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Alternative route for HS2 phase 2 proposed with Manchester as through station

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Glen-Ped

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NPR will only get built off the back of the success of the eastern leg of HS2
If you have been following events NPR is paramount with HS2 secondary.
if Newcastle-London would be via upgraded ECML as quicker, surely London-Leeds would be too? Why bother with the Manchester-Leeds bit of HS2 in that case?
You have a point. London-Leeds via HS2 can only be temporary until the ECML is uprated. Leeds-Birmingham can be via NPR/HS2.
 
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MarkyT

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Thanks for the welcome. Derby and Notts have been critical of Toton being out of town. Shield insisted a classic line access to their centre was preferable to an out of town HS2 station. They got it changed.
Slightly more complex than that. The original route via Meadowhall proved very difficult and expensive to build on detailed survey and design for a number of reasons, which is why a cheaper alternative route following the M1/M18 corridor was suggested. That left Sheffield without a logical station location on the alignment, so the new proposal to serve the classic Chesterfield and Sheffield Midland stations was developed with a short connecting line near Clay Cross. This received full support from the city. There are proposals to run trains further along classic routes north of Sheffield and it's possible these could serve another station in the area such as Meadowhall or Rotherham that could provide a more effective 'South Yorks parkway', something that Sheffield Midland will no doubt struggle with. The problem with Derby and Nottingham is that it is not possible to route a high speed alignment through either existing station and especially not both, and it would be difficult to serve BOTH with the same train if a similar classic branch alternative was proposed. While I prefer city centre stations I understand how the the process of option development kept leading back to Toton. It is in an excellent position on the road network and has potential to become a major public transport interchange. Fast MML trains to London from both cities will certainly continue to run post HS2 and provide choices for travellers, but Toton is likely to grow the market considerably.
The HS2 eastern leg is not needed as the MML & ECML when uprated (they need uprating anyhow) gives similar services. What is important, and even Johnson emphasises this) is NPR. NPR is a goer. It is how it integrates with the rest of the network whether HS2 is there or not. Johnson may can the lot of HS2. HS2 is immensely unpopular, that is clear to see.
There are, I suspect, many hidden actors attempting to derail the project, just as there are attempting to stop the intercity rail rennaissance in the USA. Their motives are clearly to protect lucrative base-load domestic air corridors that have been decimated where high speed rail routes have been built and operated successfully in Europe and East Asia. Oil companies also wish to avoid any further mode transfer from still overwhelmingly petroleum based long distance private motoring. Think tanks and pressure groups such as the taxpayer alliance are puppets of these interests and are (allegedly) heavily funded by them. Brexit is also a project of these hidden players and make no mistake they will use any opportunity it offers to further their agenda.
 

si404

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Airports are red herrings with HS2. The Heathrow station was modelled as having only about 10% changing from plane to train - as many as were modelled going to Zone 1 (despite Euston trains)! The vast majority of people using Heathrow HS2 station would have come from places like Wycombe, Windsor and Woking and typically driving to the station (though some on the bus) or Southall, Staines and Slough and taking the train. OOC works just as well (if not better) for the vast majority, and most of those it doesn't work for would be using it as M25 Park and Ride.

The Manchester and Birmingham interchange stations are similar - the airport is transport hub serving suburbs. Though HS2 would also provide the city-airport fast link for those cities, unlike at Heathrow.
 

Glen-Ped

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The fact is that Sheffield were deeply disappointed with an out of town HS2 station and successfully campaigned to get a classic compatible service to the centre. Derby and Notts are also not happy wanting city centre services. They do not care what it is called or what type of track it runs on.
 

Glen-Ped

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The prime points of a high-speed rail was direct connections to:
  1. The Continent
  2. Major airports
The country's prime airport is not on HS2 neither is Continental connections. Not worth it then, as uprated existing mainlines can give similar services.
 

si404

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^^ this is either massively tongue in cheek, or shows a complete lack of understanding.

NPR is high speed rail. It won't link to the continent, so must be a total waste of time! Oh, and a through station under Manchester is a massive expense. How about having Manchester on a branch with Leeds-Manchester Airport direct as HSR is about that second aim of linking to major airports, while the city centre to city centre journeys can be on uprated mainlines as that would give a similar service. <D

Seriously, even if that last post was joking, you do keep arguing for a new build NPR line by saying that upgrading existing lines would give similar service, or even better. I'm not sure that's a sensible way to go about getting what you are asking for!
 

MarkyT

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The fact is that Sheffield were deeply disappointed with an out of town HS2 station and successfully campaigned to get a classic compatible service to the centre. Derby and Notts are also not happy wanting city centre services. They do not care what it is called or what type of track it runs on.
They will continue to enjoy such services running on the MML. Toton offers a choice. For some the city centre services will still be more convenient. For others the new hub will be the better option. The Toton hub also does not directly PREVENT direct HS2 services to Derby and Nottingham. Allocation of paths is one of the main reason these have not been proposed alongside the existing rail services, and one possibility might be to have half hourly Sheffield trains splitting at Toton with a portion alternately for Derby and Nottingham. That would require an additional simple HS to classic connection at the south end of the new station. I doubt it would be worth it however, as with the extra stop and time to split the time savings would not be spectacular compared to MML. Toton doesn't undermine the existing city stations or their services, it complements them and provides an easier rail option for many in the area. I suspect it will be highly successful in attracting new rail riders who currently drive long distance.
 

si404

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They will continue to enjoy such services running on the MML. Toton offers a choice. For some the city centre services will still be more convenient. For others the new hub will be the better option. The Toton hub also does not directly PREVENT direct HS2 services to Derby and Nottingham. Allocation of paths is one of the main reason these have not been proposed alongside the existing rail services, and one possibility might be to have half hourly Sheffield trains splitting at Toton with a portion alternately for Derby and Nottingham. That would require an additional simple HS to classic connection at the south end of the new station. I doubt it would be worth it however, as with the extra stop and time to split the time savings would not be spectacular compared to MML.
the connection is slated by Midlands Connect for Leeds-Leicester services. Nottingham would fare better than Derby from back portions splitting at Toton. Brum to Nottingham via HS2 would be quicker than the classic lines, even if you remove the Derby reverse.
 

Howardh

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Airports are red herrings with HS2. The Heathrow station was modelled as having only about 10% changing from plane to train
...would that be because Heathrow is so badly connected to the rest of the country? For me, using Heathrow means a train to London, and then train (not direct, have to go to Paddington) or the hour-long tube to Heathrow, meaning it's simpler to fly from Manchester = more planes = environmental damage = Heathrow at virtual full capacity.
Now give us in the NW a direct 2hr 20' train from Manchester to Heathrow and it's a no-brainer. Wins every time.
 

Mikey C

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All is up in the air. Johnson, who looks to be the next PM may can Heathrow. His views are well known.

At most Johnson might cancel the Heathrow 3rd runway. There is NO chance of Heathrow being replaced as London's main airport though.
 

si404

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...would that be because Heathrow is so badly connected to the rest of the country?
this is with the direct ~2h trains (which is slightly faster than you suggest) you want. The model showed that on an HS2 Heathrow train as many people boarded a train to central London (staying on to there - far more got off in West London) as boarded a flight.

Now total Heathrow traffic was worked out as about 3-5%, not the ~1% that 10% of 2tph suggests - OOC was found to be acceptable for North to Heathrow traffic with well over half of it using that connection. As Heathrow trains either mean lower frequency to London from Manchester and Leeds, or the loss of somewhere like Stoke from the HS2 network, the change at OOC is acceptable, and the vast majority of people on Heathrow trains would prefer OOC and Euston, there's no reason to serve the branch unless you want to make the net user experience worse!

From Manchester there would be 3tph (as opposed to 1 direct and 2 with change at OOC) to OOC where a change would get you to Heathrow in 2h20.

I should also point out that terminal 2 would require changing trains whatever, with the connecting service not much different OOC or Heathrow HS2.

But this is going way off the original topic!
 

Glen-Ped

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No it wasn't/isn't, if you mean direct services that is.
Direct services of course. The EU wants all major cities connected via high-speed rail. One of the reasons for HS1 & HS2, if not the prime reason.
 

HSTEd

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Pretty sure for anywhere outside central Nottingham Toton will beat the station.

Better road access than the centre and the South West of Nottingham will be able to access Toton rapidly on the tram.

Bus routes will develop to support traffic at Toton because potential journey time savings are huge
 

Howardh

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this is with the direct ~2h trains (which is slightly faster than you suggest) you want. The model showed that on an HS2 Heathrow train as many people boarded a train to central London (staying on to there - far more got off in West London) as boarded a flight.

Now total Heathrow traffic was worked out as about 3-5%, not the ~1% that 10% of 2tph suggests - OOC was found to be acceptable for North to Heathrow traffic with well over half of it using that connection. As Heathrow trains either mean lower frequency to London from Manchester and Leeds, or the loss of somewhere like Stoke from the HS2 network, the change at OOC is acceptable, and the vast majority of people on Heathrow trains would prefer OOC and Euston, there's no reason to serve the branch unless you want to make the net user experience worse!

From Manchester there would be 3tph (as opposed to 1 direct and 2 with change at OOC) to OOC where a change would get you to Heathrow in 2h20.

I should also point out that terminal 2 would require changing trains whatever, with the connecting service not much different OOC or Heathrow HS2.

But this is going way off the original topic!
I must admit I have baulked at the thought of changing terminals at Heathrow - for example next month I could have flown Manchester/Heathrow/Gibraltar but chose the train Manchester/Gatwick and then flight to Gibraltar from there. There's little difference in timing and cost, but the though of mauling around between two Heathrow terminals + having to go through security and check in twice (once M/cr, once Hthrw) was a total turn-off.
Also turned off by the thought of flying to Heathrow and then National Express to Gatwick as an alternative!!
 

Glen-Ped

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the connection is slated by Midlands Connect for Leeds-Leicester services. Nottingham would fare better than Derby from back portions splitting at Toton. Brum to Nottingham via HS2 would be quicker than the classic lines, even if you remove the Derby reverse.
The eastern leg of HS2 is very difficult to economically justify. Take its cost and apply to a Pennines base tunnel and uprating the MML & ECML, giving a superior solution all around.
 

si404

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The eastern leg of HS2 is very difficult to economically justify. Take its cost and apply to a Pennines base tunnel and uprating the MML & ECML, giving a superior solution all around.
and you'll have spent at least four or five times the amount (each mainline upgrade would cost as much, if not more, and the Pennines tunnel about twice as much due to tunnels being really expensive) and only achieved better benefits as you built the Pennine base Tunnel, which can be built even if HS2's eastern leg is (and actually is much much more likely to be built if HS2 east is!).

If you want a Pennines base tunnel, stop saying that the bit of HS2 with the best BCR and relatively cheap construction (especially compared to a big long tunnel) is too expensive and should be replaced with upgrades to existing lines (that are much more difficult to get a step change upgrade than the transpennine lines). It's shooting yourself in the foot!
 

mmh

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I must admit I have baulked at the thought of changing terminals at Heathrow - for example next month I could have flown Manchester/Heathrow/Gibraltar but chose the train Manchester/Gatwick and then flight to Gibraltar from there. There's little difference in timing and cost, but the though of mauling around between two Heathrow terminals + having to go through security and check in twice (once M/cr, once Hthrw) was a total turn-off.

Also turned off by the thought of flying to Heathrow and then National Express to Gatwick as an alternative!!



That's what through tickets are for, and (one of the reasons why) airlines like to have all their flights in the same terminal.
 

si404

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Quite. From the language hints in our new poster's posts it seems John Burns has found his way here after his most recent ban from SSC...
I did wonder if it was John based of hating Cublington (near where JB apparently lives), loving Boris Island, general nonsense on every front, etc but felt that he'd not pushed the Liverpool arm of NPR enough (though the talk of doing it as Liverpool is a port, rather than because it's a big city is very John Burns), nor slated Manchester enough to definitely be him.

I think I've done my duty at stopping impressionable people from thinking he makes good points and await the troll finder general to banish him back with bell, book and candle - or at least get a troll finder sergeant to do it. :p
 

Howardh

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That's what through tickets are for, and (one of the reasons why) airlines like to have all their flights in the same terminal.
In the case of BA and Heathrow, they're not from the same terminal (not for Man/Heathrow/Gib on the date I wanted) - and I thought BA only used terminal 5, I was wrong.
 

Glen-Ped

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It appears I have upset people with some facts, logic and common sense, so they see shadows. :)
 

dggar

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What's SSC and who / what are you talking about?
Sky Scrapper City, The HS2 threads there get contaminated quite regularly by a poster who has the same posting style and gets banned only to re appear later with a new user name. the poster is known on the SSC as Mad John or John Burns (from Milton Keynes)
 

mmh

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In the case of BA and Heathrow, they're not from the same terminal (not for Man/Heathrow/Gib on the date I wanted) - and I thought BA only used terminal 5, I was wrong.

Ah yes, it's quite silly that BA only a few years after the opening of T5 have outgrown it, Iberia merger or not.

I suspect Gibraltar for them is a little like they seem to treat Jersey - somewhere they "have" to go from London but with a captive market so they can do whatever they like.
 

Ianno87

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Ah yes, it's quite silly that BA only a few years after the opening of T5 have outgrown it, Iberia merger or not.

I suspect Gibraltar for them is a little like they seem to treat Jersey - somewhere they "have" to go from London but with a captive market so they can do whatever they like.

AIUI, BA never fully moved into T5 in the first place...some flights have always remained at other terminals.
 

Howardh

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As an aside, never worked out why UK to Gib is international rather than domestic. Yes, there would be customs issues as Gib is vat-free (or something along those lines) so you would have to go through customs but Channel Islands is domestic and returning from there you don't go through immigration but you do customs. so it can be done.

Also, back on topic-ish, the development of Gibraltar into an upmarket resort rather than a slspfash mixture of military base, locals and occasional tourists is remarkable. However it means property is becoming expensive, but should attract far more tourists and make
flights are more viable.
 

Howardh

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Ah yes, it's quite silly that BA only a few years after the opening of T5 have outgrown it, Iberia merger or not.

I suspect Gibraltar for them is a little like they seem to treat Jersey - somewhere they "have" to go from London but with a captive market so they can do whatever they like.
Hanging onto slots springs to mind, no???
 
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