Locomotive hauled trains at major terminals in 1970s-1990s

UP13 · 2 Jul 2019

I'm curious about the logisics of locomotove hauled trains arriving in major terminals and getting ready for the return run. I'm aware that in steam days that terminals had run around facilities and station pilots. However I'm interested in what happened in the diesel/electric era.

I am aware that certain routes had driving trailers and worked in push-pull mode such as the class 86 and 87 expresses in and out of Euston.

So for example what happened when a class 50 arrived at Waterloo? Would a pilot drag it back to depot or would another class 50 couple at the other end and the original would return light engine once the platform cleared?

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krus_aragon · 2 Jul 2019

For Euston's working, I found it was very instructive to play signaller with SimSig. The Euston simulation is freely available as Donationware, and there are a number of timetables available that cover that era.

6Gman · 2 Jul 2019

Can't speak for Waterloo but in pre-DVT days at Euston inward loco would detach; new loco would attach at country end; after departure the released loco would run onto a loco road and subsequently back onto a later departure.

One extra train could result in a whole raft of alterations as locos "dropped back" onto different workings.

NorthWestRover · 2 Jul 2019

That's what happened in most places. If not, a shunter (either a real one or a spare mainline loco) would move the stock to release the loco which would then drop back on after the shunt loco had moved off.

306024 · 2 Jul 2019

Diagramming locomotives in the early 80s was a fascinating job. Locomotives could be vacuum brake only or dual braked (air and vacuum), steam heat, electric heat or even no heat. Rolling stock similarly could be vacuum or air braked, steam heat or electric heat, with or without air con. Matching the right locomotive to the right stock in terms of braking and heating was the first challenge, putting the more powerful locomotives on the longer trains. Diesel locomotives were more difficult simply because you had to ensure they had sufficient fuel for the journey.

The platform working was very important. You didn’t want to be moving locomotives from one side of the station to the other, especially if that required a double shunt. Terminal stations had different methods of working. Sometimes the locomotive would be shunt released, or would run round, or at busy terminals, have to wait for the incoming train to depart.

Summer Saturdays at Norwich was always fun, especially if the trains arrived from March in the wrong order, resulting in unusual locomotives having to work forward to Great Yarmouth. Additional boat train working at Liverpool St used to result in all sorts of modified diagrams too.

alistairlees · 2 Jul 2019

Liverpool lime street: another loco dropped on the rear end, whether it was a transpennine (north or south), Scottish service or Euston / Birmingham / SW service. Same for Barrow, Blackpool and Cardiff so far as I recall. The released loco that had brought the stock in then went into the headshunt (now gone) in the tunnel mouth to await its next duty. Possibly two locos could fit in the headshunt. The headshunt was only accessible from platforms 1-6 I think, not sure what happened with 7, 8 and 9 - maybe they went light to Edge Hill?

Bradford Interchange: the loco always ran round so far as I recall.

Scarborough: shunter pilot (03 08) released the stock until mid 1980s. Afterwards the incoming loco reversed the stock out to sidings, ran round there, then reversed the stock back in.

I think Manchester Piccadilly was the same as Liverpool Lime Street.

Altfish · 2 Jul 2019

At Piccadilly the Class 87/86 or whatever, went to the buffers.
There was a stabling point just outside the station with a waiting 86/87
As the first train arrived it was disconnected, the spare loco then joined the London end of the train, and at the allotted time set off for London.
The loco at the buffer end then went into the stabling point awaiting the next arrival - repeat ad nauseum,

scotraildriver · 2 Jul 2019

At Glasgow Central the loco at the buffers was detached and then "chased" the departing service up the platform and stopped at the signal at the end of the platform. It then received a proceed aspect to the loco stabling point and would then return and couple up to the next departing service. 2 seperate trains moving in one platform would never be allowed nowadays!

Peter Mugridge · 2 Jul 2019

Waterloo - the locomotive would run out light a moment behind the departing train and then shunt into one of the two short holding bays, long since converted into full length platforms.

30907 · 2 Jul 2019

UP13 said:
I'm curious about the logisics of locomotove hauled trains arriving in major terminals and getting ready for the return run. I'm aware that in steam days that terminals had run around facilities and station pilots. However I'm interested in what happened in the diesel/electric era.

I am aware that certain routes had driving trailers and worked in push-pull mode such as the class 86 and 87 expresses in and out of Euston.

So for example what happened when a class 50 arrived at Waterloo? Would a pilot drag it back to depot or would another class 50 couple at the other end and the original would return light engine once the platform cleared?

Normally there was a turnover engine at Waterloo, which might be in the parcels bays between 13 and the old 14 or in the sidings beyond the Windsor Lines platform 21. I don't remember a traditional pilot loco, but I daresay thecodd shunt-release move was performed to sort out loco workings.
Sorry, Peter has beaten me to it.
Similar would apply for Liverpool St,
Other London termini mostly also turned trains round in the platform by the end of the 70s, but that depended on some resignalling - Paddington in particular was not geared up for it.

Highlandspring · 2 Jul 2019

scotraildriver said:
At Glasgow Central the loco at the buffers was detached and then "chased" the departing service up the platform and stopped at the signal at the end of the platform. It then received a proceed aspect to the loco stabling point and would then return and couple up to the next departing service. 2 seperate trains moving in one platform would never be allowed nowadays!

It’s still authorised at Glasgow Central. I’ve seen it happen with multiple units at Perth a few times in the morning too (though it isn’t authorised there!)

hexagon789 · 2 Jul 2019

scotraildriver said:
At Glasgow Central the loco at the buffers was detached and then "chased" the departing service up the platform and stopped at the signal at the end of the platform. It then received a proceed aspect to the loco stabling point and would then return and couple up to the next departing service. 2 seperate trains moving in one platform would never be allowed nowadays!

Queen Street seems to have operated in the same manner.

6Gman · 2 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Queen Street seems to have operated in the same manner.

In some cases didn't the rear loco act as a banker through Cowlairs Tunnel?

I have a feeling that in steam days the rear loco often banked outgoing trains up Camden Bank.

Mag_seven · 2 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
Queen Street seems to have operated in the same manner.

Except if the inwards loco acted as a Cowlairs banker. It would drop off "pushing" the stock close to the top of the bank.

hexagon789 · 2 Jul 2019

6Gman said:
In some cases didn't the rear loco act as a banker through Cowlairs Tunnel?

I have a feeling that in steam days the rear loco often banked outgoing trains up Camden Bank.

I think that continued into the diesel era.

hexagon789 · 2 Jul 2019

Mag_seven said:
Except if the inwards loco acted as a Cowlairs banker. It would drop off "pushing" the stock close to the top of the bank.

I've seen reference to that, but I've only seen videos of inbound trains having the loco detach, a fresh one attach at the tunnel end, that the depart and the original loco then follow it out as far as the platform starter. The once that cleared up the bank presumably to Eastfield, I've never actually seen one banked perhaps the practice ended by the mid-80s?

Mag_seven · 2 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
I've never actually seen one banked perhaps the practice ended by the mid-80s?

I remember being banked up Cowlairs in the early 80's.

Highlandspring · 2 Jul 2019

They were still banking up the Cowlairs incline when necessary right up to sprinterisation.

xotGD · 2 Jul 2019

At Carlisle, the loco-hauled from Edinburgh via Newcastle used to arrive into one of the bay platforms. An 08 would shunt the stock into the other bay, and the train engine would then drop itself onto the front, ready for the return.

gazthomas · 2 Jul 2019

While terminals are interesting, major through stations, such as Birmingham NS, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds were just as interesting

Bevan Price · 2 Jul 2019

hexagon789 said:
I've seen reference to that, but I've only seen videos of inbound trains having the loco detach, a fresh one attach at the tunnel end, that the depart and the original loco then follow it out as far as the platform starter. The once that cleared up the bank presumably to Eastfield, I've never actually seen one banked perhaps the practice ended by the mid-80s?

I think it sometimes depended on whether or not the incoming loco needed to go to Eastfield depot; I have experienced both options - bank to Cowlairs, or bank just to end of platform.

Helvellyn · 2 Jul 2019

At Euston in the mid-1980s you had the added complication of the Class 82/83 locomotives used to haul takes of stock between Wembley and Euston. Regularly put through the carriage washers they became very weather beaten locos!

Helvellyn · 2 Jul 2019

gazthomas said:
While terminals are interesting, major through stations, such as Birmingham NS, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds were just as interesting

Indeed. At New Street you could have a CrossCountry service arrive from the North behind an AC electric. As that was being detached at the front a Class 47 or 50 would drop on the rear to take the train forward to the South West. The process would be repeated in reverse for trains heading the other way.

crosscity · 3 Jul 2019

scotraildriver said:
At Glasgow Central the loco at the buffers was detached and then "chased" the departing service up the platform and stopped at the signal at the end of the platform.

This also happened at Manchester Piccadilly.

randyrippley · 3 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
Waterloo - the locomotive would run out light a moment behind the departing train and then shunt into one of the two short holding bays, long since converted into full length platforms.

during the days of Warships and 33s, the incoming and outgoing trains used different platforms. An 09 shunter would draw the coaches out with the incoming train engine close behind. The 09 then shunted the coaches into the outgoing platform, while the loco went over to the refueling point on the north side of the approach. Another loco would back onto the coaches and become outgoing train engine.
When the 50s arrived, they had long range tanks so there was usually no need to refuel, so there was no need to release the engine

Cricketer8for9 · 3 Jul 2019

What happened at London Bridge (Central side) when there were still Class 33s on East Grinstead and Uckfield peak hour extras?

hexagon789 · 3 Jul 2019

Mag_seven said:
I remember being banked up Cowlairs in the early 80's.

As I say having never seen it I can only make assumptions based on videos.

Bevan Price said:
I think it sometimes depended on whether or not the incoming loco needed to go to Eastfield depot; I have experienced both options - bank to Cowlairs, or bank just to end of platform.

Didn't realise they would 'bank' just within the length of a platform.

30907 · 3 Jul 2019

Cricketer8for9 said:
What happened at London Bridge (Central side) when there were still Class 33s on East Grinstead and Uckfield peak hour extras?

The released loco dropped back onto the next departure. 5 locos needed for 4 trains.

Ash Bridge · 3 Jul 2019

Altfish said:
At Piccadilly the Class 87/86 or whatever, went to the buffers.
There was a stabling point just outside the station with a waiting 86/87
As the first train arrived it was disconnected, the spare loco then joined the London end of the train, and at the allotted time set off for London.
The loco at the buffer end then went into the stabling point awaiting the next arrival - repeat ad nauseum,

Yes that's as I remember it too, although I think there were a few exceptions such as the usually 37 hauled Harwich Boat Train, the 2-3? times daily Piccadilly-St Pancras Peak hauled services, the summer Sats. Great Yarmouth (24/25/31etc.) and just possibly the electric hauled Cardiff services, the loco ran round on all of these, although I'm open to any correction here....

d9009alycidon · 3 Jul 2019

scotraildriver said:
At Glasgow Central the loco at the buffers was detached and then "chased" the departing service up the platform and stopped at the signal at the end of the platform. It then received a proceed aspect to the loco stabling point and would then return and couple up to the next departing service. 2 seperate trains moving in one platform would never be allowed nowadays!

...and it was a strange hangover from pre-nationalisation days that even in the 1970s the locomotives off the WCML expresses went to Polmadie for servicing, but the locos used on the St Pancras/Nottingham/Leeds via the GSWR and Settle and Carlisle went to Corkerhill!

Locomotive hauled trains at major terminals in 1970s-1990s

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