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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?
- Thread starter Andy Pacer
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It's getting way off topic, but ultimately the data doesn't lie. Newspaper websites, BBC news, etc. all know who clicks on what stories on their websites, and how long they read them for. Many will even be able to tell you which elements of a page people will linger on, and there are even eye-tracking studies that look at which page elements people actually interact with. The point I'm making is that there is objective data that tells media outlets what people do and don't read/watch/listen to. I don't say that people 'don't give a fig' about public transport because it's what I think, I say it because it's what the data tells us.
Why does that matter? Because media organisations (with the arguable exception of the BBC) exist for one reason and one reason only: to get the ads they sell in front of as many of the advertisers target audience as posible. The 'news value' of a story exists only in so far is it can generate views, and therefore ad impressions. I don't like that, in fact I hate it with a passion. But, for better or worse, that's the business we're in because it's the only way we can pay the bills.
For obvious reasons of commercial sensitivity, I can't share the data I have access to, but I am telling you: 'the occasional bad news story about some disadvantaged person who gets treated badly by the railways' always, always does better than anything about congestion or short-forming. The unpalatable truth is that emotion - especially misery and pity - sells better than almost anything else.
Now, I can make a story about how taking Pacers out of service into a story about discrimination and inequality that people will read by making it about how 'this would never happen in London'. Then, it's not a public transport story any more, it's a politics story that happens to be about public transport. The issue there is that most of the news media is based in London and won't cover it because it's just not on their radar; so it's limited to the likes of the MEN and/or regional opt-out TV (e.g. Granada Reports). Whereas, 'DfT allows train companies to discriminate against people with disabilities' is a national news story.
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How many are we expecting to see withdrawn by the end of the year? If the majority are taken out of service and there is a constant reduction on a weekly basis that continues into 2020, then I am sure the political impact of keeping then on will be lessened, as people will clearly be able to see progress. There are 102 in service....can we expect all the 79 142's removed by the end of the year?
Plus a few images of pacers in the junk yard being crushed in the coming months being released will help calm people and keep the politicians happy. Easy bit of publicity for Northern...although could backfire if services are then short formed!
Plus a few images of pacers in the junk yard being crushed in the coming months being released will help calm people and keep the politicians happy. Easy bit of publicity for Northern...although could backfire if services are then short formed!
Indeed. I havent read all this thread , but as I work for Northern, Im virtually certain that some of these units will see service well into 2020. My understanding from the internal news is that the first ones should start being withdrawn late August.
Bantamzen
Established Member
You're right, we are getting way too topic so I won't dwell on this too long other than to say that there are always ways to present the data, as you've done there by mentioning how a story about Pacers turns into a "doesn't happen in London" one. However it is still a story about public transport, no matter how political it gets. I work in a very large department, with a lot of people that can present data in one way or another, so I see this all the time. I don't doubt that stories about disadvantaged people get lots of coverage, but faced with a story that effects a stranger or one that directly effects them, I would suggest most people would be more attracted to the latter.
Of course we shall see what happens next year, but trains being cancelled on a regular basis across the North, South West, Wales etc because of late running programmes and changing legislation will get a lot of public and political attention. A lot!
CaptainHaddock
Established Member
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How about the government forces Northern to give passengers a full refund if their train is formed of a pacer? Passengers already get compensation if their train is more than 15 minutes late, surely it's formed of a clapped-out, wheezing, unreliable, dirty 142 unit they have been just as much inconvenienced, if not more?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
That would be one way of managing the fallout if Pacers are kept on beyond December I suppose... but it would also make some routes effectively free to travel on: Huddersfield to Sheffield for example only sees Sprinters on weekends and occasional evenings.
I can’t help thinking that Northern are missing a trick over Pacer withdrawals.
During the last days of such as the Deltics and Westerns there were crowds of enthusiasts clamouring to ride behind the things. If this is to be the Pacers’ last summer then perhaps Northern should be doing something to earn revenue off today’s enthusiasts. Thus for example an excursion ticket over the Leeds-Morecambe route might appeal to some. Apart from the pleasant scenery on the Bentham line it offers the experience of the Pacer bouncing around on the jointed track in a nice noisy environment with the windows open. And of course passes the junk yards at Hellifield and Carnforth.
During the last days of such as the Deltics and Westerns there were crowds of enthusiasts clamouring to ride behind the things. If this is to be the Pacers’ last summer then perhaps Northern should be doing something to earn revenue off today’s enthusiasts. Thus for example an excursion ticket over the Leeds-Morecambe route might appeal to some. Apart from the pleasant scenery on the Bentham line it offers the experience of the Pacer bouncing around on the jointed track in a nice noisy environment with the windows open. And of course passes the junk yards at Hellifield and Carnforth.
Killingworth
Established Member
Hope Valley is getting more 150s but whatever runs the guard/conductors are very reluctant to protect revenue even when trains are fairly quiet. "Anyone want to buy a ticket?" was quietly heard recently. 'No thanks' seemed to be the reaction of most as they kept their heads down without producing a ticket to prove they had one. Some had just got on and I know they hadn't valid tickets because they'd just picked up promises to pay and didn't show them.
Mitchell Hurd
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I'm thinking, the 142's could go first then the 143 144 fleet - the 142's have bench seats.
When I went on a 143 from Exeter St. David's to Dawlish in June last year (10:22 this was), I thought how much more comfortable and roomier it was than the Northern 142's. I think the interior of a 143 / 144 is much more welcoming than a 142 really.
When I went on a 143 from Exeter St. David's to Dawlish in June last year (10:22 this was), I thought how much more comfortable and roomier it was than the Northern 142's. I think the interior of a 143 / 144 is much more welcoming than a 142 really.
Oh come on, you should work in the media with comments like those. If pacers has to have an extension then so be it, I was at Oxford Road recently and saw a service of a 150+142(merseyrail one also, the worse of the batch imo)and there was not exactly a mass rush to get onto the 150. Normal passengers don't really care as long as it gets them from A+B.
I think the DFT comments are a huge hint that some pacers will continue into 2020 and Northern got other problems with what to do with any remaining non compliant stock that is staying with the fleet aswell as what they are going to do with the 153s and 323s when they go off lease also. It's a right old mess it seems!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How about you starting a new thread about this particular matter.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
The original plan for Northern was for 144s to go first, starting with 10 2-car examples. I think due to their more limited operating area and the fact that not as many crews are trained on them, rather than the company simply wanting rid of them first. Whether the same order of withdrawal will remain now is another matter.
Sprinter107
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Each to their own really. I prefer the bus type bench seats in a 142, than the ones in a GWR 143. I think the worst ones of all, are the dreadful seats in the ex Merseyrail 142s. Why these were ever deemed more comfortable than the original seats, I dont know.
Mitchell Hurd
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That would make sense - less seats in a 144 than a Northern 142 as well!
Q
Correction, less seats than a 2-car 143 or 144 than a Northern 2-car 142!
'than' after 'less' should say 'in'.
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There are far more disabled people in the country than there are commuters on Pacers, and the latter group will be shrinking all the time now. The vast majority of people don't commute by train, and the vast majority of those who do, do so on trains in compliance with the law.
Extending the use of non compliant trains doesn't just affect those disabled people trying to use the lines such trains run on, or even just the disabled. It sets a precedent - businesses are free to ignore equalities legislation if it harms their profits. People will be inconvenienced by a shortage of trains yes, but the rail industry has had two decades to prepare for this - instead everyone has twiddled their thumbs hoping the disabled would just disappear and banking the cash that should have been spent making the stock fit for purpose. The TOCs and ROSCOs have brought us to this point, they shouldn't be rewarded for it - if Pacers do remain in service into 2020 I like the idea above that travel on them should be free, at Arriva's expense of course.
Fair enough, point taken. The point is, some TOCs will certainly need a derogation. In which case Northern will expect one too. It won't go down well if the north has to short form or cancel whilst London carries on running unmodified units.
Bantamzen
Established Member
This isn't about profits, its about capacity. If all the new and cascaded stock is not available at the beginning of the new year, disabled people will be even more inconvenienced when short formed units show up, or worse are cancelled altogether. Because that is what will happen, and no amount of legislation will change that. I'm sorry to say but for some it may be a choice of a Pacer now, or hang around until a next service or alternative transport can be arranged.
This is the real world, and delays to new stock are inevitable now. So a stark choice must be made, principal of law, or get people moving when they expect to.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Also, if we're in a correcting mood: because seats are 'countable', it'd be "fewer seats in a 144" rather than "less seats than a 144"
You can say there are one, two, three, etc. seats, so you say "fewer seats".
But you can't count, say, water in the same way, so you'd say "less water".
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Comparing 142s to 144s, it's easy as a layperson or enthusiast to say that the 142s should be first in line for the acetylene torch, as the worst of the Pacers are definitely 142s: the MerseyTravel examples.
On the other hand, 142s have only been written off in crashes whereas two 143s have spontaneously combusted, and the centre car of 144023 spent a long time out of traffic after a fire and was supposedly close to being written off at one point. I've lost count of how often I've been on a 3-car 144 with an engine out... and I don't think they have an "eco-mode" like the 185s!
Idle thought: how possible would it be to restart the 144Evolution programme? Could a "bare minimum requirements" version be rushed through on a few 144s before the end of the year?
This is exactly what the directors and shareholders were hoping for when they decided not to upgrade or replace their trains. It's blackmail, pure and simple. Give Northern their day in court, nationalise without compensation.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Sorry, perhaps I've been living in some alternative universe but the 195s and 331s are new trains right? I mean they look new, smell new so...
I think the argument from many people with disabilities, particularly where they are mobility issues, is that that's the situation now anyway so what would be the difference?
Seriously, as others have said, there has to be a line somewhere. This isn't just about Pacers, nor is it just about trains. The railways have had far, far longer than the vast majority of other industries to get this right. Ten years is an absolute age. If it means TOCs having to shell out for fleets of replacement, accessible taxis every day to get people to where they're going, if it means the DfT being taken to court and ruled to have contravened the Equality Act, so be it. I'll say it again, the railway has had ten years to sort this. Arriva themselves will have had the Northern franchise for nearly five years by the time January comes around. I really don't see that there can be any excuse for keeping non-compliant trains in service.
They started a program of just that after being awarded the franchise. If you want to see them in the court, then you need the government alongside them to answer for the plethora of failings that have contributed to the mess the franchise has found itself in.
Foggycorner
Member
When the Pacers finally go they should be sold off for garden sheds etc and the bench seats sold to all those who want one as a reminder of the good old days
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Northern are reported to be in negotiation with DfT about the franchise.
No doubt all the shortcomings (on both sides) will come up.
You also can't simply impose arbitrary penalties against a contract after it has been agreed, and we don't know the details of what was originally agreed.
With derogations, I think I'm right in saying there are no formal PRM derogations yet, on any class.
There seems to be debate over specific issues, with some defects considered worse than others.
At least Northern has a sporting chance now it has got the Civitys into service and nearly all its cascaded stock.
I don't believe Arriva are going to lose the franchise unless the financial issues are insurmountable (like VTEC).
Arriva is also in dispute with DfT over the way they were disqualified from the East Midlands franchise competition.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Arriva for example have had the franchise only 4 years, they ordered new from the start and aside from technical issues, its hard to see what else they could have done sooner save stare into a crystal ball when putting together their bid. The real problem here is the franchising system, where companies are expected to comply with legislation that doesn't kick in until way after their franchise ends.
The problem as always lies with the government, and as always the public and the media seem to be completely blind to it.
I hate pacers (There, i've said it). They are uncomfortable for any length of journey.
But given the choice of not getting where i want to and riding a pacer, riding the pacer wins by a long way. And I would expect most passengers would agree. I dont think anyone outside the disability lobby groups would see any problem with a 150/142 combination as the 150 would be disability compliant. And no-one is any worse off than the people on the leeds morecambe cl 144 working last Saturday
Oh, and a pacer is better than a rail replacement bus too.
I don't understand the rabid obsession with withdrawing and scrapping the pacers. Let's run them up to a point major expenditure or an exam is needed then stop them. I expect they're wary of lengthening services that will ultimately be shortened after the 1/1
Killingworth
Established Member
There are disabled and disabled! The great majority of disabled people will get minimal benefit from new stock, especially when almost every Northern service is so full at peak times that even the most able have difficulty getting aboard. Getting to the toilet? Forget it, wherever it may be.
Far more important to most users I see, mostly not even registered as disabled, is the wide and/or high gap between platform and carriage door at almost all stations. As you get older you probably notice it more. Every carriage door should have an automatically extending step down to each platform at which it will call. That'll keep the body shops busy for a few years and add lots more expense to the bottom line.
If it's all about mobility I note that my station car park has almost 130 space and 7 for blue badge users who may have one or more of very many conditions. Rarely more than 2 are used when over 100 can't even get in the car park. The disabled have given their thumbs down to rail. It's the gaps and over crowding that deters many disabled travellers, not Pacers per se.
It's a sad state we're in when journalism isn't about balanced facts but ratings. No wonder it can sometimes be called fake news. Maybe not totally fake, but very much manipulated and causing us to concentrate too much attention to peripheral issues.
Disabled people of any type want to be able to get easily to, onto, around and out again from each and every train they want to catch. That means more seats = more coaches. It also means coach, platform, access and car park alterations. Pacers are a total red herring in the greater needs of most disabled people, but to comply to the letter of the legislation means many semi-disabled people may end up suffering. It also costs a lot of money..
Far more important to most users I see, mostly not even registered as disabled, is the wide and/or high gap between platform and carriage door at almost all stations. As you get older you probably notice it more. Every carriage door should have an automatically extending step down to each platform at which it will call. That'll keep the body shops busy for a few years and add lots more expense to the bottom line.
If it's all about mobility I note that my station car park has almost 130 space and 7 for blue badge users who may have one or more of very many conditions. Rarely more than 2 are used when over 100 can't even get in the car park. The disabled have given their thumbs down to rail. It's the gaps and over crowding that deters many disabled travellers, not Pacers per se.
It's a sad state we're in when journalism isn't about balanced facts but ratings. No wonder it can sometimes be called fake news. Maybe not totally fake, but very much manipulated and causing us to concentrate too much attention to peripheral issues.
Disabled people of any type want to be able to get easily to, onto, around and out again from each and every train they want to catch. That means more seats = more coaches. It also means coach, platform, access and car park alterations. Pacers are a total red herring in the greater needs of most disabled people, but to comply to the letter of the legislation means many semi-disabled people may end up suffering. It also costs a lot of money..
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