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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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samuelmorris

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How many 170s do scotrail have exactly??

you really think it would be enough for EMR to start binning the 156/3s??



So the plan is for WMR to gain more 172s for long term keep then lose 4 170s. Then whatever is left goes to EMR??
Scotrail have 39 170s I think. There's certainly enough there, but again, this is only in response to a suggestion from a poster above. I've no idea how EMR are planning on getting the numbers up to replace every Sprinter without ordering any new DMUs. As I said in my previous post, replacing 170s with 158s represents a loss of capacity, so I can't see them being keen to do this, but then I don't have any better ideas where the extra units will come from!
 
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43096

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Scotrail have 39 170s I think. There's certainly enough there, but again, this is only in response to a suggestion from a poster above. I've no idea how EMR are planning on getting the numbers up to replace every Sprinter without ordering any new DMUs. As I said in my previous post, replacing 170s with 158s represents a loss of capacity, so I can't see them being keen to do this, but then I don't have any better ideas where the extra units will come from!
ScotRail do indeed have 39 170s, of which 5 are to transfer to EMR in August, so 34 long-term sets.

In terms of EMR fleet replacement, the current EMT "local trains for local people" fleet is:
21 x 153 (21 vehicles)
15 x 156 (30 vehicles)
26 x 158 (52 vehicles)
Total of 103 vehicles. Of these, roughly 12 x Class 158 sets are needed for the Nottingham-Liverpool section, assuming all trains are pairs, so say 14 sets including maintenance cover. That means 75 vehicles need replacing.

Obviously priority has to be given to replacing the 153s as these are not/are not being PRM modified. Along with the 5 x 170s (170416-420) from ScotRail, transfer of the nine 156s from Greater Anglia (which are PRM modified) would enable replacement (33 vehicles replace 21). This would give an EMR PRM compliant fleet of:
24 x 156 (48 vehicles)
12 x 158 (24 vehicles)
5 x 170 (15 vehicles)

For completing the rest of the fleet replacement, West Mids have 17 x 2-car and 6 x 3-car 170s available once the new stock arrives = total of 52 cars. But EMR would have 72 156/158 cars to replace in this scenario. Even if you go "like for like" with 153 replacement and assume it's 21 156/170 cars in, there is still a shortfall of 8 vehicles even if all the West Mids 170s transfer (75 cars to replace, 15 in ex-ScotRail, 52 from West Mids).

It will be interesting to see how this works out. Personally, I'd do a deal between DfT, GTR, Porterbrook and Eversholt that sees the 171s move to EMR, being back filled by more 769 conversions.
 

samuelmorris

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A 171 swap for 769s seems like a sensible idea (assuming they can get the third-rail part of the 769s working, but I assume that'll be the easy bit). Given the potential 'downgrade' issue, however, I wonder if it might be more likely the 769s come up to EMR instead. Whether they qualify as suitable replacements for 156s is up for debate, though. Could there also be any length issues with using them?
 

RealTrains07

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A 171 swap for 769s seems like a sensible idea (assuming they can get the third-rail part of the 769s working, but I assume that'll be the easy bit). Given the potential 'downgrade' issue, however, I wonder if it might be more likely the 769s come up to EMR instead. Whether they qualify as suitable replacements for 156s is up for debate, though. Could there also be any length issues with using them?
Its also reliability. Northern passengers have complained about 319s being unreliable on some routes.

I feel 319 are a downgrade especially since it would require a further wait for bi mode transformation since TfW and northern already have 769s on order

Long term 170/171 are in my opinion a better solution for EMR
 

samuelmorris

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Its also reliability. Northern passengers have complained about 319s being unreliable on some routes.

I feel 319 are a downgrade especially since it would require a further wait for bi mode transformation since TfW and northern already have 769s on order

Long term 170/171 are in my opinion a better solution for EMR
They will of course be a better option for EMR - it's a question of whether moving the 171s away from Southern is deemed acceptable.
 

jw

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I'd be tempted to order a new fleet for the CrossCountry regional routes and take their Turbostars for East Midlands.

Ideally West Mids would boost their CAF DMU order and take over the shorter CrossCountry Nottingham/Leicester routes, and also order extra for the longer CrossCountry regional routes at the same time. I believe Stansted Airport limits the DMU length to 4 cars, but I'm unsure about Cardiff to Nottingham.
 

RealTrains07

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I'd be tempted to order a new fleet for the CrossCountry regional routes and take their Turbostars for East Midlands.

Ideally West Mids would boost their CAF DMU order and take over the shorter CrossCountry Nottingham/Leicester routes, and also order extra for the longer CrossCountry regional routes at the same time. I believe Stansted Airport limits the DMU length to 4 cars, but I'm unsure about Cardiff to Nottingham.
Surely it would make sense for XC to take on the 222s from EMR to boost their long distance routes as their current stock is overcrowded most days
 

hwl

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43096 said:
It will be interesting to see how this works out. Personally, I'd do a deal between DfT, GTR, Porterbrook and Eversholt that sees the 171s move to EMR, being back filled by more 769 conversions.

The Oxted Tunnel* happens to be one of the current gauge defining structures on the network...
20m MK3 bodyshells don't fit through (yes that bad...) which was a significant influence on Adtranz Electrostar and turbostar design criteria.

So how are 769s going to get to through the Oxted tunnel?


* a nice set of reverse curves so passing trains clobber each other unless they are suitably thin and ends tapered.

They would also need SDO fitting and the power supply on the third rail bit sorting as it maxed out.

A tad unlikely perhaps?
 

Qwerty133

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ScotRail do indeed have 39 170s, of which 5 are to transfer to EMR in August, so 34 long-term sets.

In terms of EMR fleet replacement, the current EMT "local trains for local people" fleet is:
21 x 153 (21 vehicles)
15 x 156 (30 vehicles)
26 x 158 (52 vehicles)
Total of 103 vehicles. Of these, roughly 12 x Class 158 sets are needed for the Nottingham-Liverpool section, assuming all trains are pairs, so say 14 sets including maintenance cover. That means 75 vehicles need replacing.

Obviously priority has to be given to replacing the 153s as these are not/are not being PRM modified. Along with the 5 x 170s (170416-420) from ScotRail, transfer of the nine 156s from Greater Anglia (which are PRM modified) would enable replacement (33 vehicles replace 21). This would give an EMR PRM compliant fleet of:
24 x 156 (48 vehicles)
12 x 158 (24 vehicles)
5 x 170 (15 vehicles)

For completing the rest of the fleet replacement, West Mids have 17 x 2-car and 6 x 3-car 170s available once the new stock arrives = total of 52 cars. But EMR would have 72 156/158 cars to replace in this scenario. Even if you go "like for like" with 153 replacement and assume it's 21 156/170 cars in, there is still a shortfall of 8 vehicles even if all the West Mids 170s transfer (75 cars to replace, 15 in ex-ScotRail, 52 from West Mids).

It will be interesting to see how this works out. Personally, I'd do a deal between DfT, GTR, Porterbrook and Eversholt that sees the 171s move to EMR, being back filled by more 769 conversions.
There is no point in using simplistic vehicle numbers as the determinants of what is needed. Away from the Nottingham-Liverpool services, there is relatively little full-day multiple unit working meaning that it is almost certain that an increase in vehicle numbers (if not unit numbers) will be required to replace the current fleet considering there is no PRM 1 coach units available and the current levels of singular 153 workings. Neither the Southern or West Mids units provide like for like vehicle replacement let alone a sufficient number of units to run all allocated services so it is likely that a combination of both fleets would be necessary unless some other 170s were found.
 

ashworth

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So the plan is for WMR to gain more 172s for long term keep then lose 4 170s. Then whatever is left goes to EMR??

That last sentence ‘Whatever is left goes to EMR’ sounds a bit like what happened in 2007 when EMT took over from Central Trains. The West Midlands and XC had all the newer 170’s and EMT was left with a terrible selection of castoffs from all over the country. Some were in appalling condition. Now the West Midlands are getting yet more new trains and The East Midlands 12 years on can have their old trains back. What condition are some of these 170’s in especially those which have seen heavy use in Scotland up and down the Highland Main Line. Before any refurbishment will the 170’’s actually feel like a downgrade from EMT’s well cared for 156/158’s and may actually look like older trains than those they are replacing.
 

samuelmorris

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That last sentence ‘Whatever is left goes to EMR’ sounds a bit like what happened in 2007 when EMT took over from Central Trains. The West Midlands and XC had all the newer 170’s and EMT was left with a terrible selection of castoffs from all over the country. Some were in appalling condition. Now the West Midlands are getting yet more new trains and The East Midlands 12 years on can have their old trains back. What condition are some of these 170’s in especially those which have seen heavy use in Scotland up and down the Highland Main Line. Before any refurbishment will the 170’’s actually feel like a downgrade from EMT’s well cared for 156/158’s and may actually look like older trains than those they are replacing.
Quite possibly. The inbound units will presumably be tidied up, but for the moment yes it's conceivable that they may be in worse condition than what they replaced. That said, however, this is only a potential issue for the 158s. I think it would be fair to say 170s would be a sizeable upgrade on 156s and 153s.
 

43096

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There is no point in using simplistic vehicle numbers as the determinants of what is needed. Away from the Nottingham-Liverpool services, there is relatively little full-day multiple unit working meaning that it is almost certain that an increase in vehicle numbers (if not unit numbers) will be required to replace the current fleet considering there is no PRM 1 coach units available and the current levels of singular 153 workings. Neither the Southern or West Mids units provide like for like vehicle replacement let alone a sufficient number of units to run all allocated services so it is likely that a combination of both fleets would be necessary unless some other 170s were found.
Agreed - that was the conclusion I was coming to. I don't have the diagrams so don't know what level of working there is of pairs of 153s or 153+156/158 combinations. Obviously the former can be replaced by a 156 and the latter by a 170 with the same number of cars. With 9 x GA 156s and 5 x ScR 170s that gives 14 extra sets to replace 21 x 153. That feels at best to be the bare minimum number of sets they could get away with for the immediate need to replace the non-PRM 153s.
 

Prestige15

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How many 170s do scotrail have exactly??

you really think it would be enough for EMR to start binning the 156/3s??

,

Scotrail currently has 39 170's. That is more than enough to replace 153/6. Chances are the 'Modern DMU' (that EMR has mention) could make is way over would be 175 but some has speculate that the 175 could even move to scotail (highlands), And theres also 21 class 185's that could possibly move over to EMR,
Time will tell but my money is still firmly on the 175 for EMR.
 

whhistle

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Not sure why people are suggesting things that aren't really going to happen.
I'll post this in three sections. It does not go into unit length details, but I suspect that won't really matter.

Section 1: Background Info:
  • It's reported that Scotrail are planning on getting rid of only 5 of their 170s.

  • Abellio have said EMR will end up with THREE types of train by 2022(ish!):
    360s, new bi-mode, (heavily presumed, but not absolutely confirmed (?)) 170s.
    This means getting the 769s, 171s, 185s - not going to happen.

  • Difficult to understand as Wikipedia isn't entirely clear but:
    A Class 158 has up to 207 seats per train.
    A Class 170 has up to 200 per train.

  • East Midlands have 62 sprinter (153+156+158) units that need replacing.

  • Abellio have said 153 operation will end within 6 months of August.

  • The DfT has said the Norwich - Liverpool could split, but they have not said when or how it will happen. At the moment, Abellio will be running the route as normal.



Section 2: Units that operators have, that will have no home soon:
Stock replacement plans mean that:
  • West Midlands will provide 23 Class 170s spare units.

  • Scotrail will provide 5 Class 170s spare units.

  • Greater Anglia will provide 9 Class 156 spare units.
    Read that TfW have dibbs on GA's 170s, so not used them in this plan.



Section 3: A Credible Plan:
Total Number of 170s from WMT + Scotrail: 28.
Total Number of 170s now required for EMR: 34.

Taking the (21x)153s out of the equation means EMR has 41 sprinters.
Add the Anglia 156s (which could help cover the quick 153 replacement) gives a total of 50 sprinter units at EMR.
  • Send ALL those sprinters to Scotrail to swap with the 34 Class 170s.
    This is an exact number match for what EMR needs.

  • Scotrail gets 16 extra sprinter units
    Can be used to strengthen/lengthen services.

  • This involves Abellio companies only
    May make things easier / quicker.

  • However, it means a potential downgrade of the Norwich - Liverpool service
    If that is formed of 4 coaches you'd get less seats by using a 3-car 170 or even 2x2-car. But could be mitigated by keeping the 158s on that service for as long as possible.

Cross Country aren't going to give their 170s up without a replacement that can run into Stansted (22x cannot!).
Someone suggested Class 175s but I can't see XC taking on a fleet of units with very questionable reliablity and that don't offer much of an upgrade to their current trains.

I haven't seen anywhere suggesting Northern are wanting to give their 170s up, although as someone else said, perhaps they should and ordering more 195s, giving them a more harmonious fleet.

Not sure where the idea of getting 171s has come from?
Can anyone point me to where Southern have said they're looking to get rid of them?


The gaping hole is obviously the 21 x 153 units EMR currently has and how they plan to replace all those. I wonder if EMR would be keen to split the Norwich route sooner but keep all the stock currently run on that route (would the soon to be homeless 185s be suitable for this route?).
Half a route but all the stock means they'd have extra to cover for binning off the 153s.

I could be completely wide of the mark and the industry could throw up some real corkers. But based on what we know so far that companies have said they plan to do, this is the only way it can happen.
 
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samuelmorris

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Surely the 207 seats figure is for a 3-car 158 which EMT don't have?

Swapping 170s from Scotrail would cover the 'single type of DMU' angle that is widely predicted, but replacing almost all of Scotrail's 3-car 170s with 2-car Sprinters sounds very problematic, both for public perception and for capacity.
 

cactustwirly

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Not sure why people are suggesting things that aren't really workable.
I'll post this in three sections. It does not go into unit length details, but I suspect that won't really matter.

Section 1: Background Info:
It's reported that Scotrail are planning on only getting rid of 5 of their 170s.

Abellio have said EMR will end up with THREE types of train - 360s, new bi-mode, (heavily presumed, but not absolutely confirmed (?)) 170s.
Difficult to understand as Wikipedia isn't entirely clear.

  • A Class 158 has a up to 207 seats per train.
    A Class 170 has up to 200 per train.
    This means a 158 has more seats than a 170.

  • Abellio have said 153 operation will end within 6 months of August.

  • The DfT has said the Norwich - Liverpool could split, but they have not said when or how it will happen. At the moment, Abellio will be running the route as normal.



Section 2: Units that operators have, that will have no home soon:
East Midlands have 62 sprinter units that need replacing.

Stock replacement plans mean that:
  • West Midlands will provide 23 Class 170s spare units.

  • Scotrail will provide 5 Class 170s spare units.

  • Greater Anglia will provide 9 Class 156 spare units.



Section 3: A Credible Plan:
Total Number of 170s from WMT + Scotrail: 28.
Total Number of 170s now required for EMR: 34.

Taking the (21x)153s out of the equation means EMR has 41 sprinters.
Add the Anglia 156s (which could help cover the quick 153 replacement) gives a total of 50 sprinter units at EMR.

  • Send ALL those sprinters to Scotrail to swap with the 34 Class 170s.

  • This is an exact number match for what EMR needs.

  • This means that Scotrail get 16 extra sprinter units, which can be used to strengthen/lengthen services.

  • This involves Abellio companies only, which may make things easier.

  • However, it means a potential downgrade of the Norwich - Liverpool service if that is formed of 4 coaches (less seats), but could be mitigated by keeping the 158s on that service for as long as possible.

Cross Country aren't going to give their 170s up without a replacement that can run to Stansted.
Someone suggested Class 175s but I can't see XC taking on a fleet of questionable reliablity units that don't offer much of an upgrade to their current trains.

Transport for Wales have already put dibbs on the Greater Anglia 170s.

Northern aren't going to give their 170s up, although perhaps they should, eventually after ordering more 195s.



Unless someone else can think of a way of getting enough 170s to EMR without including options that aren't likely, this is the strongest option that I can see so far.[/b]

Who says that ScotRail would take all the sprinters?
 

whhistle

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Ideally West Mids would boost their CAF DMU order and take over the shorter CrossCountry Nottingham/Leicester routes, and also order extra for the longer CrossCountry regional routes at the same time.
They already want to take over the Leicester - Birmingham route.
The ITT for the East Midlands explicitly said EMR would not be permitted to run into/out of New Street.
Not sure how many units this route requires though as they intermingle with the Nottingham - Cardiff and Birmingham - Stanstead routes.
EMR aim to have all their fleet in order by 2022. WMT could have taken over the local route, ordered new CAF units and released the 170s they'd inherit from XC for the local route by then.
 

Aictos

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I'd be tempted to order a new fleet for the CrossCountry regional routes and take their Turbostars for East Midlands.

Ideally West Mids would boost their CAF DMU order and take over the shorter CrossCountry Nottingham/Leicester routes, and also order extra for the longer CrossCountry regional routes at the same time. I believe Stansted Airport limits the DMU length to 4 cars, but I'm unsure about Cardiff to Nottingham.

The issue with the XC Class 170s is they interwork so a 2 car could work a Stansted to Birmingham then work a service to Nottingham etc..

A far better idea would be to standardise the fleet so replace the entire Class 170 fleet with 4 car Class 196s with the ex XC 170s moving to EMR.
 

43096

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Not sure why people are suggesting things that aren't really going to happen.
So you go on to do exactly that!
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'll post this in three sections. It does not go into unit length details, but I suspect that won't really matter.

Section 1: Background Info:
It's reported that Scotrail are planning on getting rid of only 5 of their 170s.

Abellio have said EMR will end up with THREE types of train by 2022(ish!) - 360s, new bi-mode, (heavily presumed, but not absolutely confirmed (?)) 170s.
This means getting the 769s, 171s, 185s - not going to happen.

Difficult to understand as Wikipedia isn't entirely clear but:
  • A Class 158 has up to 207 seats per train.
    A Class 170 has up to 200 per train.
    This means a 158 has more seats than a 170.

  • Abellio have said 153 operation will end within 6 months of August.

  • The DfT has said the Norwich - Liverpool could split, but they have not said when or how it will happen. At the moment, Abellio will be running the route as normal.

Section 2: Units that operators have, that will have no home soon:
East Midlands have 62 sprinter units that need replacing.

Stock replacement plans mean that:
  • West Midlands will provide 23 Class 170s spare units.

  • Scotrail will provide 5 Class 170s spare units.

  • Greater Anglia will provide 9 Class 156 spare units.

Section 3: A Credible Plan:
Total Number of 170s from WMT + Scotrail: 28.
Total Number of 170s now required for EMR: 34.

Taking the (21x)153s out of the equation means EMR has 41 sprinters.
Add the Anglia 156s (which could help cover the quick 153 replacement) gives a total of 50 sprinter units at EMR.

  • Send ALL those sprinters to Scotrail to swap with the 34 Class 170s.
    This is an exact number match for what EMR needs.

  • Scotrail gets 16 extra sprinter units
    Can be used to strengthen/lengthen services.

  • This involves Abellio companies only
    May make things easier / quicker.

  • However, it means a potential downgrade of the Norwich - Liverpool service
    If that is formed of 4 coaches (less seats), but could be mitigated by keeping the 158s on that service for as long as possible.

Cross Country aren't going to give their 170s up without a replacement that can run to Stansted.
Someone suggested Class 175s but I can't see XC taking on a fleet of questionable reliablity units that don't offer much of an upgrade to their current trains.

Transport for Wales have already put dibbs on the Greater Anglia 170s.

Northern aren't going to give their 170s up, although perhaps they should, eventually after ordering more 195s.

Not sure where the idea of getting 171s has come from?
Can anyone point me to where Southern have said they're looking to get rid of them?


The gaping hole is obviously the 21 x 153 units EMR currently has and how they plan to replace all those. But I wonder if EMR would be keen to split the Norwich route but keep all the stock it currently has for it. Half a route but all the stock means they'd have extra to cover for binning off the 153s.


Unless someone else can think of a way of getting enough 170s to EMR without including options that aren't likely, this is the strongest option that I can see so far.
What makes you think ScotRail will want EMR's cast offs? It might be a nice, neat solution in your armchair since both are Abellio franchises, but I doubt Transport Scotland will be keen given the money spent on the 170s. Such moves have been tried before many years ago (IIRC 156s going to ScotRail with 158s heading south) and it was blocked because of the use of Scottish Government funds to refurbish the 158s. I don't see how it would be approved.
 

samuelmorris

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The issue with the XC Class 170s is they interwork so a 2 car could work a Stansted to Birmingham then work a service to Nottingham etc..

A far better idea would be to standardise the fleet so replace the entire Class 170 fleet with 4 car Class 196s with the ex XC 170s moving to EMR.
I like that idea, but it does require a different operator to acquire new stock, which is an investment on their part - I gather the XC 170s are undersized to do what they do, so it's an opportunity to increase capacity there, perhaps with 3-car 196s or maybe by coupling up 2-car units for busy times, but even so, it's still another investment in new non-bimodal DMUs, something which the DfT ought to avoid. If new stock (other than the express units) was on the cards to support EMT, they may as well have ordered some 755s to replace the Sprinters like Abellio did with GA - there'll be a good reason why that wasn't done here.
 

Qwerty133

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170s have been converted to 171s and the only difference between the 2 is the type of coupler so there is no reason why a statement saying that EMR will operate only 3 types of train couldn't include the 171s (albeit with them being converted to 170s).
If we want to discuss unlikely possibilities that come up with EMR getting about the right number of 170s (or 171s converted into 170s) how about the following:
EMT currently have 61 sprinter units, approximately 14 of which are used on Liverpool to Nottingham which may well be moved to TPE before stock replacement meaning that the target number of units is probably around 45 considering the greater reliability and longer length of units compared to the current fleet allowing for reduced multiple working and higher intensity usage.
The 5 Scotrail units seem to be almost a given meaning that around 40 units are required from elsewhere.
As the majority of EMR services are 1 or 2 coaches it may be that Abellio would prefer shorter 2 coach 170s to minimise lease payments (and even this will give significant capacity improvements over the current state). In this case one option would be for EMR to take on the 2 coach units from WMR, XC and Southern totalling 42 units (plus the 5 from Scotrail to give a fleet of 47 units made up of 42x 2 car and 5 x 3 car giving a total of 99 coaches compared to the current 73 if units for Liverpool to Nottingham are excluded). The 2 coach units from XC (13) could be freed up with the 3 coach units from WMR (6) and 4 coach units from Southern (8) giving XC a fleet of 3/4 car 170s and a capacity increase of 17 coaches.
 
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tbtc

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What makes you think ScotRail will want EMR's cast offs? It might be a nice, neat solution in your armchair since both are Abellio franchises, but I doubt Transport Scotland will be keen given the money spent on the 170s. Such moves have been tried before many years ago (IIRC 156s going to ScotRail with 158s heading south) and it was blocked because of the use of Scottish Government funds to refurbish the 158s. I don't see how it would be approved.

IIRC it was Central Trains 156s heading north in exchange for ScotRail 158s (given that ScotRail were using 158s on some relatively low speed local routes whilst CT were struggling with 156s on long distance routes (of which there were many in Central Trains days!).

Agreed re the suggestions on this thread that Southern should take the 1980s 319s (that are unsuitable for Oxted tunnels) and ScotRail should take 156s just so EMR can get some younger 170/171s...

...and XC don't need anything complicated for their ex-CT routes - 125mph stock would be a waste - just more of something like the 170s.
 

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The issue with the XC Class 170s is they interwork so a 2 car could work a Stansted to Birmingham then work a service to Nottingham etc..

A far better idea would be to standardise the fleet so replace the entire Class 170 fleet with 4 car Class 196s with the ex XC 170s moving to EMR.

I'd give all of that to WMT. It's all much more like Brum to Hereford than it is like "proper" XC.
 

43096

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IIRC it was Central Trains 156s heading north in exchange for ScotRail 158s (given that ScotRail were using 158s on some relatively low speed local routes whilst CT were struggling with 156s on long distance routes (of which there were many in Central Trains days!).
That was it! Thanks for the reminder. There was a 156 (402?) that was turned out in a base white livery after overhaul in advance of the planned swap.
 
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Certainly, 156 402 was turned out in white (with a purple roof), but wasn't it included in the swop with ONE? 156s to East Anglia, 150s to the West Midlands?

156 402 DSCN0943.JPG

Seen at Cromer on 24 June 2005.
 

43096

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Certainly, 156 402 was turned out in white (with a purple roof), but wasn't it included in the swop with ONE? 156s to East Anglia, 150s to the West Midlands?

View attachment 65066

Seen at Cromer on 24 June 2005.
Wasn't the Central/ONE swap later? The purple roof and doors were a bit of a giveaway of the ScotRail transfer plan, as that was the colour used on the National Express ScotRail livery. The fact that purple was also owner Porterbrook's colour was just coincidental.
 
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Wasn't the Central/ONE swap later? The purple roof and doors were a bit of a giveaway of the ScotRail transfer plan, as that was the colour used on the National Express ScotRail livery. The fact that purple was also owner Porterbrook's colour was just coincidental.

Not sure.

I have a photo of a class 156 (neither set or vehicle numbers visible) in full Central Trains livery and a ONE logo, also taken at Cromer on 24 June 2005, and a photo of 156 418 in full Central livery but with a National Express stripe and name, taken at Norwich on 17 June 2011; certainly, therefore, a number of 156s went from Central to East Anglia in 2005, but how this fits in with a swap between the Midlands and Scotland I can't remember.

EMT also had some 3-car 158s for a bit; these came from Northern Spirit via Central.

DSCN0828.JPG

This was working a Norwich - Liverpool service, seen at Ely on 7 December 2007; shame they didn't stay!
 

westcoaster

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Could XC 170 swap for 222. The stanstead issue could be solved by shuffleing intermediate carriages around the 222 fleet. Give xc the 222/1's and reform some /0's into 4 car units.the additional carriages could then lengthen other 222/0's.
 

krus_aragon

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Here's another wild idea, from the TfW angle:

As stated, TfW are receiving Anglia's 12 170s. These have been stated to be part of TfW's long-term fleet for West Wales, with new CAF stock on the other main lines. The 175s are due to go off lease in 2022, but the 170s are needed now to cover PRM modifications and pacer withdrawals.

If EMR really wanted Anglia/TfW's 170s, they could probably have them, if they offered something PRM-ready in exchange. It wouldn't matter much what it was, as long as they could give three years' service. Come 2022, instead of withdrawing all the 175s as planned, TfW could keep (some of) that fleet for West Wales duties, and release the ex-EMR units.

A note: the 175 fleet comprises 27 units, well more than the 12 170s that are en-route. If TfW and EMR were to do something like this, either Angel Trains will be left with half the 175s off-lease, or TfW would be looking to expand their fleet significantly compared to what they were plaining at franchise award a year ago. (There were some open access TfW applications for Swansea-Bristol and extending Cambrian-Birmingham to Coventry planned for 2020, see here. That may soak up a few extra units.)
 
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