Delay Repay declined by West Midlands railway

jrh2254 · 2 Jul 2019

west midlands railway rejected my claim saying :
‘We have not been able to approve your claim as your ticket has not been spoiled. As per the Delay Repay scheme, we ask that tickets are cut in half or defaced to prevent them from being used again.’

My ticket was an e-ticket from crosscountrytrains which I downloaded to my apple wallet. Return portion was valid for a month, and was not checked on the train. It’s the return journey I am claiming for.
Do I print it out and cut it in half or deface it and then photographed it and submit again?
How does this invalidate the ticket? I still have it in my apple wallet ?
Surely they should just scan the ticket from their end and this will invalidate the ticket.
I am a little confused by their request?
Would appreciate forum advice ?
Many thanks.

RailUK Forums

causton · 2 Jul 2019

What did you send them?

Probably, you got a PDF emailed to you with the tickets in when you bought them. Send them the PDF and they should understand that it is an e-ticket then? (maybe!)

Saperstein · 2 Jul 2019

It does ask on the form what type of ticket you hold so I’m perplexed that they just didn’t realise.

jrh2254 · 2 Jul 2019

causton said:
What did you send them

I sent a screen shot of the e-tickets ( 2 identical tickets as we were using a two together railcard).

Bletchleyite · 2 Jul 2019

I'd hit the appeal button (there is one) and in the text field put "These are e-tickets, there is no mechanism to deface them. If you would like me to edit them using Paint or similar please send an example of how you would like this done".

David57 · 2 Jul 2019

I have a copy of LNW's delay repay postal claim form in front of me, and knowhere in it does it say about defacing/spoiling tickets, just send them back.

Am I missing something?...

Bletchleyite · 2 Jul 2019

David57 said:
I have a copy of LNW's delay repay postal claim form in front of me, and knowhere in it does it say about defacing/spoiling tickets, just send them back.

Am I missing something?...

Yes. When submitting online, the agency used by all the Abellio TOCs requires you to deface the ticket so it cannot be used again following the claim, e.g. by tearing it in half.

When posting them in, there's obviously no need to do this because you couldn't reuse a ticket you've posted to them.

Mag_seven · 2 Jul 2019

jrh2254 said:
‘We have not been able to approve your claim as your ticket has not been spoiled. As per the Delay Repay scheme, we ask that tickets are cut in half or defaced to prevent them from being used again.’

I know the OP had a PDF but if it was a paper ticket are WMR really suggesting that if you send an unspoiled ticket back to them it could be used again? The only people who would be able to use it again would be someone at WMT!

Bletchleyite · 2 Jul 2019

Mag_seven said:
I know the OP had a PDF but if it was a paper ticket are WMR really suggesting that if you send an unspoiled ticket back to them it could be used again? The only people who would be able to use it again would be someone at WMT!

They accept paper tickets being submitted as an image rather than submitting the actual ticket. To mitigate against the ticket being reused for another journey (as you asked to keep it to make a claim rather than putting it in the barrier on arrival) they ask that you rip it in half. Seems reasonable to me and I don't understand why so many people seem to object to it.

They obviously do not require you to do this if you post the ticket to them.

Someone clearly hasn't read the submission properly to suggest defacing an e-ticket, though.

David57 · 2 Jul 2019

I recieved my confirmation e-mail yesterday that my claim was in the system.
Both claims (I sent them together in an envelope) have come to my e-mail, as my Daughter is disabled, and doesn't have the facility, both claims are adressed to her, and with the same reference number, is that normal?

323235 · 2 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes. When submitting online, the agency used by all the Abellio TOCs requires you to deface the ticket so it cannot be used again following the claim, e.g. by tearing it in half.

When posting them in, there's obviously no need to do this because you couldn't reuse a ticket you've posted to them.

Do they do this even if all tickets are out of date / for a specific train that departed last week and therefore cannot legitimately be reused?

yorkie · 2 Jul 2019

The people who process these claims are often clueless, and given minimal training.

What do they want you to do, open Photoshop and a layer over the top with a big "X"?

If they want to cancel an e-ticket, they can simply scan the image you sent them.

Personally I wouldn't trust them to open a can of sardines that was already open.

jrh2254 · 4 Jul 2019

I have resubmitted an image with the ticket defaced.
I had another case open with them and they have rejected the claim for exactly the same reason that I have not either torn the ticket in half or defaced the unchecked ticket. This time I bought an off peak day return !!!
I have again defaced the ticket and sent a picture back. This is bizarre !! Are they seriously suggesting I could use a day return ticket from a few weeks ago !!
Is this a scam do you think to see if people have still kept the ticket? Those that have not lose their right to delay repay on a technicality??
Thanks.

jrh2254 · 4 Jul 2019

jrh2254 said:
I have resubmitted an image with the ticket defaced.
I had another case open with them and they have rejected the claim for exactly the same reason that I have not either torn the ticket in half or defaced the unchecked ticket. This time I bought an off peak day return !!!
I have again defaced the ticket and sent a picture back. This is bizarre !! Are they seriously suggesting I could use a day return ticket from a few weeks ago !!
Is this a scam do you think to see if people have still kept the ticket? Those that have not lose their right to delay repay on a technicality??
Thanks.

This time I had a paper off peak day return ticket.

kristiang85 · 4 Jul 2019

The defacing thing is bizarre and just a waste of time. If somebody did actually want to reuse it, they can just put an acetate in front of their scan with a big cross on it, or use photoshop trickery to make it look ripped.

The cynic in me thinks they are told to reject for as loose reasons as possible and hope that a % of claimants don't bother resubmitting.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

kristiang85 said:
The defacing thing is bizarre and just a waste of time. If somebody did actually want to reuse it, they can just put an acetate in front of their scan with a big cross on it, or use photoshop trickery to make it look ripped.

The cynic in me thinks they are told to reject for as loose reasons as possible and hope that a % of claimants don't bother resubmitting.

Or (ignoring the e-ticket silliness) you could just read the instructions before submitting? It is made perfectly clear that it is necessary to deface a paper ticket at least.

How long does it take you to tear a paper ticket in half?

talltim · 4 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Or (ignoring the e-ticket silliness) you could just read the instructions before submitting? It is made perfectly clear that it is necessary to deface a paper ticket at least.

How long does it take you to tear a paper ticket in half?

You missed Kristian85s point. It is easy to pretend to deface tickets for a photograph, without actually doing so, so asking you do so is pointless

ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jul 2019

kristiang85 said:
The defacing thing is bizarre and just a waste of time. If somebody did actually want to reuse it, they can just put an acetate in front of their scan with a big cross on it, or use photoshop trickery to make it look ripped.

The cynic in me thinks they are told to reject for as loose reasons as possible and hope that a % of claimants don't bother resubmitting.

I agree - there seems to be no legitimate reason for requiring it, and certainly no basis for rejecting claims made under the NRCoT minima.

WesternLancer · 4 Jul 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I agree - there seems to be no legitimate reason for requiring it, and certainly no basis for rejecting claims made under the NRCoT minima.

Interesting to read these points about defacing. I came across the request by chance ref Scotrail.

what is of note is that their page on line (referring to submitting delay repay on line) has an FAQ 'why do I have to deface my ticket?) with an example of a paper ticket defaced - so I guess pertinent if you had a paper ticket and applied for the delay repay claim on line with a scan I guess - but can't see any mention of you being required to do this in the event of it being an e-ticket however...
see:
https://scotrail.delayrepaycompensation.com/index.cfm?action=myclaims.showfaq
(see 2nd FAQ)

But if you want to apply by post no mention of this requirement:
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/delay-repay-form-single-a4.pdf

Which I suppose is logical as if you have posted them in the only person who could fraudulently try to use them would be a postal thief.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I agree - there seems to be no legitimate reason for requiring it, and certainly no basis for rejecting claims made under the NRCoT minima.

You might expect me to differ, and I do. They ask you to tear a paper ticket in half before photographing it (I do think it's silly with an e-ticket and I suspect it was rejected in error by a new member of staff). It takes, what, 500ms to do that? Why bother yourself about it, just read the instructions and follow them and you will be paid within about a week.

I find the Delay Repay system they use to be both simple to use and very quick, unlike say VT where if it's not a simple, single through ticket journey you have to email customer services and wait a month.

jrh2254 · 4 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You might expect me to differ, and I do. They ask you to tear a paper ticket in half before photographing it (I do think it's silly with an e-ticket and I suspect it was rejected in error by a new member of staff). It takes, what, 500ms to do that? Why bother yourself about it, just read the instructions and follow them and you will be paid within about a week

But why reject a paper ticket when it’s only a day return !! I can understand it could make sense for a monthly return.
I get the feeling that day returns are rejected as a cost saving measure , hoping a percentage have lost/binned the ticket so can’t make an appeal !

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

jrh2254 said:
But why reject a paper ticket when it’s only a day return !! I can understand it could make sense for a monthly return.

But why not follow the instructions? It is not difficult and saves problems. They are clear, simple and concise and are not in any way unreasonable.

TOCs do plenty of unreasonable things, but this isn't one.

I get the feeling that day returns are rejected as a cost saving measure , hoping a percentage have lost/binned the ticket so can’t make an appeal !

More fool them. I always retain the ticket until I have received payment (they do I believe reserve the right to ask for the physical ticket to be submitted in the case of e.g. suspected fraud). Just chuck it in a box somewhere or put it behind the clock on the fireplace or something.

jrh2254 · 4 Jul 2019

kristiang85 said:
The cynic in me thinks they are told to reject for as loose reasons as possible and hope that a % of claimants don't bother resubmitting.

Agreed.

AlterEgo · 4 Jul 2019

jrh2254 said:
But why reject a paper ticket when it’s only a day return !! I can understand it could make sense for a monthly return.

Because, depending on the retailer and price of the ticket, a unblemished day return can still be returned for a refund, or used as part of an excess fare for another journey, or it may have been passed to someone else on or before the day of travel.

jrh2254 · 4 Jul 2019

AlterEgo said:
Because, depending on the retailer and price of the ticket, a unblemished day return can still be returned for a refund, or used as part of an excess fare for another journey, or it may have been passed to someone else on or before the day of travel.

Ok never thought of that , but I can’t believe anyone would be that stupid !!

AlterEgo · 4 Jul 2019

jrh2254 said:
Ok never thought of that , but I can’t believe anyone would be that stupid !!

It's been in the news today that LNER were defrauded out of over £20k thanks to someone photoshopping tickets. Delay Repay fraud is real.

_toommm_ · 4 Jul 2019

AlterEgo said:
It's been in the news today that LNER were defrauded out of over £20k thanks to someone photoshopping tickets. Delay Repay fraud is real.

For reference:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch.../train-ticket-fraudster-used-125-16521266.amp

ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jul 2019

AlterEgo said:
It's been in the news today that LNER were defrauded out of over £20k thanks to someone photoshopping tickets. Delay Repay fraud is real.

And yet as that case shows it is trivial to photoshop in an X. The requirement to deface a ticket is truly a waste of time for all but the most inept of attempted fraudsters.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
And yet as that case shows it is trivial to photoshop in an X. The requirement to deface a ticket is truly a waste of time for all but the most inept of attempted fraudsters.

A waste of approximately 500 milliseconds per ticket. Who cares?

Follow the instructions and you'll be paid pretty quickly.

It's probably a quite effective psychological deterrent, anyway - Photoshopping for fraud purposes is a bit of extra effort, just like the way LNR are using ticket barriers as a deterrent to casual non-ticket-buyers by staffing them with staff who have no remit to do anything other than ask you politely to buy a ticket from the adjacent TVM (I suspect that's why one's gone in on the bridge at MKC).

WesternLancer · 4 Jul 2019

_toommm_ said:
For reference:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch.../train-ticket-fraudster-used-125-16521266.amp

Yeah - not much incentive to do that if all you can get is rail vouchers sent to a postal address, only so many fraudlent postal addresses you could come up with before it got noticed!

Delay Repay declined by West Midlands railway

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