4 Day week Sunday inside roster

Hi folks just looking for what others do with the 4 day week Sunday inclusive. I am trying to figure out a roster/s that would work with a R/D pattern for potential upcoming negotiations. So it is acceptable for the company as well as the workforce. Last one I thought of was;
r/d wk1 m/t/w
wk2 w/th/f
wk3 f/s/sn
However don’t think this would work due to the shortfall on a W and F but may work over a larger number of drivers not sure

Many thanks for all ideas/input

A lot of companies don't have 4 on and 3 off. You may have 1 off or 2 and every few weeks get 5 off say. I have seen a roster for a different toc to mine that does actually do a 4 day week, but you don't get the 3 off together, so you might have Monday and Tuesday off, then Sunday off etc.

You can't have a fixed repeating rest day pattern with sundays inside. What it needs is the LDC to be all over it like a rash to ensure a fair spread. It also depends on how many trains your TOC runs at weekends compared to weekdays as that can vary massively too.

We had a 16 week pattern with Sundays inside.

ComUtoR said:

We had a 16 week pattern with Sundays inside.

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Obviously if you spread it over enough weeks you can have a repeating pattern, but if the number of jobs on a sunday is less it creates an imbalance. A 16 week repeating pattern seems a bit pointless. Better effort would be spent grouping rest days and getting as many Saturdays and sundays together as possible. If there are less trains at weekends then, unless you book up needless spares, you will never be able to balance out the week properly.

We broadly kept our fixed three week repeating rest day pattern, the tweak being that where there is a booked Sunday (2 in 6), an additional rest day is provided somewhere in the same week (distributed equally over the course of the roster). This does mean that there’s now a few isolated single rest days (four in total, all Mondays or Wednesdays), the other eight being attached to either the following long weekend or on either side of the pair of midweek rest days, but it does ensure that a four-day week is maintained.

Is not the best method to "bank" a Sunday and average them out over the roster period with a week of rest days every 4 Sundays worked?

You retain the standard Mo/Tu - We/Th - Fr/Sa rest day pattern cycle every 3 weeks, and then every once in a while you can throw in a week of rest days?

bunnahabhain said:

Is not the best method to "bank" a Sunday and average them out over the roster period with a week of rest days every 4 Sundays worked?

You retain the standard Mo/Tu - We/Th - Fr/Sa rest day pattern cycle every 3 weeks, and then every once in a while you can throw in a week of rest days?

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You'd probably go over your average 35 or 37 hour week for the weeks where you're banking Sundays as extra.

bunnahabhain said:

Is not the best method to "bank" a Sunday and average them out over the roster period with a week of rest days every 4 Sundays worked?

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There is a TOC that does something similar but for the life of my I can't think who. They work a 5 day week vice 4 and bank a day. Then add that as a week off as booked in the roster. It still kind of relies on people working and being able to take that week as booked.

I tend to live by accepting the rough with the smooth and the roster can be a blessing and a curse. I like working a 4 day week and don't work rest days. If you have a 4 day week you got more of a chance to get a rest day on and many would prefer that.

It's true, you can't please everyone.

Yes I did think it would be difficult to get what is asked. With regards to jobs on Sunday comparing the rest of the week the idea on the company’s front is to have the same service sat/sun therefore same amount of work as through the week. I like the idea of banking a Sunday but as said it would most likely take you over your weekly maximum hours therefore tomnick idea being more likely. The roster is one of the more important parts of the job arguably the most important as this is what creates the work/home life balance.

We can only negotiate on Sunday’s once so need to get it right.

On a side note obviously there will be negotiations for pay and T+C’s are there any of you who went through this and regretted giving up certain things or glad you did etc may have another thread for this but thought ask here.

bunnahabhain said:

Is not the best method to "bank" a Sunday and average them out over the roster period with a week of rest days every 4 Sundays worked?

You retain the standard Mo/Tu - We/Th - Fr/Sa rest day pattern cycle every 3 weeks, and then every once in a while you can throw in a week of rest days?

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It’s a nice idea, but I think it’d cause more problems for those with permanent swaps who rely on there being a consistent four-day week so that their swaps always balance out?

I work a five day week with a week of rest days every fifth week. It still balances out earlies and lates, but you just miss one and do two work weeks of lates with a week off in the middle, and then the same on earlies five weeks later.

Our Sundays are outside, but there are talks happening to try and change that so obviously our rest day pattern will change at some point. I’m hopeful that we’ll still be able to bank a rest day each week to still have the weeks of rest days, because they’re frankly brilliant. I’m always guaranteed a week off in the school holidays, and I get 15 weeks off (including annual leave) each year. It makes holiday planning and the like so much easier!

I’m on a 35 hour week contract, but obviously our average working week is 43 3/4 hours because of the rest day week. But it all balances out in the end so I’m quite happy with it.

Tomnick how did your roster work?

East Midlands Trains Sundays inside roster at Derby:

10 week repeating pattern of rest days.
Gives 1 in 2 Saturdays off and 1 in 2 Sundays off. These are always together as a long weekend of 4 or 5 days grouped together. The other rest days are usually a minimum of 3, but there is one occasion of 2 which is the one week where only two rest days occur. The missing rest day that week is given back the following week. This gives a better 'weekends off' situation than 3 rest days every week. You'd need to use +/-1 annual leave day if you had an annual leave week on one of those weeks.

Sometimes in this roster the shift change from AMs to PMs and vice versa occurs midweek at the rest days. This slows down the body clock change required, but might meet resistance as some prefer shift change to occur at at the weekend which makes things difficult when a Sunday becomes a 'rest day' and a minimum amount of 32 hours rest becomes a requirement.


South West Trains Farnham roster:

Rest Day pattern repeats every 8 weeks. Has 1in2* Saturdays off and 5in8 Sundays off.

*However, the last few lines don't quite fit the pattern so as to accommodate additional Saturday turns.


London Overground New Cross Gate I believe:


A staggered week of rest days Thursday to Wednesday every 4 weeks. Mostly every other weekend off although the pattern alters near the bottom to accommodate weekend work. Random single rest days for the remainder.
There are also (It isn't a good picture I'm afraid) several weeks of the same shift sometimes put together (3 or 4 weeks of mornings for example).


Personally, I like the Derby one as it is a repeating pattern and every weekend (1in2) is a long weekend of a minimum of 4 days. This is better than the 2 out of 3 Saturdays they were working before when they had Sundays outside the working week, and finishing late on Saturday and starting early on Monday with a Sunday off inbetween with which they couldn't do much!

I would get a "maximum of 50% weekends worked" included in your negotiations if you can. Chiltern (who currently have Sundays outside the working week) have a "50% of Saturdays must be rest days" clause, and London Overground (Sundays inside) have a "maximum 26 Sundays rostered per year clause". London Overground originally had 19 per year written into their conditions and got a big pay rise and a reduction from an average 4.25 to 4 day week keeping the same average turn length (separate to a good multi-year deal) to go to 26. If they hadn't had a figure to be rostered per year they wouldn't have got anything extra at all!

Are your membership to expect working 19 Sundays out of 30, like LNER at Edinburgh, or could they have more weekends off initially but then have them taken away over the years with no negotiation. This has become an issue at London Underground.
So get a figure on weekend work in your negotiations is what I'd recommend. Then they'll know what to expect and have safeguards in place.

Very good many thanks have written these rosters down in basic paper format to share with fellow colleagues and I think I’m with you very much like the derby roster.
I have quoted whoosh last 2 paragraphs to share with my LLC as I think this is something the company would definitely ‘sneak’ in

Kirkk007 said:

Tomnick how did your roster work?

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The pink days are the additional rest days to balance out a Sunday worked (the complicating factor being that some people still don’t have Sundays inside, so have to work those pink days). I prefer the fixed three-week cycle because it always lines up nicely with friends (in the same grade and other grades) who are on the same pattern. I don’t know how much further it can be stretched if more Sunday turns are required though.

Kirkk007 said:

Hi folks just looking for what others do with the 4 day week Sunday inclusive. I am trying to figure out a roster/s that would work with a R/D pattern for potential upcoming negotiations. So it is acceptable for the company as well as the workforce. Last one I thought of was;
r/d wk1 m/t/w
wk2 w/th/f
wk3 f/s/sn
However don’t think this would work due to the shortfall on a W and F but may work over a larger number of drivers not sure

Many thanks for all ideas/input

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Hi.

If you are going down a 4 day week route with Sunday’s inside then basically you need to change your thought process regards Sunday’s entirely. Options could be 5 on 4 Off (lates) 5 on 3 off ( earlies). Also 4 on 4 off but this would involve longer days say around 10 hour shifts but 2 PNBs in the diagram. Also I’d push for an enhancement on night shifts. These are shifts that I have seen worked outside of the railway. Try take a look at Eurostar’s roster. Not bad in my opinion. Just chucking in a few ideas. Trouble is nobody likes change and that’s your battle. Good luck.

Can't take credit but someone proposed for us to keep our normal roster work the sundays as they currently are and bank the additional (hours/rest days and have a week of rest days week 13) Compared to what was tabled for the 34hr week by the business this was the better option in my opinion.

If a driver doesn't like, or want to Sundays then yr in the wrong job, you know when you joined the railway its a 7 day week operation and if anyone doesn't like it then sod off and get a mon-fri office job on half the pay. Plenty of others to take your place.

Martin1504 said:

If a driver doesn't like, or want to Sundays then yr in the wrong job, you know when you joined the railway its a 7 day week operation and if anyone doesn't like it then sod off and get a mon-fri office job on half the pay. Plenty of others to take your place.

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The jealousy is strong in this one......

If you read the thread you'd realise that nobody is saying they won't work Sundays, merely discussing how best to accommodate them within a roster.

I'm reading this thread with much interest. My own TOC has pledged a massive increase in Sunday services which will probably require taking Sundays inside (they're outside but committed at present for drivers and guards). Lots of rumours about how they're planning to go about it. All we know for definite is that they're increasing the headcount across the board.

All I can say is look at the NHS, Emergency services, military amongst many... we are very well compensated for all we do on the railways (especially drivers).... look at the real world outside the railways and the poor poor pay and conditions that are experienced by many. Sometimes we need to appreciate more what we have instead of wanting more... but it’s human nature I guess... to not be content / satisfied. Times change, and we should try and embrace change a bit more as oppose to trying to obstruct it for gains.

TTDARL said:

All I can say is look at the NHS, Emergency services, military amongst many... we are very well compensated for all we do on the railways (especially drivers).... look at the real world outside the railways and the poor poor pay and conditions that are experienced by many. Sometimes we need to appreciate more what we have instead of wanting more... but it’s human nature I guess... to not be content / satisfied. Times change, and we should try and embrace change a bit more as oppose to trying to obstruct it for gains.

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This thread is entirely about trying to embrace change by bringing Sundays inside the working week, with various roster options presented. No-one here has advocated trying to obstruct it for gains. What gives you that idea?

Martin1504 said:

If a driver doesn't like, or want to Sundays then yr in the wrong job, you know when you joined the railway its a 7 day week operation and if anyone doesn't like it then sod off and get a mon-fri office job on half the pay. Plenty of others to take your place.

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Many signed up without them in the working week, others without them committed, some told they wouldn't be able to get rid of them fast enough and others with the acceptance that you'd work a certain amount.

Just because the industry now deems this must change, that doesn't mean drivers should sit back and take whatever is thrown at them, giving up spending time with their families to be compensated by a Wednesday sat at home on their own. The job already comes with enough sacrifices.

Tomnick said:

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This is the difficulty of swapping shifts at the weekend with Sundays inside the working week. I was under the impression that 32 hours had to be given for a (single) rest day, which a Sunday off with Sundays in the working week becomes. I thought a Sunday rest day in the working week had to then play by the rules of other rest days - 24 hours (a complete day) off plus 8 hours rest - not be a law unto itself like it was when it "didn't count" because it was outside the working week.

On Tomnick's roster you can see that the Saturday on line 4 commences at 13:28 for a 9h57 duration, so finishes at 23:25. Yet the Monday on line 5 starts at 05:40 which is only 30h15. There are other occasions in the roster where 32 hours isn't met as well for Saturday to Monday, but most others are only out by a few minutes.

Aivilo said:

Can't take credit but someone proposed for us to keep our normal roster work the sundays as they currently are and bank the additional (hours/rest days and have a week of rest days week 13) Compared to what was tabled for the 34hr week by the business this was the better option in my opinion.

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The same is true in Aivilo's roster. (See post #18) Line 8 finishes at 00:45 Sunday morning and Monday line 9 is 04:30 spare (which could be allocated 04:06 if the person on Line 11 is on leave/off sick/medical/rules etc) 27 hours 45 minutes, or 27 hours 21 minutes if allocated to that job.


There maybe local agreements to accommodate these, but one has to ask if quality time off has been achieved here when you consider two periods of sleep need to be taken in that time. It's not really a proper day off!


It's still better than finishing at 06:00 on the Sunday morning and being back at 04- something on the Monday, which I have had to endure in my career on a Sundays outside roster though!

I’m not aware of any general requirement for a rest day to be rostered with at least 32 hours clear, but it’s a sound principle on the basis of trying to get two periods of sleep in (24 hours plus another 8 hour sleep) and it seems to be a common part of rostering principles that the unions have agreed with various employers. We never got it when Sunday wasn’t a rest day though, and the clear preference locally was to keep it that way rather than mess with the rest day pattern (and probably lose the regular long weekends) or to adjust the changeovers from lates to earlies (which would probably have to be done over the Wed/Thu rest days instead, which would cause havoc for the significant number with permanent swaps). They’ve mitigated it by trying to match the latest finishes on Saturdays with the latest ‘early’ starts on Mondays (and so on). That’s the way that most of us want it and it’s good to see that taken into account!

whoosh said:

This is the difficulty of swapping shifts at the weekend with Sundays inside the working week. I was under the impression that 32 hours had to be given for a (single) rest day, which a Sunday off with Sundays in the working week becomes. I thought a Sunday rest day in the working week had to then play by the rules of other rest days - 24 hours (a complete day) off plus 8 hours rest - not be a law unto itself like it was when it "didn't count" because it was outside the working week.

On Tomnick's roster you can see that the Saturday on line 4 commences at 13:28 for a 9h57 duration, so finishes at 23:25. Yet the Monday on line 5 starts at 05:40 which is only 30h15. There are other occasions in the roster where 32 hours isn't met as well for Saturday to Monday, but most others are only out by a few minutes.




The same is true in Aivilo's roster. (See post #18) Line 8 finishes at 00:45 Sunday morning and Monday line 9 is 04:30 spare (which could be allocated 04:06 if the person on Line 11 is on leave/off sick/medical/rules etc) 27 hours 45 minutes, or 27 hours 21 minutes if allocated to that job.


There maybe local agreements to accommodate these, but one has to ask if quality time off has been achieved here when you consider two periods of sleep need to be taken in that time. It's not really a proper day off!


It's still better than finishing at 06:00 on the Sunday morning and being back at 04- something on the Monday, which I have had to endure in my career on a Sundays outside roster though!

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Not aware of any rules against it. My link has several sub 30hrs rest days over a Sunday, the shortest of which is 27:36 (there are others that could feasibly be less, as the Monday morning is a spare turn and we have 3 hour movement off those). It's unpleasant, but it's what they pay us for I guess. I'd much rather have the swap from lates to earlies mid week rather then at the weekend, as some of our other depots do, but a lot of people at my place have permanent late/early swaps and that would complicate matters.

Tomnick said:

I’m not aware of any general requirement for a rest day to be rostered with at least 32 hours clear, but it’s a sound principle on the basis of trying to get two periods of sleep in (24 hours plus another 8 hour sleep) and it seems to be a common part of rostering principles that the unions have agreed with various employers. We never got it when Sunday wasn’t a rest day though, and the clear preference locally was to keep it that way rather than mess with the rest day pattern (and probably lose the regular long weekends) or to adjust the changeovers from lates to earlies (which would probably have to be done over the Wed/Thu rest days instead, which would cause havoc for the significant number with permanent swaps). They’ve mitigated it by trying to match the latest finishes on Saturdays with the latest ‘early’ starts on Mondays (and so on). That’s the way that most of us want it and it’s good to see that taken into account!

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The 32 hour rule is certainly part of swr drivers t&c though think all depots have minimum 2 consecutive FD in linecwith aslef charter.

theironroad said:

The 32 hour rule is certainly part of swr drivers t&c though think all depots have minimum 2 consecutive FD in linecwith aslef charter.

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I’m fairly sure that it’s in ours too, but locally it’s been agreed to disregard it for Sundays provided that the rest periods are kept as close to 32 hours as possible to avoid butchering a well established and popular rest day pattern.

Martin1504 said:

If a driver doesn't like, or want to Sundays then yr in the wrong job, you know when you joined the railway its a 7 day week operation and if anyone doesn't like it then sod off and get a mon-fri office job on half the pay. Plenty of others to take your place.

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Please do us all a favor and take your own advice.

Not heard something so ill placed and moronic for a long time.

Can’t believe how much negativity has been put into this thread by a couple of people, as has been said if you look at my original post I’m asking for possibilities for rostering when Sunday’s are introduced, at no point have I said that I do not want Sunday as part of the week so why bring in the negative comments,
my mother always told me if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say nothing at all.
For everyone else who has given good positive information I have taken all the comments on board and came up with a few different rostering ideas all with some sort of flaw but nothing too major.
I have a question for this who work the roster that gets a week off every so often after ‘banking’ days, what happens if your weeks A/L is on that week of R/D?