Careless season ticket expiry, Trainline app, and angry guards!

ticketbuyer · 28 Jun 2019

I wanted to get people's thoughts on something that happened to me recently. I got off the train at Manchester Piccadilly and proceeded to go past the Northern ticket guards (I travelled on Transpennine) as usual with my season ticket out but the lady pulled me back and highlighted it expired the day before. Genuine mistake, whether that's relevant or not, I didn't realise till that moment it had expired or didn't realise the date or both. So I said oh ok I'll go and renew it now, to which she replied no you need to buy a ticket, so I got my phone out and said ok I'll buy one now (I always use the Trainline app over ticket machines e.g. on days when I don't have time to renew my season ticket) and started to buy one on my phone. She did not like this and said you have to buy one at the desk as you can't buy on the app after you board, I'd already started the process, there was a queue at the desk and I didn't see the point, by this time I was pretty much done buying it.

So then there was this odd stalemate where I had a ticket and started to walk through, one of the guys half tried to block me but then didn't quite and finally one of them told me he'd get me on the way back later. I assume if there was police officers there or revenue officers it would have escalated differently. This all happened in like 10 seconds.

I guess my question is, what is the legitimacy of buying a ticket on the app like that? Transpennines common sense policy states people without a ticket need to buy one on the spot, which I did. I assume Northern wanted to direct me to their desk so they could issue me a penalty. My wider question is about how I should expect Northern to deal with this (if indeed they do anything such as accost me at the station at a later date) when it was a genuine mistake that was ratified immediately? I've seen a lot of dispute threads on here talk about people giving the wrong name and address or stating the wrong station etc. I don't deny it was against the rules what I did and, but it was a genuine mistake from somebody who renews their season ticket every month or buys on the Trainline app when they don't have time to renew in the morning... mainly because I can't be doing with the Northern rail stasi, it's easier to just pay, I'd never actively try to avoid it for that reason alone.

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ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
I wanted to get people's thoughts on something that happened to me recently. I got off the train at Manchester Piccadilly and proceeded to go past the Northern ticket guards (I travelled on Transpennine) as usual with my season ticket out but the lady pulled me back and highlighted it expired the day before. Genuine mistake, whether that's relevant or not, I didn't realise till that moment it had expired or didn't realise the date or both. So I said oh ok I'll go and renew it now, to which she replied no you need to buy a ticket, so I got my phone out and said ok I'll buy one now (I always use the Trainline app over ticket machines e.g. on days when I don't have time to renew my season ticket) and started to buy one on my phone. She did not like this and said you have to buy one at the desk as you can't buy on the app after you board, I'd already started the process, there was a queue at the desk and I didn't see the point, by this time I was pretty much done buying it.

So then there was this odd stalemate where I had a ticket and started to walk through, one of the guys half tried to block me but then didn't quite and finally one of them told me he'd get me on the way back later. I assume if there was police officers there or revenue officers it would have escalated differently. This all happened in like 10 seconds.

I guess my question is, what is the legitimacy of buying a ticket on the app like that? Transpennines common sense policy states people without a ticket need to buy one on the spot, which I did. I assume Northern wanted to direct me to their desk so they could issue me a penalty. My wider question is about how I should expect Northern to deal with this (if indeed they do anything such as accost me at the station at a later date) when it was a genuine mistake that was ratified immediately? I've seen a lot of dispute threads on here talk about people giving the wrong name and address or stating the wrong station etc. I don't deny it was against the rules what I did and, but it was a genuine mistake from somebody who renews their season ticket every month or buys on the Trainline app when they don't have time to renew in the morning... mainly because I can't be doing with the Northern rail stasi, it's easier to just pay, I'd never actively try to avoid it for that reason alone.

If there were the facilities to obtain a ticket before you reached the manned barriers at Piccadilly then you should have bought a ticket at the earliest opportunity. If your origin station had ticketing facilities then you committed an offence in boarding without a ticket. Furthermore, you were under an obligation to pay your fare, or to give your name and address if asked to do so by the barrier staff. I don't think that using an app to buy a ticket is considered paying your fare within the definition of the relevant Act (Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889), if the staff have asked you to go to a specific desk and you refuse to do so.

I don't think anything can really be done about it after-the-fact, because you could simply deny that anything ever happened, but it's certainly not a good move on your part. In future I'd strongly recommend setting up a reminder to buy your season ticket each month - or better still, use a service like Commuter Club to get an annual ticket that you pay for monthly (meaning you have the additional benefit of only paying the monthly rate for 11 out of 12 months in the year).

westcoaster · 28 Jun 2019

Could the mobile ticket be refunded after leaving the station, i.e not used so the staff want you to buy a physical ticket.

ticketbuyer · 28 Jun 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If there were the facilities to obtain a ticket before you reached the manned barriers at Piccadilly then you should have bought a ticket at the earliest opportunity. If your origin station had ticketing facilities then you committed an offence in boarding without a ticket. Furthermore, you were under an obligation to pay your fare, or to give your name and address if asked to do so by the barrier staff. I don't think that using an app to buy a ticket is considered paying your fare within the definition of the relevant Act (Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889), if the staff have asked you to go to a specific desk and you refuse to do so.

I don't think anything can really be done about it after-the-fact, because you could simply deny that anything ever happened, but it's certainly not a good move on your part. In future I'd strongly recommend setting up a reminder to buy your season ticket each month - or better still, use a service like Commuter Club to get an annual ticket that you pay for monthly (meaning you have the additional benefit of only paying the monthly rate for 11 out of 12 months in the year).

I'd decided I needed to set up a reminder of expiry whenever I renew but wasn't aware of that Commuter Club, cheers for the pointer.

westcoaster said:
Could the mobile ticket be refunded after leaving the station, i.e not used so the staff want you to buy a physical ticket.

Perhaps, but had I bought it 10 minutes earlier it'd have been perfectly valid? I'm not actually sure how they enforce single use of Trainline tickets. In terms of refunds I reckon the Trainline probably don't issue them for day singles or returns, but again not sure.

RPOMan · 28 Jun 2019

westcoaster said:
Could the mobile ticket be refunded after leaving the station, i.e not used so the staff want you to buy a physical ticket.

Trainline (if bought there) tickets usually refund if not collected within a certain period of time.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
Perhaps, but had I bought it 10 minutes earlier it'd have been perfectly valid? I'm not actually sure how they enforce single use of Trainline tickets. In terms of refunds I reckon the Trainline probably don't issue them for day singles or returns, but again not sure.

For those members of barrier staff who consider this an acceptable resolution, I would suspect they require you to activate the ticket. This means that the retailer will then not give you a refund (unless you fraudulently claim there was disruption and you decided not to travel).

Haywain · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
I'd decided I needed to set up a reminder of expiry whenever I renew but wasn't aware of that Commuter Club, cheers for the pointer.

Buying an annual ticket also offers a saving over weekly or monthly tickets, because the most you actually pay for is 40 weeks. You'd pay up front but likely have greater savings than from Commuter Club.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

Haywain said:
Buying an annual ticket also offers a saving over weekly or monthly tickets, because the most you actually pay for is 40 weeks. You'd pay up front but likely have greater savings than from Commuter Club.

I agree - unfortunately it is not within the reach of everyone to pay for an annual season ticket upfront, so services like Commuter Club present a "next best option" in terms of cost and convenience. Of course, there is always the alternative of putting an annual season ticket on a 0% credit card and paying it off in 12 instalments, but again that isn't an option available to everyone (on the grounds of their credit history).

startingaparty · 28 Jun 2019

I did this the other day! I got on the train then realised I had not renewed my season ticket that morning! So, I bought a single from Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly on the Northern App before I got to the RPIs at the doors and they let me through fine. I then went straight to the ticket machine and bought my usual season ticket. It saved me £20 at least!

gazthomas · 28 Jun 2019

While a legitimate error the reality is you didn't have a valid ticket for travel

some bloke · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
somebody who...buys on the Trainline app when they don't have time

ticketbuyer said:
I'm not actually sure how they enforce single use of Trainline tickets.

To be clear, did you show them the activated ticket?

ticketbuyer · 28 Jun 2019

some bloke said:
To be clear, did you show them the activated ticket?

Absolutely yeh. I've since realised how they enforce it is via the QR code. I guess once scanned it becomes inactive. They were so hell bent on sending me to the desk though that I don't think it crossed their minds. I think I said why do I need to go to the desk when this is a valid ticket (whilst showing it) and then held it up clear to see (which is all you do with paper tickets anyway) as I walked past so I definitely shown it.

Mathew S · 28 Jun 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I agree - unfortunately it is not within the reach of everyone to pay for an annual season ticket upfront, so services like Commuter Club present a "next best option" in terms of cost and convenience. Of course, there is always the alternative of putting an annual season ticket on a 0% credit card and paying it off in 12 instalments, but again that isn't an option available to everyone (on the grounds of their credit history).

It's off topic, but if you can't get a credit card you also won't be getting a loan from Commuter Club (which is how that company works). They can, and do, turn down customers with below average credit ratings.

some bloke · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
I've since realised how they enforce it is via the QR code.

And by changing colour, according to this:
https://www.thetrainline.com/information/mobile-tickets

snail · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
Transpennines common sense policy states people without a ticket need to buy one on the spot, which I did.

Where does it say that? Careless or not, you didn't have a valid ticket and had passed opportunities to buy one.

PS Don't use Trainline. You can get the same tickets from the TPE or Northern apps without paying a booking fee.

mmh · 28 Jun 2019

I think I'd be hesitant to describe staff as Stasi because they've spotted an out of date season. Being asked to buy a single ticket seems quite a reasonable outcome, and far more accommodating than happens in many cases reported here!

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

Mathew S said:
It's off topic, but if you can't get a credit card you also won't be getting a loan from Commuter Club (which is how that company works). They can, and do, turn down customers with below average credit ratings.

True, but there is a chance that some people might be eligible for one but not the other, so both are worth mentioning as options.

ticketbuyer · 28 Jun 2019

snail said:
Where does it say that? Careless or not, you didn't have a valid ticket and had passed opportunities to buy one.

PS Don't use Trainline. You can get the same tickets from the TPE or Northern apps without paying a booking fee.

I won't link to the PDF but if you find it on their site (search transpennine common sense policy) it says "If you can’t pay the fare on the spot, a member of staff will give you an Unpaid Fare Notice. This is not a penalty or a fine" and they generally talk about when it's a genuine mistake etc. Seems they take a much more relaxed approach than Northern. Good tip on the booking fee though, didn't know that!

mmh said:
I think I'd be hesitant to describe staff as Stasi because they've spotted an out of date season. Being asked to buy a single ticket seems quite a reasonable outcome, and far more accommodating than happens in many cases reported here!

Well its based on past experiences and watching them deal with other passengers every day. I've complained before about an incident not directly related to me just because they're so heavy handed. Similar stuff has been in the news about them. I'm also suspecting they didn't want me to buy a ticket at all they wanted me to go to their desk. I've seen them do it to passengers all the time, they go to the desk and then you see people arguing their case. Happens weekly pretty much

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

mmh said:
Being asked to buy a single ticket seems quite a reasonable outcome, and far more accommodating than happens in many cases reported here!

We know from previous threads that it's not the case that you just get asked to buy a new ticket. You get asked to buy a new ticket, and then you get pulled over to have your details taken for prosecution. That, to me, is the ultimate form of "double dipping" and it's a practice that I don't think is fair.

some bloke · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
the QR code. I guess once scanned it becomes inactive.

I'm not sure how that would work unless scanning machines in different locations were linked up, since there isn't an obvious way that people's devices could register the scan. Also, human checks wouldn't achieve that.

It may seem more likely to work by time after activation (perhaps the end of the railway day?).

mmh · 28 Jun 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
We know from previous threads that it's not the case that you just get asked to buy a new ticket. You get asked to buy a new ticket, and then you get pulled over to have your details taken for prosecution. That, to me, is the ultimate form of "double dipping" and it's a practice that I don't think is fair.

I agree, when that happens it's arguable it's unfair. It didn't however happen here.

radamfi · 28 Jun 2019

Another "North-South divide" issue. In London, if you arrive at the barrier without a ticket, because your season expired or for any other reason, you could just tap in with your contactless card and just pay a maximum fare.

6Gman · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
I don't deny it was against the rules what I did and, but it was a genuine mistake from somebody who renews their season ticket every month or buys on the Trainline app when they don't have time to renew in the morning... mainly because I can't be doing with the Northern rail stasi, it's easier to just pay, I'd never actively try to avoid it for that reason alone.

I don't normally have much time for the Northern revenue staff from poor past experience but I honestly can't see that they did anything wrong here.

You didn't have a valid ticket. Deciding on how to deal with that is their choice, not yours.

Instead of doing as requested you chose to do something different.

Why not just co-operate. After all, it was you who was in error.

6Gman · 28 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
Another "North-South divide" issue. In London, if you arrive at the barrier without a ticket, because your season expired or for any other reason, you could just tap in with your contactless card and just pay a maximum fare.

Doesn't that rather depend on where you've come from?

radamfi · 28 Jun 2019

6Gman said:
Doesn't that rather depend on where you've come from?

It would presumably work on any ticket gates which accept contactless. So maybe not gates only serving trains that originate outside the Oyster area.

ticketbuyer · 28 Jun 2019

6Gman said:
I don't normally have much time for the Northern revenue staff from poor past experience but I honestly can't see that they did anything wrong here.

You didn't have a valid ticket. Deciding on how to deal with that is their choice, not yours.

Instead of doing as requested you chose to do something different.

Why not just co-operate. After all, it was you who was in error.

I'm not really saying they did anything wrong. I was more asking about the situation with buying on the app. I did buy a ticket and realistically I don't believe they truly wanted me to go to their desk just to buy a ticket as I've alluded to already. My general negative comments about Northern come from years of experience not just today. I suppose partly why I used the app, and always do, is because my default stance is to avoid contact with Northern staff at all costs.

I do find the whole thing a bit ridiculous though. I've seen someone on here compare not buying a ticket to stealing from a shop. But if you walked out of a shop without paying for a something by mistake and it was genuine you'd just be asked to come in and pay (Northern don't do this they fine and/or take you to court and are intimidating about it) , not prosecuted and fined. I guess it's a hard balance between the genuine people and the fare dodgers but I think Northern have it wrong.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
Another "North-South divide" issue. In London, if you arrive at the barrier without a ticket, because your season expired or for any other reason, you could just tap in with your contactless card and just pay a maximum fare.

I think that's certainly an extraordinarily positive way of thinking about it, to say the least!

In London the commuter TOCs have half-professional teams of RPIs who don't just do the usual Northern barrier sting but who do undercover operations. The north definitely isn't seeing it any better than the south here!

radamfi · 28 Jun 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I think that's certainly an extraordinarily positive way of thinking about it, to say the least!

In London the commuter TOCs have half-professional teams of RPIs who don't just do the usual Northern barrier sting but who do undercover operations. The north definitely isn't seeing it any better than the south here!

If you get too many incomplete journeys, your card gets blocked, so this is really a "get out of jail" card for one-off occasions (for example because your season expired) and cannot be used for persistent fare dodging. If the OP had arrived at London Victoria rather than Manchester Piccadilly and used contactless to exit the gate, this thread would not exist.

some bloke · 28 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
If the OP had arrived at London Victoria rather than Manchester Piccadilly and used contactless to exit the gate, this thread would not exist.

Given some assumptions including that he had known to use it. But he first presented the out-of-date season ticket. Using contactless in front of staff after they spotted that might have brought other consequences.

Hadders · 28 Jun 2019

ticketbuyer said:
I'm not really saying they did anything wrong. I was more asking about the situation with buying on the app. I did buy a ticket and realistically I don't believe they truly wanted me to go to their desk just to buy a ticket as I've alluded to already. My general negative comments about Northern come from years of experience not just today. I suppose partly why I used the app, and always do, is because my default stance is to avoid contact with Northern staff at all costs.

I do find the whole thing a bit ridiculous though. I've seen someone on here compare not buying a ticket to stealing from a shop. But if you walked out of a shop without paying for a something by mistake and it was genuine you'd just be asked to come in and pay (Northern don't do this they fine and/or take you to court and are intimidating about it) , not prosecuted and fined. I guess it's a hard balance between the genuine people and the fare dodgers but I think Northern have it wrong.

I don't think they wanted you to go to the desk to buy a ticket. You didn't have a valid ticket so they'd have been collecting your details for a report to be submitted to their prosecutions department.

Careless season ticket expiry, Trainline app, and angry guards!

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