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Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

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JonathanH

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I very much doubt that 195s won't be used on Saturdays from 6/7/19. If there was any question about 195s' reliability I'm sure they wouldn't be being scheduled for seven M/F duties from next Monday.

Three diagrams end at Barrow. How do you ensure that enough alternative stock is at Barrow on Friday night such that you don't need the 195s on Saturday. Is the unit requirement that much lower on that route on Saturdays than it is on weekdays?

Whilst it is very common not to use new units at the weekend from the start, it has happened on some routes - e.g. the LNER Azuma introduction.
 
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childwallblues

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0453 0548 0647 and 0748 (0618 from PRE)are diagrammed from BIF to MIA.
The other three units are off Allerton with one unit spending the day on the LIV-MIA circuit. Units two and three appear to work as a six car on the 0613 LIV-WML and 0748 to LIV were the units split. One unit goes on to the 0916 to MIA and stays on this diagram for the rest of the day, its final working being the 1950 MIA-LIV. Unit three re-appears with Unit Two on the 1516 LIV-MIA and 1645 return to LIV were they split again.
195105/10/11/15 were all noted on Allerton Depot yesterday by a colleague.
 

Greybeard33

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My reckoning it should free up 4x 158 and 4x 156?
A 319 will also be freed up, which is currently operating a temporary Manchester Airport to Preston diagram in lieu of the full Airport to Barrow services.

That 319 has been "borrowed" from a Chat Moss stopper diagram, with the usual stand-in being a 150+142 combo. So presumably the 319 will return to its "proper" diagram, in turn freeing up the 150 and 142.
 

Philip

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Is the 16:34 Man Airport to Barrow permanently routed through Bolton, or just until TPE start stopping there?

Surprised that the 22:10 to Barrow is routed through Wigan, since this is a Scottish service path.
 

Mathew S

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Is the 16:34 Man Airport to Barrow permanently routed through Bolton, or just until TPE start stopping there?

Surprised that the 22:10 to Barrow is routed through Wigan, since this is a Scottish service path.
I don't know about the 1634.
The 2210 (2200 as was) has been via Wigan since before the franchise change, when it was a TPE service. It's pretty well loaded both with late shift workers like myself, as well as football fans and people who've been to events. The time is pretty much ideal. I've actually seen it busy enough that there have been people standing (it's usually a 2 car 158).
 

Greybeard33

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Is the 16:34 Man Airport to Barrow permanently routed through Bolton, or just until TPE start stopping there?
TPE is only going to stop at Bolton in off peak hours. The 1610, 1710 and 1810 departures from the Airport will continue to run non stop from Oxford Road to Preston.

The Northern 1634 to Barrow is scheduled to call at Bolton and Chorley at least until the December timetable change.
 

Bovverboy

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #13 originally in this thread.

The northern 195 schedules for weekdays from 1st July 2019

**UPDATED WITH CORRECTIONS MADE**


195 Diagrams
by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

The rotation between the diagrams appears to be 1>2>3>4>5>6>7. Diagrams 2 and 3 obviously both start and finish at Barrow so could be in the opposite sequence, but everywhere else the progression is arithmetical so I expect that 2 & 3 will follow the same rule.
Notable ECS workings (according to Realtime Trains):
Diagram 4: 5J25 2349 Preston to Newton Heath TMD
Diagram 5: 5F91 0524 Newton Heath TMD to Manchester Airport
Diagram 7: 5F91 1910 Liverpool Lime Street to Preston Croft Street Sidings

Overnight stabling seems to be at Barrow Carriage Sidings (diagrams 1, 2, & 3); Newton Heath TMD (diagram 4); Allerton TMD (diagram 5); Liverpool Lime Street platform 7 (diagram 6); Preston Croft Street Sidings (diagram 7).

As always, platform numbers at Lime Street are a bit suspect, so I wouldn't be surprised if reality does vary a bit from the above. In particular, looking at RTT you would say that 1F92 couples to 1F91 before becoming 5F91 and heading off to Preston, but 1F92 is presumably a sprinter so can't do, and, in any case, that would mean too many units stabling at Preston.

It looks as though diagram 7 lies over in platform 8 at Lime Street in the middle of the day.
 
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Mathew S

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This:
That's correct. It should however be noted that the 7 diagrams in the North West in particular are subject to crew availability as not all crews have been trained on the new units. These are being looked at a few days before once rosters are done and older units may be substituted. 7 is a maximum.
from the Northern Pacer Withdrawals thread is a good point. How many crews have actually been trained to use the 195s? And, if a diagram falls over for lack of trained staff, will there be units availabale to substitute in? For example, will the current 158s have already fled back over the Pennines?
 

scrapy

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This:

from the Northern Pacer Withdrawals thread is a good point. How many crews have actually been trained to use the 195s? And, if a diagram falls over for lack of trained staff, will there be units availabale to substitute in? For example, will the current 158s have already fled back over the Pennines?
In the grand scheme of things the numbers trained are very low, probably well less than 10% of traincrew even discounting the depots that are unlikely to sign the units (North East). However there are only crews from 5 depots in the North West that need to sign them and even then depots are split into links so maybe only one link will be trained but that's all that is needed, there does seem to be quite a bit of randomness in where gaps still lie. The answer to your question is that there are probably enough trained to initially operate the service but with very little slack. I wouldn't be surprised to see cancellations or unit substitutions but also wouldn't be surprised if everything goes well. I am not sure that Northerns management are totally on top of it, most management plan for worst case scenario and hopefully get better results but have a back up, wheras Northern expect everything to go to plan and then look who they can blame if something goes wrong, but they may get lucky. Obviously as training continues the situation will get better.
 

mikemcniven

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The 195's in service on Monday should be 195116, 195117 and 195118 on the Cumbria to Manchester Airport services along with 195121. 195114 or 195119 will be on the Manchester Airport to Liverpool services.

With 195102 and 195120 been coupled for some part of the Manchester Airport/Wilmslow to Liverpool diagrams with one of the two dropping off and working solo on the Manchester Airport to Liverpool services.
 

Bovverboy

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The rotation between the diagrams appears to be 1>2>3>4>5>6>7.

It looks like any spare units are going to be kept at Newton Heath, so there could be a change of unit between diagrams 4 and 5. (Or between any others, if a unit gives trouble!)
 

LeylandLen

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In the grand scheme of things the numbers trained are very low, probably well less than 10% of traincrew even discounting the depots that are unlikely to sign the units (North East). However there are only crews from 5 depots in the North West that need to sign them and even then depots are split into links so maybe only one link will be trained but that's all that is needed, there does seem to be quite a bit of randomness in where gaps still lie. The answer to your question is that there are probably enough trained to initially operate the service but with very little slack. I wouldn't be surprised to see cancellations or unit substitutions but also wouldn't be surprised if everything goes well. I am not sure that Northerns management are totally on top of it, most management plan for worst case scenario and hopefully get better results but have a back up, wheras Northern expect everything to go to plan and then look who they can blame if something goes wrong, but they may get lucky. Obviously as training continues the situation will get better.

No doubt there might be a few teething problems in the first week of new trains on Northern ; such as the right crews being in the right place at the right time and obviously all being available for work.Cant say that I have been that impressed with Northerns management over the last year or so; I know they have had problems with staff leading to strikes.
All I would ask is that they are open and honest about problems , to us , prospective passengers or ' customers' . I know it is not easy managing people ; not all do as they are told or always puntual. Yes 'we' passengers can cause problems.
Anyway, lets be positive , having brand new trains a step in the right direction.
 

Mogster

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I don't know about the 1634.
The 2210 (2200 as was) has been via Wigan since before the franchise change, when it was a TPE service. It's pretty well loaded both with late shift workers like myself, as well as football fans and people who've been to events. The time is pretty much ideal. I've actually seen it busy enough that there have been people standing (it's usually a 2 car 158).

I’d like to know about the 16:34 also. It seems to have replaced the 319 Airport-Blackpool via Wigan that used to leave Oxford Road around 16:50, apart from the fact it now goes via Bolton.

With this timetable there’s only 1 direct Castlefield - Wigan service between 16:00 - 17:00...
 

Mathew S

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I’d like to know about the 16:34 also. It seems to have replaced the 319 Airport-Blackpool via Wigan that used to leave Oxford Road around 16:50, apart from the fact it now goes via Bolton.

With this timetable there’s only 1 direct Castlefield - Wigan service between 16:00 - 17:00...
Yes, that's correct. It does 'replace' the service that was via Wigan. And, yes, there is no direct train from Piccadilly or Oxford Road to Wigan between the 1618 and the 1718. (To be honest, for anyone who needs to travel in that hour the quickest option is a service to Victoria and jump on the 1650/1655 train to Wigan from there).

What I don't know is whether the 16xx Barrow will continue to run via Bolton from December onwards, or whether it's just a temporary thing with TPE not stopping at Bolton.
 

Bovverboy

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I take it they are short of EMU's still?

Technically, no. Just recently a DMU set has been covering a duty on Chat Moss stoppers (normally electric) but that's only been to compensate for a 319 which has been doing Airport-Wigan NW-Preston, in turn covering for a shortage of 158s/195s. The 319 should be back on Chat Moss stoppers from Monday.
Northern currently has the use of 27 319s to cover 24 duties, and 17 323s to cover 15. The remaining three 319s and two 323s cover scheduled maintenance. Nobody pays Northern to keep 'spares', so they don't do.
 

Jozhua

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Hi, anyone know of 195's passing through Salford Crescent in the near future?

I'm assuming that they will be entering service later than the 331's?
 

Mathew S

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Hi, anyone know of 195's passing through Salford Crescent in the near future?

I'm assuming that they will be entering service later than the 331's?
From Monday onward, the 1634 Manchester Airport to Barrow will pass through Salford Crescent at, all being well, 1704. This is the only passenger service through there for the time being. It does not stop, and is scheduled, according to RTT, to pass through platform 2.
 

PHILIPE

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Hi, anyone know of 195's passing through Salford Crescent in the near future?

I'm assuming that they will be entering service later than the 331's?

Your answers are in Post #1 which is what the thread is all about. This is the Diagrams only thread which was separated from the General 195 thread
 

Mathew S

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Your answers are in Post #1 which is what the thread is all about. This is the Diagrams only thread which was separated from the General 195 thread
Jozhua was asking a genuine question about said diagrams. Only one of the Barrow/Windermere services each day passes through Salford Crescent, something which there is no way to know from the information in Post #1.

For Jozhua (or anyone else's) further information; there will be Northern Connect services through Salford Crescent - the Blackpool to Man Airport trains - but I expect these will be 331s rather than 195s.
 

HotelNovember

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Technically, no. Just recently a DMU set has been covering a duty on Chat Moss stoppers (normally electric) but that's only been to compensate for a 319 which has been doing Airport-Wigan NW-Preston, in turn covering for a shortage of 158s/195s. The 319 should be back on Chat Moss stoppers from Monday.
Northern currently has the use of 27 319s to cover 24 duties, and 17 323s to cover 15. The remaining three 319s and two 323s cover scheduled maintenance. Nobody pays Northern to keep 'spares', so they don't do.

There was a balancing move this evening (5T59) Preston-Liverpool to account for the 319 which has been working the Man Air-Preston services, in readiness for the switch to 195’s from Monday.
 

Roose

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At least four new trains in Barrow Carriage Sidings yesterday afternoon ready for the introduction of this stock on the Furness Line's Manchester services on Monday.
 

Jozhua

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From Monday onward, the 1634 Manchester Airport to Barrow will pass through Salford Crescent at, all being well, 1704. This is the only passenger service through there for the time being. It does not stop, and is scheduled, according to RTT, to pass through platform 2.

Thank-you for your help! For now I'm enjoying a bouncy pacer service back to Salford. I look forward to seeing them round, as I haven't seen either 331 or 195 in person yet.
 

Neptune

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Blackpool - York has been spoken about for this year sometime. They really won’t be suitable for this route due to the lack of luggage racks (the overhead racks will be unable to take large suitcases).
 

Bovverboy

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From Monday onward, the 1634 Manchester Airport to Barrow will pass through Salford Crescent at, all being well, 1704. This is the only passenger service through there for the time being. It does not stop, and is scheduled, according to RTT, to pass through platform 2.

According to RTT, 1Y91 (1943 Barrow to Manchester Airport) is also scheduled to use the Bolton line and, therefore, of course, pass through Salford Crescent (at 2137). It isn't scheduled to stop at Salford Crescent or anywhere else between Preston and Manchester Oxford Road.
This journey also operates on a Saturday (1934 ex-Barrow, 2136 through Salford Crescent), and, again, isn't scheduled to stop at all between Preston and Oxford Road. I can't see any reason why this Saturday journey shouldn't be covered by a 195, but I'll happily be proved wrong.
On Sundays 1C53 (1035 Manchester Airport to Barrow - 1106 at Salford Crescent) is scheduled to use the Bolton line and call at Lostock and Chorley besides Salford Crescent. Note, not Bolton! 1Y95 (1047 Barrow to Manchester Airport) is scheduled to call at Chorley, Bolton, and Salford Crescent (the latter at 1247). As these two journeys are Sunday equivalents of M/F journeys which are scheduled to be 195-operated, I wouldn't be surprised if 195s happened to be used.

In the OP's summary in post #1, the 1147 journey Windermere to Oxenholme (Circuit 2) should have the train description 2C09.

EDIT: 1C53 has had the same calling pattern since at least 19/5/19.
 
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Mathew S

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According to RTT, 1Y91 (1943 Barrow to Manchester Airport) is also scheduled to use the Bolton line and, therefore, of course, pass through Salford Crescent (at 2137). It isn't scheduled to stop at Salford Crescent or anywhere else between Preston and Manchester Oxford Road.
Although this is supposed to be via Bolton, when it runs (which seems far from guaranteed at the moment) I've seen it run by either route. It's the up working which becomes the 2210 Airport-Barrow which I often use to get home, so I pay close attention to it to see whether I'm going to need to make other arrangements.

The weekend timetable I have to confess I ignored altogether; partly since we don't know yet whether they'll be 195 operated (though I agree I can't see why they wouldn't be), but mostly because there are still so many disruptions to the Northern timetable at weekends that it's less a timetable and more a gaze into a crystal ball...
 
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