Passenger finds himself on empty stock

Mag_seven said:

Was there not a serious incident on London Underground a few years back where someone got overcarried on empty stock and was either injured or killed trying to move from one coach to the next?

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Saperstein said:

Quite some years ago now, it happened in the Kennington Loop of if it is the one I’m thinking about.

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I believe the incident was at Liverpool St on the Central line whereby a customer died after they had fallen between cars. London Underground fitted "Inner Inter Car barriers" and "Canopy barriers" on the 1972 and 1992 stocks which are designed to prevent someone from exiting the train between the cars and also made proposals to withdraw detrainment staff for trains fitted with these barriers except for trains going into depots or sidings at the end of their service. This plan was subsequently dropped after a dispute arose over concerns of abuse and assault of train drivers and the risks of injury and distress to customers who fail to alight and get carried into reversing sidings. There is a catalogue of information on this RMT blog which is on a publicly accessible website. A workaround was put in place on the Bakerloo line whereby the driver will close the doors from the cab and station staff will physically check the train by looking into the windows from the platform; other lines still have the driver or platform staff physically checking the train and closing the doors by operating a button car by car.

I do recall hearing of an incident on Kennington loop but not sure what or when it was. Interestingly enough, Kennington loop is one location where trains are not detrained and are not checked by platform staff either.

Saperstein said:

Not if it carries on in Passenger service no.

IME it trains usually terminate in the same platform they depart from on the next working, is there anywhere where this is not the case?

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Bank on the DLR stands out as an obvious one. I have sometimes idly wondered what it'd be like to remain on the train as it reverses between platforms 9 and 10. But I suspect it wouldn't be possible, since as far as I can see whenever I've arrived there on a train, staff do seem to check trains before they leave the platform to do their reverse.

Saperstein said:

At some bigger stations they don’t advertise the platform until a few minutes before departure, don’t know why, then you get pax pelting down the ramps to the platform to board the train, (London Euston I’m looking at you!).

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That will be so cleaning etc. staff can get the train ready and clean the train without having to work around hundreds of passengers! It is annoying though when you're at Euston waiting to board.

Saperstein said:

IME it trains usually terminate in the same platform they depart from on the next working, is there anywhere where this is not the case?

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There are probably quite a few stations where terminating trains routinely change platforms as ECS before restarting. Some examples in the north-west are Clitheroe, Hazel Grove, Wigan Wallgate and Manchester Piccadilly platforms 13/14 (less often since May). It is also increasingly frequent at Paignton with the new timetable. Often these are either to clear platforms for other trains or due to being unable to reverse from the same platform due to lack of a crossover.

jawr256 said:

There are probably quite a few stations where terminating trains routinely change platforms as ECS before restarting. Some examples in the north-west are Clitheroe, Hazel Grove, Wigan Wallgate and Manchester Piccadilly platforms 13/14 (less often since May). It is also increasingly frequent at Paignton with the new timetable. Often these are either to clear platforms for other trains or due to being unable to reverse from the same platform due to lack of a crossover.

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Also missed Cardiff central as trains will often arrive on platform 4 and either a route to the brickyard sidings or to the carriage washer. Then will come back out into, usually platform 1 or 2.Sometimes if they arrive too late and have enough fuel, will depart again from platform 4. So not needing to move over, and if happens the platform number on the screens is changed. Witnessed it happen a lot to the Nottingham to Cardiff ones and back.

David Emmott said:

In my capacity as the local vicar, I once had to conduct a funeral for a man who died on the train between Waterloo and Shepperton. Apparently he was travelling with a friend and 'fell asleep'; the friend got off the train and left him, while the corpse travelled several times up and down on that line, undisturbed by officious railway officials or anyone else it seems.

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Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

duffield said:

Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

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I'm sure in this case 'on train between X and Y would suffice'. use of CCTV might determine a more precise location, but if the detail doesn't exist, you can't confirm it. (Unless it is when someone is declared deceased by a medical professional? and the location that the declaration is made might be used?)

aleggatta said:

I'm sure in this case 'on train between X and Y would suffice'. use of CCTV might determine a more precise location, but if the detail doesn't exist, you can't confirm it. (Unless it is when someone is declared deceased by a medical professional? and the location that the declaration is made might be used?)

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I guess I should have put in more detail - what I meant was that it's not clear which registrar of births & deaths you would register with, given that the train might have passed through several registration districts during the possible time of death.
Anyhow, I suppose such issues must have arisen repeatedly in the past so by now there must be a process for resolving them, but it could potentially complicate and delay the formalities.

Probably the same on ships/ aircraft, which country?

Grannyjoans said:

I drove an ECS with accidentally a passenger onboard once, and into a depot, it happens and it's not that rare

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Quite regularly on our patch......Kings Heath, Bletchley Carriage Sidings, Camden have all seen their fair share of "confused" passengers!

duffield said:

Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

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Bridport belle springs to mind on that issue

DynamicSpirit said:

Saperstein said:

At some bigger stations they don’t advertise the platform until a few minutes before departure, don’t know why, then you get pax pelting down the ramps to the platform to board the train, (London Euston I’m looking at you!).

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That will be so cleaning etc. staff can get the train ready and clean the train without having to work around hundreds of passengers! It is annoying though when you're at Euston waiting to board.

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Doesn't this only really happen at Euston though?
Or is it just passengers for Birmingham and the North West get overly concerned they'll miss their train if they don't rush?

duffield said:

Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

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I think the 'place of death' is where the death certificate happens to be signed - or, at least, as 'aleggatta' has suggested, where the individual is formally declared to be dead. If someone is rushed to hospital but confirmed as dead when they get there, they are considered 'dead on arrival' (i.e. at the hospital) and the fact that they may have actually died somewhere else is irrelevant.

whhistle said:

Doesn't this only really happen at Euston though?
Or is it just passengers for Birmingham and the North West get overly concerned they'll miss their train if they don't rush?

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It happens in a few places - most London termini and a few major Scottish stations at least. Notably it doesn't happen at Manchester Piccadilly, which demonstrates that it needn't at Euston either. It belongs to an era before train doors could be centrally locked.

duffield said:

Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

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In my previous work I've seen a Queensland death certificate where the place of death was recorded as "on the road from A to B, near milepost 99" - our customer had been driving alone in the Australian outback and had a heart attack at the wheel.

A number of survivors of the Quintinshill disaster were taken to hospitals in Carlisle, where some of them succumbed to their injuries. Inquests were opened under English law but adjourned so that all the court proceedings could be done under Scots law (and presumably to remove the risk of two sets of inquests producing different findings).

duffield said:

Does that not create issues with the death certificate? What is the 'place of death' in such a case?

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whhistle said:

Doesn't this only really happen at Euston though?

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It happens at other termini. I think people particularly notice it at Euston partly because the concourse is so obviously too small for the numbers of people waiting (and - related to that - there are virtually no seats), and partly because the concourse is so far from the platforms. At practically every other terminal I can think of, the concourse is right next to the platforms, but at Euston there's a bit of a walk, even to get to the end of the train nearest the concourse. That is inevitably going to add to people's fears about getting on in time if they only have 10 minutes or so to board.

I remember way back in the early 1990s my mate and I "accidently" stayed on an EMU at Nielston station when it swapped over from the Down to the Up platform. The conductor found us and told us off! But we got that bit of track!