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Used sisters 11-15 zip card

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Guest102

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hello everyone I was hoping to get some advice.
So a few weeks back I lost my contactless card, this is what I used to get around. Due to this my account was frozen until I could reactivate with my new card. So I used my younger sister 11-15 zip card on 2 occasions to get from West Dulwich station to Bromley south station. The 2nd time used it I got caught and was told I would receive a letter with more information as to what would happen next. Fast forward to today I received a letter from southeastern talking about ‘authorised provisional prosecution.’ Also asking for details such as my NI number ect, also telling me to give my account of what happened. At this point I just don’t want to get a criminal record, I’m a university student and I also have a job, Can i please get some advice I’m really scared and I don’t mind paying any amount for the fine so long as it doesn’t result in a criminal record. Thank you.
 
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cuccir

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Unfortunately, it sounds like you travelled without a valid ticket. 11-15 Zip cards give you a 50% discount that you're not eligible for (and I presume that they're non-transferable anyway). This is potentially prosecutable under either the Railway Byelaws, or the Regulation of the Railways Act.

Does the letter from Southeastern ask you to write in response with your version of events? If so, take the opportunity to apologise, explain your error (without trying to excuse yourself out of responsibilty) and explain you won't do this again. Offer to pay any costs that the Southeastern have incurred, as well as the full fare for the journey you made.

There's no particular need to give your NI number at this stage - no obligation to give anything other than your name and address - though arguably cooperating with any request at this stage might make them more likely to accept your offer, ie, to settle out of court.

If they agree to settle, that's the end of the matter. If you are prosecuted under the Regulation of the Railways Act they'd have to prove intent to avoid a fare; the Railway Byelaws simply require proof that you did avoid your fare. A prosecution under the Byelaws is easier for the train company and has a lower fine. They also shouldn't appear on any criminal records (eg in DBS checks), whereas a Regulation of the Railways prosecution would appear on DBS checks. The bad news is probably that they might well consdier the harsher prosecution, given that it might be fairly easy to establish that you'd know that you're not entitled to use your sister's card.

In terms of jobs - the vast vast majority of careers are not barred to people with one convction for a fairly small matter (the main exceptions would be legal and some medcine careers). The relatively good news for you is that any conviction would be 'spent' after 1 year - that is, you wouldn't have to declare it on job applciations after that time. So if (for example) you're a first year student now, you probably wouldn't be declaring this on applicaitons by the time you've graduated.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I suppose the question may come, at some point, why you used her Oyster card rather than to find an alternative means of payment. I can't really see any causal link between losing a contactless card and deciding to use an Oyster card that is non-transferable and which has a discount set which you have no entitlement to use.

You might like to think about what you would give as your response if you were asked whether there is anything more to it than meets the eye (which would appear to be deliberate evasion).
 

thedbdiboy

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Unfortunately, it sounds like you travelled without a valid ticket. 11-15 Zip cards give you a 50% discount that you're not eligible for (and I presume that they're non-transferable anyway).
It actually allows free travel between West Dulwich and Bromley South in line with the Mayor's free travel offer for children under 16.
 

najaB

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So a few weeks back I lost my contactless card, this is what I used to get around. Due to this my account was frozen until I could reactivate with my new card.
Sorry to hear that. Happens though.
So I used my younger sister 11-15 zip card on 2 occasions to get from West Dulwich station to Bromley south station.
Since you're obviously quite a bit over 15 years-old, how did you come to the conclusion that this would be okay?
 

MikeWh

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It actually allows free travel between West Dulwich and Bromley South in line with the Mayor's free travel offer for children under 16.
I hesitate to disagree with you, but the free travel for under 16s is only on buses. For late adopting NR routes (which this is) it's half the adult peak fare with a flat 75p off-peak fare.
 

Guest102

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Please I’m not here for you to tell me what I did was wrong, I know this, but please I came here for some help and advice. I didn’t use the card because I wanted to travel free or get any discounts, I used the card because at the time I thought it was my only alternative and I stupidly wasn’t thinking about the consequences.
 

Guest102

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When I lost my bank card I couldn’t access my money and I know I could have burrowed money and just purchased a blue oyster or even a ticket but I decided to take the easy route. My mindset was at ‘ I’ll use this once or twice and as soon as my bank card comes I’ll stop’
 

nuts & bolts

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Please I’m not here for you to tell me what I did was wrong, I know this, but please I came here for some help and advice. I didn’t use the card because I wanted to travel free or get any discounts, I used the card because at the time I thought it was my only alternative and I stupidly wasn’t thinking about the consequences.
Nobody here replying to you for advice is ticking you off, questions are being asked to accertain any mitigating circumstances that led you into this situation. I can understand you are worried about the outcome, but posters are here giving advice:)
 

cuccir

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When I lost my bank card I couldn’t access my money and I know I could have burrowed money and just purchased a blue oyster or even a ticket but I decided to take the easy route. My mindset was at ‘ I’ll use this once or twice and as soon as my bank card comes I’ll stop’

I'm sure it was; unfortunately your actions can easily look like someone with the mindset of "I'll use this because I can travel and pay less".

All you can do at this stage is write back and apologise, and hope that they will settle out of court. In the worst case scenario, a prosecution will cost you a little bit of money (in the low hundreds) but is unlikely to be that serious a deal for you in the long run - just a slightly embarrassing story from your teenage years or early 20s.
 

najaB

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When I lost my bank card I couldn’t access my money and I know I could have burrowed money and just purchased a blue oyster or even a ticket but I decided to take the easy route.
Was there a specific reason you couldn't go into a branch and withdraw money (e.g. it's an online-only card)?
 

Guest102

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I’m not sure about the online only but I was not able to use contactless payment and I couldn’t go to the bank because I was Running late for work, the closest bank to was about 30 mins away and I was late
 

najaB

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I’m not sure about the online only but I was not able to use contactless payment and I couldn’t go to the bank because I was Running late for work, the closest bank to was about 30 mins away and I was late
That *might* explain the first use, but not the second.
 
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I was stopped at Bromley South station at around 11 am
Before I even entered this thread, I was hedging my bets that Bromley South might be involved. Bromley South has been a hotspot for fare evaders in the past and with the high traffic that it gets, is a very popular location for revenue inspections.

I use the station several times a week and at least once a week, I will see RPIs or REOs at the gates, waiting to pounce on anyone who can't get through the gates or looks too old to be travelling on a child fare. Railcard lockout is also usually enabled, requiring anyone using a Railcard to speak to staff.

The advice already given here seems pretty fair - Your best bet is likely to argue that you felt you had a limited ability to pay and a perceived time pressure on your part - and that you were convinced this was the only way you could avoid getting into trouble at work. If it's your first ticketing offence, they may show leniance and give you the option of settling.

Other than that, I can't really give you too much advice except to point out that now you know that risking it "just the one time" is the time you'll get caught out. It's understandable that sometimes you can be dealt a bad hand - in your case, your account/card was frozen, but that's why I have backups - I have access to an Oyster card, Cash, a few Credit cards, and a secondary current account, with family members I can borrow a few quid from if I really am caught short.

And if you're "stranded" and there's someone at the ticket office at your station of origin, there's sometimes the option for them to issue you with a UPFN, which gives you permission to travel with your committal to pay the fare later. But someone might need to correct me on this.
 

some bloke

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I received a letter from southeastern talking about ‘authorised provisional prosecution.’
If they stated the alleged offence or the legislation (see @cuccir 's post above), that might help for specific advice. In any case, you could re-read the advice in these two posts:
apologise, explain your error (without trying to excuse yourself out of responsibilty) and explain you won't do this again. Offer to pay any costs that the Southeastern have incurred, as well as the full fare for the journey you made.
You might like to think about what you would give as your response if you were asked whether there is anything more to it than meets the eye (which would appear to be deliberate evasion).
When you write, you might use language that wouldn't be taken as implying you made a mistake, but shows you take responsibility for what you did.
I don’t mind paying any amount for the fine so long as it doesn’t result in a criminal record.
If you are prepared to pay, then you might like to consult a solicitor who works on criminal cases. It may be easier to discuss possible mitigating factors face to face. (A fine is only imposed by a court on conviction, while TfL sometimes offer an out-of-court settlement which would include administrative costs.)

If there are special reasons why a conviction would cause problems, TfL might take those into account. However, as posters above have indicated it does look like a clear case of fare evasion, and it would be unfair to give you the impression that a settlement looks particularly likely, on the basis of what you have said. TfL are not noted for being easy on these kinds of cases.

It may be useful to try and be very clear in what you say. For example, if you say your account was frozen because you lost your card, someone might wonder if you could have got access to money by going to a branch of the bank, or by phone or internet banking.
 
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cuccir

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If there are special reasons why a conviction would cause problems, TfL might take those into account. However, as posters above have indicated it does look like a clear case of fare evasion, and it would be unfair to give you the impression that a settlement looks particularly likely, on the basis of what you have said. TfL are not noted for being easy on these kinds of cases.

Just a quick note that the train company involved is Southeastern, not TfL.
 

Haywain

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under the Regulation of the Railways Act they'd have to prove intent to avoid a fare;
That would be pretty easy; intent is judged by words and actions and the action of using a card which belongs to someone else is fairly clear cut.
If you are prepared to pay, then you might like to consult a solicitor who works on criminal cases.
Probably a bit early for involving solicitors. Send a response to the letter and consider getting a solicitor involved if/when a summons is issued.
 

some bloke

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Probably a bit early for involving solicitors. Send a response to the letter and consider getting a solicitor involved if/when a summons is issued.

To clarify, is that advice to definitely not consult a solicitor yet, or probably? Might it depend on @Guest102's reasons for wanting to avoid a conviction? Also, some people may prefer to discuss what might be personal mitigating factors face to face. A chat with a solicitor might bring clarity which discussions on here may not have brought yet. Initial consultations can be free.

Is there strong reason to doubt that a summons would be issued?
 

Haywain

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To clarify, is that advice to definitely not consult a solicitor yet, or probably? Might it depend on @Guest102's reasons for wanting to avoid a conviction? Also, some people may prefer to discuss what might be personal mitigating factors face to face. A chat with a solicitor might bring clarity which discussions on here may not have brought yet. Initial consultations can be free.

Is there strong reason to doubt that a summons would be issued?
My advice is, I think, pretty clear. The OP should attempt to obtain a settlement and if that fails and a summons is issued (which it won't be if a settlement is agreed), then would be an appropriate time to consult a solicitor. We see many, many cases in this forum where settlements are reached by writing a letter or two without needing to pay for professional services. Any mitigating factors will only be relevant in court, so I don't see even a free consultation being of any benefit.
 

some bloke

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Any mitigating factors will only be relevant in court
Is it not possible there could be relevant factors for @Guest102 to mention in a letter asking to settle?

so I don't see even a free consultation being of any benefit.
The particular problem in this case is that we haven't managed to come up with a strong reason why Southeastern should settle. Some people might find it easier to talk to, or hear from, a person by speaking with them. They might find it more reassuring, or take in information in a different way. I'm not saying she should consult a solicitor now - just that she may not want to exclude the option.
 

whhistle

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My mindset was at ‘ I’ll use this once or twice and as soon as my bank card comes I’ll stop’
You have to think whether the company would think this though.
It's all too easy to say what you meant, or planned, but it's a whole different ball game to see it from the companies point of view.
 

cuccir

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I'd advise the following:
  • Keep it relatively short and to the point. Remember that if you are prosecuted, they could use this letter as evidence in court.
  • Apologise, explain, but don't excuse
  • Offer to settle

In terms of structure:
  1. State in a few sentences what happened - keep this bit factual and focus on the incident(s) mentioned in the letter
  2. Apologise - you've already in post 7 of this thread said that the decision was stupid and you didn't think it through or consider that you were travelling at a reduced fare. If that's the honest explanation, I'd phrase it in those terms.
  3. State that you now realise the seriousness of what you did; that you'll take more care in making such decisions in future. It might be worth at this point reaffirming that you were not intending to avoid any fares
  4. State that you'd like to settle the matter out of court if possible, and offer to pay the fare owed + any costs that have been incurred in the investigation
Hopefully that's an outline of key points without really feeding you the lines!
 

Brissle Girl

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Might it be worth providing evidence both of the loss of the bank card and also the sequence of fares paid immediately prior to that loss. It would certainly show that you are not a persistent fare evader.
 

Haywain

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Might it be worth providing evidence both of the loss of the bank card and also the sequence of fares paid immediately prior to that loss. It would certainly show that you are not a persistent fare evader.
It might equally show more misuse than the train operator is aware of.
 

Guest102

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Hello everyone, I sent off the letter today, do you know how long it will take them to get back to me me
 

some bloke

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I sent off the letter today, do you know how long it will take them to get back to me me

Where they don't allege fraud, they would have to start legal proceedings by "laying the information before the court" within six months of the alleged offence.

They might send a summons to you some time after that, so it could be after the six months, but you may well get a letter earlier telling you what they intend to do as a result of your letter.
 
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