absolutelymilk
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ERTMS was due to be rolled out on the ECML and the GWML in the next few years, is this still due to happen?
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ERTMS rollout on ECML and GWML
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Railsigns
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LNW-GW Joint
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GWML will get ETCS (European Train Control System) between Paddington and Reading (including the Heathrow branch) by 2019 (I think). The contract has been let (to Alstom).
Fitment beyond Reading, as originally mooted, is anyone's guess.
This is an "overlay" and does not require the removal of existing signalling, but it will allow removal of GW ATP where it is implemented.
The ECML was due to get it south of Doncaster, accompanied by the removal of fixed signals.
I'm not sure any of this is committed, despite tests taking place on the Hertford Loop.
The Hitachi system being implemented in the Thameslink Core will probably have some impact on the wider ECML scheme.
Among other things, the costs of fitting large numbers of cabs, including freight locos and older stock, are very high.
Fitment beyond Reading, as originally mooted, is anyone's guess.
This is an "overlay" and does not require the removal of existing signalling, but it will allow removal of GW ATP where it is implemented.
The ECML was due to get it south of Doncaster, accompanied by the removal of fixed signals.
I'm not sure any of this is committed, despite tests taking place on the Hertford Loop.
The Hitachi system being implemented in the Thameslink Core will probably have some impact on the wider ECML scheme.
Among other things, the costs of fitting large numbers of cabs, including freight locos and older stock, are very high.
absolutelymilk
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According to this article, it will be installed between Paddington and Reading by the end of 2017 and between Paddington and Bristol by 2019.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/rail-uk/20160507/282471413068701
coppercapped
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I think the article has been overtaken by events.
As I understand it the only work going on is on the Heathrow branch - as ATP is required for the Crossrail trains in the tunnel and fitting the obsolete GW version of ATP to the Crossrail trains is not an option.
The other work has been delayed as gaining access to the tracks while the electrification and associated works are going on is not possible.
D365
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To be fair, I always get the 'R' and the 'T' mixed up.
Railsigns
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Many, many people do, as they do too with ETCS (ECTS) and TPWS (TWPS).
LNW-GW Joint
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On top of that, the Digital Railway programme is under review along with all NR's CP5 projects.
The view I've seen expressed is that the major route-based ETCS projects will be replaced by local schemes with an immediate payback (like Thameslink Core and Heathrow).
kevin_roche
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I found this today. It was written last year and I realise that things have almost certainly changed since then:
Crossrail Project Representative Crossrail Joint Sponsor Team Semi-Annual Construction Report 2031 March 2018 – 15 September 2018
On page 27 it says
Crossrail Project Representative Crossrail Joint Sponsor Team Semi-Annual Construction Report 2031 March 2018 – 15 September 2018
On page 27 it says
Aim is for 2021 ish between Airport Jn and Acton ML with further east waiting till re-signalling with the planned work for OOC station and Paddington throat.
kevin_roche
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I wonder how that will sit with the plan to implement Stage 5a with trains from Paddington to Reading and Heathrow. Looks to me that they will have to leave out any idea of adding additional Heathrow trains until ETCS can be installed.
coppercapped
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As I understand it the Crossrail trains will run using multiple aspect signalling and TPWS between the changeover point at Westbourne Park and Reading, just like the Class 165/166s used to and the Class 387s now do, but starting at Paddington. ERTMS/ETCS is not needed in order to add a few extra trains on the GWML Relief lines. On the other hand ETRMS/ETCS is needed in the Heathrow tunnels to give positive train protection just as the obsolete ATP system does.
When the Class 387s take over the Heathrow Express service the old ATP will be removed from the tunnels permitting the Class 345s to run to Heathrow. This changeover is scheduled for next autumn so the Class 332s can be removed from service and their maintenance depot demolished to make room for HS2.
kevin_roche
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Thank you. I was looking at the Heathrow paths and wondering if that was the case. Do you meant the changeover is scheduled for Autumn 2019 or Autumn 2020?
coppercapped
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The original press release stated that Heathrow Express's Old Oak Common depot had to close by December 2019 in order for HS2 to keep to its schedule.
However, as HS2 has not yet had the go-ahead to spend money on construction - as distinct from site preparation - this date could well have slipped! I have not seen any public acknowledgement of any slippage - but that's not the sort of thing that would be publicised anyway! - so it could be that the Class 332s have a short stay of execution.
On the other hand, the first 387s have been reliveried and apparently the internal re-arrangements are going to start soon, so maybe GWR is still aiming for an autumn/winter 2019 changeover. As far as GWR is concerned I would think that a significant driver would be the ETCS maturity - but the 387 is slightly less complex than the 345 as it only has to interwork with one system rather than two. I've read reports which claim that the ETCS in the tunnels works well, as long as the ATP is not active at the same time.
So HEx may change over this autumn/winter, but the Class 345s may need a bit longer.
I hope that makes sense!
(Edit: I realised after your post that my choice of language was less than clear. Apologies! I hope I've retrieved the situation!)
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edwin_m
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As ERTMS and GW-ATP can't be active simultaneously, I think there would have to be a day or two's closure of the Heathrow branch for testing and commissioning. And the fact that none of the units has both systems implies a "big bang" changeover, with the 332s and 360s working all services up to the day before and 387s and 345s working all services the day after. If 345s can't run under ERTMS, what replaces the 360s? Maybe just cancel the Connect service...
kevin_roche
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Peter Gracey of Bechtel told me at presentation to the IET Solent Section on 27th March that there was no problem with interference between ETCS and GW-ATP. I have no idea what he meant by that, he would not explain further. Maybe, as you say, the plan is never to run them simultaneously. I believe there may be a plan to test run the 345s overnight when the HEX is not running. I presume they can test the 345s and the 387s on a test track before that.
Here is an info-graphic from the crossrail website that implies the 345s on Heathrow service (Stage 2B) will not begin until a few months after the service to Reading (Stage 5A).
As you can see its a bit vague about dates.
Here is an info-graphic from the crossrail website that implies the 345s on Heathrow service (Stage 2B) will not begin until a few months after the service to Reading (Stage 5A).
As you can see its a bit vague about dates.
edwin_m
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I've seen similar reports to those mentioned by Coppercapped that the two can't be switched on at the same time. I've an idea it's only been found to be an issue in the tunnels, which may be why it wasn't expected. The usual way to transition between ATP-type systems is to install the new one but keep the old one working so that both types of train can just use the systems they are equpped for, then take the old system out when the new trains are all running and the old ones are no longer needed. But it turns out that wouldn't work here.
axlecounter
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I wonder why can’t they be switched on at the same time? From what I read the GW-ATP is just another sort of balise-to-train type of ATP, so that should be easily integrated in the ETCS balises? Am I missing something?
The two systems use the same carrier frequency, and the signal strength from the old balises is much higher than that emitted by the new ones. I have also read that the tunnel shape introduces a waveguide effect that serves to propagate the signal more widely. I suspect the new balise reader may get swamped by the old ATP signal and that might result in a failsafe shutdown onboard.
axlecounter
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I get that you can’t have the two type of balises on at the same time, but the data for the old ATP could be included in the P44 of the new ETCS balises and transmitted only via the new ones.
But on a second thought then you should have the old stock equipped for that before the changeover, and as I read it, it isn’t the case here?
332s would need new balise readers and a new onboard interface to the ATP. A lot of development for a train soon to be surplus to requirements. Nobody wants the difficulties and costs of developing an unplanned GW-ATP interface onboard the 345s and 387s that would immediately become obsolete once the final changeover is complete.
but a temporary TPWS installation would enable the running of 387's and 345's whist 332's still operate with ERTMS commissioning taking place when all is operated by 387/345 under TPWS? you could also only equip junction signals(overspeed and train stop) and enforce double manning on services that operate in the tunnel sections short term? Obviously won't happen though, and looks like it will be a cutover from one to the other with an extended possession and change of stock.
HSTEd
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Unless the 332s are going to the scrapline, aren't they going to need TPWS at some point anyway?
swt_passenger
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The presumption taken across a wide range of previous posts is that they will in fact be scrapped...
HSTEd
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The optics on that are going to look good..... scrapping midlife trains whilst much older stock like 319s continue to soldier on....
Another challenge in the tunnels is the derailment containment. This includes a massive concrete slab built up to rail level between the rails. Any additional transponders for temporary warning systems such as the suggested TPWS would need new recesses cut into this, including routes for the cables connecting them to equipment cabinets. And TPWS loops are large compared to Eurobalises. Expensive and time consuming work that would block lines during no train periods when testing of the new rolling stock on ETCS could be being carried out.
edwin_m
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Aren't the Eurobalises thin enough that when installed on a surface at rail level, they would still not infringe the gauge? AWS magnets and similar can protrude a bit above top of rail.
There’s a whole thread on it; but in short:-
1) A ROSCO would need to purchase the trains from Heathrow Airport Ltd (if they even were for sale)
2) That ROSCO would have to spend £Ms fitting TPWS; giving the units a mechanical overhaul and whatever other modifications required to make them suitable for ordinary Mainline service.
All while they also have 317s, 319s, 321s, 323s, 360s, 379s and probably others rotting in sidings looking for a new lessee. None of which need nearly as much if any money spent on them making them available.
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We had a meeting/briefing at work earlier in the week. One of the main items on the agenda was teaching us controllers the basics of ETCS for when the 387s are introduced on HX services. There are some delays to the 387 ETCS fitment, but nothing too arduous. Expecting to test the first modified 387 on Heathrow infrastructure in the autumn at present, for a phased introduction over Christmas and into the New Year. “Classic” 387 compatibility testing for gauging, platform stepping etc etc is happening under special possession arrangements already - with 2 nights testing having already taken place.
For wider GWML fitting of the infrastructure element, NR are evaluating two options - either a two phase approach with phase one next year between Stockley and Acton the second phase coinciding with remodelling at Old Oak for the proposed new station; or a Big Bang upgrade of Stockley to Paddington in one hit next year with a slight more disruptive possession plan and Just modify the installation as Old Oak is built. West of Stockley there is no firm plans at present.
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