gresley A3s. (MarkyT, where are you when needed?)

GWR locos had taller chimneys, so when Kings and Castles got double chimneys, it didn't matter.

edwin_m said:
In recent years NR seems to have got much more relaxed about the occasional signal being to the right, where BR would often erect a massive gantry just to put a signal on the driver's left. I wonder if this is the dying out of an attitude that started with the long boilers of steam locos, where for many right-handed signals the driver would have had to cross the cab or ask the fireman to take a look. And I wonder also if it's an increasing problem today, for example with drivers who drive steam only occasionally on a particular route and are otherwise used to the cab of a diesel with good visibility to either side. Any main line steam drivers on here able to comment?

It might be so, but again, you have AWS+ almost everywhere, and every main-line steam turn has an inspector in the cab, doesn't it? He can always help out if there's trouble sighting the odd signal, even if the fireman is busy.

edwin_m · 27 Jun 2019

Right-handed signals, smoke and fog contributed to the major accident at Lewisham in 1957.

LowLevel · 27 Jun 2019

To more directly answer the question, I suppose, yes steam hanging around can be a problem. I routinely work with steam engines and you have to be particularly careful in some environmental conditions as steam lingering can cause hazards a) for the driver and b) for the signalman or a shunter operating points and controlling movements.

The most recent occurrence of a problem of this type is I believe the linked below accident report, whereby a localised concentration of steam following the opening of the drain cocks on the locomotive, combined with a couple of other things mentioned in the report, caused a driver to lose his bearings and collide with a set of carriages. This was in 2006 on the Great Central Railway in Loughborough.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=497

Peter Fox · 27 Jun 2019

The problems with actual obscured vision pale into insignificance with the general difficulty of fatigue, grime, physical effort, weather in your face and down your neck. Also at the ends of the shift the crew didn't get into their plush Bently and probably walked or cycled in all weathers at all times of day and night. They were tough boys. Also they'd learned the road over decades as they worked up through the grades. Speeds were typically slower but the weather, vibration and physical effort were an order of magnitude more demanding.

Accident report inspectors often dismiss the claimed difficulty of sighting signals as vastly exaggerated. Typically they would say "I don't believe Driver Smith couldn't see the signal, and even if he couldn't it was his duty to treat it at danger. Instead I believe he was distracted and forgot where he was / which line he was on / missed the signal in the fog but pressed-on knowing he'd missed it."

A theme of steam era SPAD reports is that colour light signals are SO much brighter than semaphore oil lamps.

Tunnels are a different and rather dreadful matter where sighting lamps is difficult in the best of times. In that environment the lamps corroded quickly or sooted-up if the wrong spares or wartime grade of oil was used.

Cowley · 27 Jun 2019

This is an interesting thread.

70014IronDuke said:
I'm sure there were some, at least where smoke contributed to obscure signals, but I can't actually think of any off hand. Did smoke contribute to the WR one with the Britannia?

I seem to remember that the handrails fitted to the deflectors on the WR Brits were partly blamed, because I think they were removed and replaced with inset grab handles.
Was this something to do with them being driven on the opposite side to Great Western designs maybe?
(I should probably be looking this up before making wild claiming posts)

The Lad · 27 Jun 2019

It was darker in days of old so the oil lamps wouldn't have seemed quite so dim.

sw1ller · 28 Jun 2019

cant Imagine it’s much fun going into a long tunnel as one passes by. Especially ones with a station stop at the other end like Sutton or a red like Bangor. Need to get your breaking points bob on.

I’ve never passed one in a long tunnel though. I can only answer for normal running and no, it’s never been an issue, even for a relatively new driver like me (4 years). You’ve got various safety systems like AWS & TPWS+, you can use these as markers like you would in the fog to determine how far from a signal you are. By the time it’s of any issue the smoke/steam has cleared and you’ve already forgotten about the steam train. A bigger issue is with the few idiots trespassing to get nearer to them and having close calls. But that’s for another thread.

Taunton · 28 Jun 2019

70014IronDuke said:
However, drivers on locos of old complained of smoke rolling down (ie hugging) the boiler and obscuring their sight for relatively long periods. I have never seen this defined, but I would assume it meant 20-30 seconds, even more. And remember, often without AWS.

This was particularly true when double chimneys, which produced a softer blast, were introduced

To be precise, it wasn't the smoke that hugged (although what were called "smoke deflectors" were indeed introduced to try to combat it) but more steam. And that was overcome approaching signals by the driver shutting off steam for a moment, it clears pretty instantly, they sight the Distant at clear, and on we go to the next section.

An upside of semaphore Distant signals is that if you miss them you can look back after passing and still see the indication, something lost with colour lights. Even at night there is the signal backlight, quite visible. Don't dismiss this, it was regularly done, eg snow obscuring the loco spectacle plate.

Safety valve steam could be more of an issue, as the driver couldn't shut that off when needed, hence the development of the Ross Pop valves which were either shut normal or blasted the steam high and clear.

Regarding Flying Scotsman etc covered in steam, we had a discussion here not long ago about the great use nowadays of cylinder cocks to blast out steam, especially when starting but at other times as well. For those of us of a Certain Age we can recall being on stations and never seeing the cocks being used all day. Quite why this habit has developed since the end of "proper" steam, goodness knows.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cylinder-cocks.178015/

Welshman · 28 Jun 2019

sw1ller said:
cant Imagine it’s much fun going into a long tunnel as one passes by. Especially ones with a station stop at the other end like Sutton or a red like Bangor. Need to get your breaking points bob on.

I’ve never passed one in a long tunnel though. I can only answer for normal running and no, it’s never been an issue, even for a relatively new driver like me (4 years). You’ve got various safety systems like AWS & TPWS+, you can use these as markers like you would in the fog to determine how far from a signal you are. By the time it’s of any issue the smoke/steam has cleared and you’ve already forgotten about the steam train. A bigger issue is with the few idiots trespassing to get nearer to them and having close calls. But that’s for another thread.

I'm old enough to remember the 1960's in West Yorkshire, when steam and dmus were using the network.

A particularly difficult spot was Bowling tunnel at the top of the incline from Bradford Exchange on the ex L&Y route to Halifax and the Calder Valley, where sometimes a dmu going into Bradford would meet a heavy steam -hauled train having come up the bank.

The steamer would usually have been banked as far as Bowling Junction, and the banker would be sitting near the tunnel mouth, ready to be crossed-over to return to Bradford after the dmu had passed, and so emitting some smoke at the tunnel mouth.

The steamer would be accelerating through Bowling tunnel, filling it with smoke, into which the dmu entered going the opposite way. From the front seat of a dmu you could see the driver's difficulty, especially if he'd been cautioned at the mouth of the tunnel. It was full of smoke, and it depended soley on his sensing when he was nearing the end, and edging forward ever so slowly, as the signal protecting the junction was right outside the tunnel. He had my full admiration, as there was no AWS in those days, and to emerge too quickly could have resulted in a spad.
In most cases, the signal would have cleared by the then, and it was a case of a sigh of relief, slip into second gear, and accelerate.

But a very testing situation, nonetheless.

70014IronDuke · 29 Jun 2019

Cowley said:
This is an interesting thread.

I seem to remember that the handrails fitted to the deflectors on the WR Brits were partly blamed, because I think they were removed and replaced with inset grab handles.
Was this something to do with them being driven on the opposite side to Great Western designs maybe?
(I should probably be looking this up before making wild claiming posts)

Yes, handrails! (If you can believe that!). Driver on the LHS was different, of course. Yes, I can believe that didn't help at all.

hexagon789 · 29 Jun 2019

In the BTF Elizabethan Express, at one point in the film the driver signals to the fireman to move to his side of the cab by pointing down at the floor on his side and the fireman moves over to assist the driver in sighting the signal. I assume that this was common enough that firemen would help with the signal sighting, presumably that was more important with the issues of sighting mentioned above.

Bromley boy · 29 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
In the BTF Elizabethan Express, at one point in the film the driver signals to the fireman to move to his side of the cab by pointing down at the floor on his side and the fireman moves over to assist the driver in sighting the signal. I assume that this was common enough that firemen would help with the signal sighting, presumably that was more important with the issues of sighting mentioned above.

That is one of the seminal railway-porn films!

I seem to recall reading that the 1957 Lewisham rail crash was partly attributed to difficulty reading signals from the cab of a Bullied Pacific loco and hastened the roll out of AWS across the national network.

In steam days firemen were certainly competent to read signals and would assist the driver by looking out of the offside of the cab to do so.

hexagon789 · 29 Jun 2019

Bromley boy said:
In steam days firemen were certainly competent to read signals and would assist the driver by looking out of the offside of the cab to do so.

Presumably far more important in those days, I would imagine that there would be less practical need for assistance in signal sighting with the diesels or electrics that took over.

Bromley boy · 29 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
Presumably far more important in those days, I would imagine that there would be less practical need for assistance in signal sighting with the diesels or electrics that took over.

Yes indeed.

On a related note, semaphore signals can be a pig to see even in clear weather. Quaint as they are I wouldn’t want to drive to them regularly.

Steam locos and signal sighting

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