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Caledonian Sleeper

Joined
2 Jan 2009
Messages
517
Organising coaches is a separate question as to why they opted to dump the remaining passengers at Dalmuir...

Sorry everyone. I know we're 11 hours late and you should be in London by now instead of Glasgow. To assist we're going to dump you here in West Glasgow and let you make your own way to Central where our staff will also be unable to help. Bye.
 
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MrEd

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13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
Apologies if I have missed it ‘up thread’ but could somebody provide a quick summary of how the sleeper staff actually work?

I am imagining (1) ‘Sleeping Car Attendants’, who will actually check in passengers on the platform and then (whilst the train is running) be on duty to respond to calls, fire alarms, etc. in the sleeping cars and bring some passengers refreshments in the morning. (2) Lounge/buffet staff whose main role is ‘catering’ rather than looking after the actual sleeping cars, and (3) a ‘Train Manager’ who is largely an operational ‘guard’ in terms of despatch, liaison with the driver, contacting control and disseminating information within the train, probably via the other staff (other than in the seated coaches) I am not clear if the Train Manager has any direct authority over other on-board staff, e.g. in instructing them to lock vehicles out of use because of defective lighting, for instance. Is the Train Manager expected to perform any direct customer service roles if things get ‘busy’?

This may be all wrong. I also get that with portion working there may be distinct ‘teams’ over the sections where trains are running in combined formations.

It would be great to have a concise explanation from somebody who actually knows.

Assuming that the train has a full complement of staff, there should be one sleeping car attendant (called a sleeper host) for every two sleeping cars. Their job, as you say, is to check passengers in and to respond to calls throughout the night, and also to inform passengers of any delays. When they are otherwise unoccupied, they should assist the chief steward/team leader with the evening service in the lounge car. They also arrange breakfast for sleeper passengers, collecting the breakfast order cards, bringing it to passengers’ cabins or taking trays through to the lounge car as appropriate.

The lounge car is usually staffed by a chief steward, known as a team leader, who takes orders, cooks hot meals and serves passengers both at their tables and at the buffet counter. As this is quite a big ask, it is normal for him to be assisted by at least one of the sleeping car hosts, perhaps more once check-in duties are finished and breakfast order cards have been collected; on a busy down Highlander, it’s not uncommon to see all the sleeping car hosts assisting the team leader for the main dinner service. The team leader is also responsible for stock control in the lounge car and needs to cash up and perform the stock check (completing paperwork to this effect) at the end of service.

The train also has a train manager who is, as you say, a guard, fulfilling all the operational and safety-critical duties of a guard working with hauled stock at any other passenger TOC, including doors, dispatch and the brake continuity test. I don’t think that CS train managers perform revenue duties, though, as the checking of tickets (and selling of walk-up tickets, where required) is, I think, the duty of the hosts on check-in. Possibly the train managers on the Edinburgh-Inverness and Edinburgh-Fort William portions can sell local tickets between Edinburgh-Fort William and Kingussie-Inverness, where the train can be used as a day train, but I’m not sure about this. I don’t think the train managers between Edinburgh and London normally perform any revenue duties.

The train manager will usually walk through the seated coach and lounge car to inform passengers in the event of major disruption; generally one of the hosts will then be sent through the sleeping cars to inform guests in their berths of disruption; I’ve never myself known a train manager to knock on berth doors. Obviously the train manager is responsible for safety, so if a coach has to be taken out of service or locked out of use, it will generally be at his instruction and the on-board hosts will have to uphold this. The customer service (e.g. dinner and breakfast, whether berths should be reallocated etc.) is generally organised by the team leader and hosts, and the train manager will not normally intervene in this area except as a last resort. In particular, as to how the lounge car service is run, and whether the lounge is to be partially or fully restricted to first class, are at the discretion of the team leader, not the train manager.

I have no knowledge of the staffing patterns on the Lowlander, but on the Highlander, one train manager works the train between Euston and Edinburgh. The train then splits into three portions, with the Inverness portion worked by one train manager between Edinburgh and Inverness, the Aberdeen portion worked by one train manager between Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and the Fort William portion worked by one train manager as far as Dalmuir, and another from Dalmuir to Fort William. In the south, the reverse happens. On Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays northbound, the London-Edinburgh section is worked by a London train manager, and on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays northbound, an Edinburgh (south link) train manager (these men then work south the following night, in an alternating pattern). The train managers on the Aberdeen and Inverness portions are always Edinburgh based (north link); the Fort William portion train managers are Dalmuir (north side of Glasgow) based. With regard to the hosts and team leaders, the normal pattern is: Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday nights northbound, London-based hosts and team leaders work to Aberdeen and Inverness, and back south the following night; on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays northbound, Aberdeen and Inverness hosts and team leaders work all the way back home, after working south to London the previous evening. With the Fort William portion, the through sleeping cars are manned by a London host Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays northbound, who works south the next night, and a Fort William host Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays northbound, who has worked south the previous night. The lounge car for the Fort William portion is added/detached at Edinburgh, and this is always worked by a Fort William based team leader, working south to Edinburgh in the evening, then back to Fort William on the same lounge car the following morning.

Sorry that this is quite a long and complex explanation, but I hope this helps with your question.
 

Kendalian

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2016
Messages
249
CalSleeper have just cancelled Sunday's Fort William portions up and down.

Northbound they are running a replacement coach from, wait for it, Euston to Dumbarton FFS....

The excuse is the stock is out of position. They've got 24+ hours to get one lot of stock to Euston and one lot to Fort Bill to get back on track.
Too easy for CS to just give up like this.

Mattheson needs to call Flaherty in on Monday morning for a serious bollocking :{, at the moment it really does look like CS have given up on trying to provide a proper service.
 

6Z09

Member
Joined
19 Nov 2009
Messages
499
Saturday/Sunday Engineering possessions will impact on these kind of moves no matter what TOC is involved.
 

Kendalian

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2016
Messages
249
Saturday/Sunday Engineering possessions will impact on these kind of moves no matter what TOC is involved.

Nothing scheduled according to CS's own site. There's always a way when there's a will!

BBC on CS's case now over the Fort William debacle. As stated previously, Black Friday looks like being the final straw before action is taken....
 

alangla

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11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
Saturday/Sunday Engineering possessions will impact on these kind of moves no matter what TOC is involved.
WHL seems to be running normally today, as does the WCML. Presumably both sets of Fort William stock are at Polmadie, so should have been serviced by now. I appreciate sourcing crews with enough driving hours to get the stock to Fort William & Wembley might be more of a challenge though
 

Kendalian

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2016
Messages
249
WHL seems to be running normally today, as does the WCML. Presumably both sets of Fort William stock are at Polmadie, so should have been serviced by now. I appreciate sourcing crews with enough driving hours to get the stock to Fort William & Wembley might be more of a challenge though

Cue GB Rf to find the solution....after all it was their underpowered rebuilt 73 that caused this problem in the first place!
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,216
Organising coaches is a separate question as to why they opted to dump the remaining passengers at Dalmuir...

Sorry everyone. I know we're 11 hours late and you should be in London by now instead of Glasgow. To assist we're going to dump you here in West Glasgow and let you make your own way to Central where our staff will also be unable to help. Bye.

But at Dalmuir they can be put on to a direct train to Central LL for a VT service.
 

Leisurefirst

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2013
Messages
408
Hi there,
What's the best pair of seats to choose on the existing stock please?
Want to travel facing forwards for the Euston to Edinburgh part of the journey, be able to recline the seats and avoid that metal thing on the floor that's I the way in one of the seats (I don't know what it is if you could enlighten me please!)
Thanks in advance!
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
But at Dalmuir they can be put on to a direct train to Central LL for a VT service.
And given there's a change of guard at Dalmuir - thanks @MrEd for that detailed information - it may simply be that there was nobody available, with hours remaining, to work the train forward from Dalmuir.
 

Mathew S

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Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
Cue GB Rf to find the solution....after all it was their underpowered rebuilt 73 that caused this problem in the first place!
There's engineering work limiting the service in and out of Euston all weekend, the usual plethora of weekend blockades all over the show, as well as weekly Saturday night possessions. Even if there are paths to be had to move the stock, which may not be the case, if there are no drivers free because they're all booked doing other work, which isn't exactly unlikely on a busy weekend of engineering possessions, there's nothing GBRF or anyone else can do.
 

Maxfly

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Joined
9 Mar 2010
Messages
269
Location
Scotland
Cue GB Rf to find the solution....after all it was their underpowered rebuilt 73 that caused this problem in the first place!
Rubbish, they are adequately powered for the job they are tasked with. It was a failure of the loco yes, as has happened with the overpowered, speed restricted class 67’s in the past.
 

Kendalian

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2016
Messages
249
Rubbish, they are adequately powered for the job they are tasked with. It was a failure of the loco yes, as has happened with the overpowered, speed restricted class 67’s in the past.

Rubbish indeed sir, 1600hp for 4 Mk3s and 2 Mk2s plus the weight of the loco chugging up from Loch Treig to Corrour.

Locos can fail anytime, a 67 failed at Dalwhinnie in May southbound, at least on that occasion the stock was brought back to Wembley for the northbound run that evening.
 

Scotrail84

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Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,366
Rubbish indeed sir, 1600hp for 4 Mk3s and 2 Mk2s plus the weight of the loco chugging up from Loch Treig to Corrour.

Locos can fail anytime, a 67 failed at Dalwhinnie in May southbound, at least on that occasion the stock was brought back to Wembley for the northbound run that evening.


Round about 330 tonnes I think, including locos weight.
 

Maxfly

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9 Mar 2010
Messages
269
Location
Scotland
How did 37’s manage in days of yore? The 73’s are generally regarded by drivers who have now had a good few years of experience with them as ‘being able to skin a 37’ Of course a full complement of working Traction Motors does help.
 

MrEd

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
Rubbish indeed sir, 1600hp for 4 Mk3s and 2 Mk2s plus the weight of the loco chugging up from Loch Treig to Corrour.

Locos can fail anytime, a 67 failed at Dalwhinnie in May southbound, at least on that occasion the stock was brought back to Wembley for the northbound run that evening.

Certainly I agree that the reliability of the Class 67s was hardly spotless (and is hardly spotless today). I do question the notion that the 73/9s are underpowered, particularly as they’re Type 3 locos and single 37s (only 150hp more, though admittedly heavier and with a higher tractive effort) have hauled much heavier trains (load 6+a 74-ton ETHEL) over the line with relative ease in the past. In fact, single 27s (1250hp, of a comparable tractive effort, and 3 tons lighter than a 73/9 if vacuum only, as many were until withdrawal) worked 6-coach trains over the route for the best part of two decades before the 37s arrived on scene and generally seemed to manage OK (admittedly their traction motors took a pounding, but clearly there was no thought of replacing them until the late 70s, when 37s were first tried). Two summers of a load 6 Fort William portion have also passed without incident, with the 73/9s working successfully. The Fort William GBRf drivers I’ve spoken to certainly have no concerns about the haulage capabilities of the 73/9s, and think they’re much better suited to the task than the 67s. No loco is perfect (yes, even the much lauded 37s failed in embarrassing places on the WHL during the 1980s) but you could find a lot worse than a 73/9 that’s for sure.
 
Last edited:

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
Hi there,
What's the best pair of seats to choose on the existing stock please?
Want to travel facing forwards for the Euston to Edinburgh part of the journey, be able to recline the seats and avoid that metal thing on the floor that's I the way in one of the seats (I don't know what it is if you could enlighten me please!)
Thanks in advance!
Get on first & don’t choose the back row as it might not recline as much and the toilet might get whiffy. Front row on the left offers a view out the front & probably full recline, plus you can chat to the driver
 

Crepello

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Joined
29 Jun 2018
Messages
56
Aggregating the this thread, it seems some would be happy with 4x 156s hauling every FTW sleeper formation, perhaps with a barrier vehicle to convert mech/elec/pneum couplings - or maybe just some old bicycle chain. At every station, minimum two Type 5s as rescue resources, plus several dozen traincrew to allow for absences. And every couple hundred miles downroute, a generous rake of Mk 3s on hot standby... am I right so far? :P. Not to mention that every CEO in the supply chain should travel on every CS train, every night, and be publicly executed any time there’s service disruption.....

Back on planet earth, greatly enjoyed my run on 1S25 three nights ago. Host at Euston warned there’d be no breakfast as “we’re at 25% staffing”. Assured him I’d every sympathy for the challenges they’re all facing right now, and that their hard work was appreciated. Made INV a few minutes early, to scorching weather. It’s unfortunate the negatives continue to receive media attention, while the many positive experiences do continue.

PS @ alangla - muhahaaa... ;)
 

MrEd

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
How did 37’s manage in days of yore? The 73’s are generally regarded by drivers who have now had a good few years of experience with them as ‘being able to skin a 37’ Of course a full complement of working Traction Motors does help.

37/4s handled load 6 with ease in the 80s and 90s (and providing ETS too). In the era of 37/0s, load 6 or even 7 + 74-ton ETHEL was not unheard of and they seemed to manage just fine. Obviously it depended how well-maintained the 37 was but I doubt that any drivers would have batted an eyelid at taking a single 37 (or even a 27) over the route with load 6 in the BR Blue era.

Interestingly, I have in my collection a repair book from 37114, when it was first reallocated from March to Eastfield to replace Class 27s on secondary passenger work in 1981. Many of these were initially in poor condition after years of hammer on the Eastern region, and did not seem a massive improvement over the 27s they replaced. A Mallaig driver famously wrote at the bottom of his entry (lamenting an inoperable boiler, draughty cabs, low power and continuous wheel slip) ’About time this wreck went to Doncaster for overhaul or scrap. Give us back our 27s, at least they work.’ Yet the 37s on the WHL grew to be a great success story...
 

M7R

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2010
Messages
262
Get on first & don’t choose the back row as it might not recline as much and the toilet might get whiffy. Front row on the left offers a view out the front & probably full recline, plus you can chat to the driver

Love it! :lol::lol::lol:
 

MrEd

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2019
Messages
587
[QUOTE="Crepello, post: 4083389, member: 62755]

Back on planet earth, greatly enjoyed my run on 1S25 three nights ago. Host at Euston warned there’d be no breakfast as “we’re at 25% staffing”. Assured him I’d every sympathy for the challenges they’re all facing right now, and that their hard work was appreciated. Made INV a few minutes early, to scorching weather. It’s unfortunate the negatives continue to receive media attention, while the many positive experiences do continue.

PS @ alangla - muhahaaa... ;)[/QUOTE]

Good to see some positive experiences to balance out the negative. The staff are generally fantastic and do an amazing job in the circumstances. I’m very much looking forward to my trip to Fort William on Wednesday; I always have a great time on the sleeper.
 

Dr Hoo

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10 Nov 2015
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3,957
Location
Hope Valley
Assuming that the train has a full complement of staff...

SNIP

Sorry that this is quite a long and complex explanation, but I hope this helps with your question.

Thank you very much, MrEd, for that extremely helpful and informative reply. I will take from it that there is a reasonable degree of staff flexibility. Clearly if trains are running at 25% staffing, as noted by Crepello, above, there are going to be problems.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Marston Vale mafia"
Been a lot of negative points on here recently, some more true than others, however on a positive I'd like to say the TM and Crew on 1S26 were brill last night, even with all the issues that they faced.

I would agree that it appears that the crews are (as tends to be the case on the railway, by and large) working very hard to keep things going despite often very poor management and equipment. They deserve a medal.
 

woodhouse122

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9 Aug 2011
Messages
206
Glad i'm not on the fort william service on sunday night, a Coach from Euston to Dumbarton Central than onwards to FW doesnt seem like a magical journey as promised on the CS website.Surely they could have brought the ECS down to wembley instead of making passengers endure a overnight trip up the motorway ;)
 

Bletchleyite

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659 late - is this a record for a passenger train? o_O

There are countries where that is not at all abnormal...in some ways we have it cushy in the UK. Most of my train journeys are punctual, or at least within 5 minutes or so.

There's something quite impressive about getting on an XC at somewhere like Taunton that's come all the way down from Scotland but is bang on.
 

Bletchleyite

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Northbound they are running a replacement coach from, wait for it, Euston to Dumbarton FFS....

I'm assuming the reason for this is to join the first ScotRail service of the day from there to FW (having originated at Glasgow). Which does make some sort of sense, but they could actually bother to state that.

Oh...from Euston...sorry - misread! What are they doing, running the seated coach and the lounge only? That'd be one to get a photo of - you don't see many 2-car non-top-and-tailed LHCS trains!

If they are running the sleeper coaches to FW, I'd rather be bussed to Edinburgh than Dumbarton, as I could at least get 4 hours or so kip.
 
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Chris999999

Member
Joined
22 Jun 2010
Messages
238
I would agree that it appears that the crews are (as tends to be the case on the railway, by and large) working very hard to keep things going despite often very poor management and equipment. They deserve a medal.
Oh, I wasn't aware there was any management. Are you certain about this?
 

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