LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

Bletchleyite · 3 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
but they are. Our service has become a lot less punctual. The delays are not often huge but they are, anecdotally, more common than previously.

And outright cancellations (or running fast to catch up time) are now becoming quite common when they were previously near enough completely unknown, going right back to Silverlink days.

The service has been significantly downgraded in quality; the Southern service is now more reliable than LNR and that is saying something.

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DarloRich · 3 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And outright cancellations (or running fast to catch up time) are now becoming quite common when they were previously near enough completely unknown, going right back to Silverlink days.

The service has been significantly downgraded in quality; the Southern service is now more reliable than LNR and that is saying something.

The new timetable is far to intricate. I get what they are trying to do and actually support but it does not seem to work. For instance the 1722 from MKC now comes form Liverpool not Birmingham. It has even more opportunity to pick up delay. It used to be a solid connection on to the Vale. Now it is far too risky.

pt_mad · 3 Jul 2019

700007 said:
I believe I made this recommendation earlier, but I honestly think splitting it again would solve a lot of matters and also make the diagrams self contained.

2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street

2tph London Euston to Tring

1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central

1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street

2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street

2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley

1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent

1tph London Euston to Crewe

Not sure there'd be space at New Street now for the 2 X terminators from Rugeley and the one from Crewe. Don't forget slots have been re-used and also gone to the extra Herefords and extra hourly Shrewsbury.

Also is it known that Wolverhampton actually has space for two hourly terminators and recovery time?

Plus the extra paths needed between Birmingham and Wolverhampton as you'd have 2 X extra and hour in each direction I think?

Politically I'm not sure Stone would want their London link taking away without resistance either?

sd0733 · 3 Jul 2019

pt_mad said:
Not sure there'd be space at New Street now for the 2 X terminators from Rugeley and the one from Crewe. Don't forget slots have been re-used and also gone to the extra Herefords and extra hourly Shrewsbury.

Also is it known that Wolverhampton actually has space for two hourly terminators and recovery time?

If there really is nowhere to put a terminator the Crewe could go to Rugeley. Coming from Crewe arrives at xx:22 with the rugeley leaving at xx:21 but the crewe has some standing time at Wolves so could be tweaked a little.
In the other direction there is an arrival from Rugeley at xx:10 that could hopefully be squeezed through Aston to form the xx:20 to Crewe. It would have a slightly longer lay over and no coupling/uncoupling so could work

pt_mad · 3 Jul 2019

sd0733 said:
If there really is nowhere to put a terminator the Crewe could go to Rugeley. Coming from Crewe arrives at xx:22 with the rugeley leaving at xx:21 but the crewe has some standing time at Wolves so could be tweaked a little.
In the other direction there is an arrival from Rugeley at xx:10 that could hopefully be squeezed through Aston to form the xx:20 to Crewe. It would have a slightly longer lay over and no coupling/uncoupling so could work

Unless the standing time at Wolverhampton is waiting for it's path? If so it probably couldn't leave any sooner?

There's still the problem of political stakeholders at Stone wanting an hourly London link.

bionic · 3 Jul 2019

It's a bit of a quirky franchise really, I guess when it was Silverlink at least they could concentrate on the London commuters and not worry about what was going on at Rugeley or Liverpool. Are there plans to actually split LNR and WMT or are the brands just for PR purposes?

DavidGrain · 3 Jul 2019

bionic said:
It's a bit of a quirky franchise really, I guess when it was Silverlink at least they could concentrate on the London commuters and not worry about what was going on at Rugeley or Liverpool. Are there plans to actually split LNR and WMT or are the brands just for PR purposes?

My understanding is that the franchise will split at the next tender and it is WMT's responsibility to split into two operationally so that the new franchises will be running from day 1. The WM franchise will then become the responsibility of the West Midlands Rail Executive and the LNR side will be a DfT responsibility possibly going to the West Coast Partnership. We are told that the staff have not yet been split but they are wearing different uniforms.

The Planner · 3 Jul 2019

700007 said:
I believe I made this recommendation earlier, but I honestly think splitting it again would solve a lot of matters and also make the diagrams self contained.

2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street

2tph London Euston to Tring

1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central

1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street

2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street

2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley

1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent

1tph London Euston to Crewe

DavidGrain said:
Have you thought this through on the Stour Valley Line?

2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street
1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street (unless it reverses in New Street)
2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley (Unless they reverse in New Street)
1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent
2tph Cross Country to Manchester
1tph Virgin to Wolverhampton and further north
1tph Transport for Wales
2tph Birmingham to Shrewsbury
2tph Walsall Birmingham Wolverhampton

You also have to consider stopping patterns as 2tph are all stations. I have included trains to Rugeley as they usually take the Soho Loop and when they do they need to cross the Up Line. London to Walsall would require either a reverse in New Street or the Soho Loop.
Good job they have replaced the Tipton level crossing with an underpass

You appear to have added an extra train between International and New St? That isn't working.

sd0733 · 3 Jul 2019

pt_mad said:
Unless the standing time at Wolverhampton is waiting for it's path? If so it probably couldn't leave any sooner?

There's still the problem of political stakeholders at Stone wanting an hourly London link.

I believe there is one where an ex Shrewsbury VT leaves at 04 but apart from that I've never seen anything leave while we stand there and we work them a lot.

Yes forgot about the user groups on the wobble.

Ianno87 · 4 Jul 2019

sd0733 said:
I believe there is one where an ex Shrewsbury VT leaves at 04 but apart from that I've never seen anything leave while we stand there and we work them a lot.

Yes forgot about the user groups on the wobble.

That's because the previous train is busy calling at Coseley (ex-Liverpool), so can't be seen at Wolves...but is only about 5 minutes headway in front after that (against 4 minimum for planning)

RealTrains07 · 4 Jul 2019

bionic said:
It's a bit of a quirky franchise really, I guess when it was Silverlink at least they could concentrate on the London commuters and not worry about what was going on at Rugeley or Liverpool. Are there plans to actually split LNR and WMT or are the brands just for PR purposes?

They should be split soon both are way to mixed together at the moment, it can get confusing for some iam sure

RealTrains07 · 4 Jul 2019

pt_mad said:
Unless the standing time at Wolverhampton is waiting for it's path? If so it probably couldn't leave any sooner?

There's still the problem of political stakeholders at Stone wanting an hourly London link.

Stakeholders who think they are more important than every other commuter

If we can split the service we could then have a better chance at getting an additional service? Once every couple hours alongside the current birmingham one?

VT 390 · 4 Jul 2019

pt_mad said:
There's still the problem of political stakeholders at Stone wanting an hourly London link.

Is it not still quicker to change at Stafford for either Virgin or London Northwestern services to London anyway and I would imagine very few passengers will go the full way via Birmingham so I do not see the problem with Stone loosing it's direct London services. If a direct link has to be maintained then maybe just 1 or 2 peak services could run via Birmingham.

bionic · 4 Jul 2019

If the Chase line and the Birmingham - Crewe via Stokes are supposedly part of WMT rather than LNR then why are they running as LNR services? The whole thing seems a bit too joined up to be split down the middle with too many areas now a middle ground that could be one or the other.

RealTrains07 said:
They should be split soon both are way to mixed together at the moment, it can get confusing for some iam sure

sufian123 · 4 Jul 2019

VT 390 said:
Is it not still quicker to change at Stafford for either Virgin or London Northwestern services to London anyway and I would imagine very few passengers will go the full way via Birmingham so I do not see the problem with Stone loosing it's direct London services. If a direct link has to be maintained then maybe just 1 or 2 peak services could run via Birmingham.

It was people of stone, kidsgrove and Alsager who fought to keep a direct service to Euston.

VT 390 · 4 Jul 2019

sufian123 said:
It was people of stone, kidsgrove and Alsager who fought to keep a direct service to Euston.

I know that but why? If it can't be via the Trent Valley line it is going to be quicker to change at Stoke or Stafford. Also they gained a Birmingham service, If there must be a direct London service then why can't it just be 1 or 2 peak extensions to the Birmingham services?

sufian123 · 4 Jul 2019

VT 390 said:
I know that but why? If it can't be via the Trent Valley line it is going to be quicker to change at Stoke or Stafford. Also they gained a Birmingham service, If there must be a direct London service then why can't it just be 1 or 2 peak extensions to the Birmingham services?

What your saying is logical. People in stone, kidsgrove and Alsager, mps and local want the hourly service to continue. Despite its longer. More seats from new st, what was desperately needed.

Baxenden Bank · 4 Jul 2019

Regarding stations on 'the wobble' and service to London.

These stations were promised a single change at Stafford, onto a LNR service, which would be no slower than that previously available on the direct Trent Valley service. This was potentially possible due to the timings of the trains at that time and the waiting time at Stafford on the old service.

A change to Virgin may be quicker overall (it probably was previously) but it is rather more expensive.

The failure of the industry to deliver this franchise commitment is the reason for the linking of the Crewe - Birmingham service to a Birmingham - London service. A disguised mistruth that the idiots fell for because they didn't read between the lines! "Stations will still have a direct London service" - and it's true, they all have. The fact that it now takes 3.5 hours, compared to the previous 2.5 hours, and the 1.5 hours offered by Virgin shows the contempt in which passengers outside the big cities are held. Stoke-on-Trent / North Staffs / East Cheshire is of peripheral interest to decision makers in Birmingham for the West Midlands and Manchester for the northern powerlesshouse.

A solution would be to offer tickets at 'similar to LM' prices for use on LNR/VT services changing at Stafford.

I'm not holding my breath.

sd0733 · 4 Jul 2019

They can change at Stafford onto the via Tamworth service at pretty much the old.timings, I believe all Stoke to London and possibly other fares were reduced by 10% at the timetable change too.

E6007 · 4 Jul 2019

Some minor changes to Euston services coming up - see https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/improving-may-2019-timetable

Colleague of mine will be pleased - often failed to board the 07:10 ex Northampton at Kings Langley due to lack of room. The equivalent service prior to the May 2019 TT change, the 07:21 ex Milton Keynes was 12 car.

Baxenden Bank · 4 Jul 2019

sd0733 said:
They can change at Stafford onto the via Tamworth service at pretty much the old.timings, I believe all Stoke to London and possibly other fares were reduced by 10% at the timetable change too.

I'll be honest. I haven't looked. I looked at the through times out of interest but not the connections nor the fares.
No intention of going to or via London for the foreseeable future, and if I did it wouldn't be by LNR - I want the train to turn up and for me to get there! (and back).

Baxenden Bank · 4 Jul 2019

Today:
9K24 (1215 ex Euston), 21 minutes late at Stafford so sent straight up the mainline, arrived 3 minutes late at Crewe, perhaps reasonable.
9K32 (1615 ex Euston, 1820 ex New Street) a mere 8 minutes late at Stafford, yet also sent straight up the mainline to Crewe arriving 10 minutes early.

The trains have a 28 minute lay-over at Crewe but the staff don't (or didn't use to).

Better than Saturday I suppose, last train southbound from Crewe via the wobble at 1602 rather than 2102!

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

E6007 said:
Some minor changes to Euston services coming up - see https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/improving-may-2019-timetable

Colleague of mine will be pleased - often failed to board the 07:10 ex Northampton at Kings Langley due to lack of room. The equivalent service prior to the May 2019 TT change, the 07:21 ex Milton Keynes was 12 car.

They seem to be removing 8 coaches but adding 4 - where are the other 4 going?

These tweaks round the edges will do nothing to solve the root problem - that the timetable is utterly unworkable and needs a full return to the drawing board.

The two evening Watford shuttles - are those just running a train in service that's normally ECS?

sufian123 · 4 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They seem to be removing 8 coaches but adding 4 - where are the other 4 going?

These tweaks round the edges will do nothing to solve the root problem - that the timetable is utterly unworkable and needs a full return to the drawing board.

The two evening Watford shuttles - are those just running a train in service that's normally ECS?

Yes the ECS will now become a service to give relief at peak. each carriages that being removed will be put into other services. That won’t solve anything

RealTrains07 · 4 Jul 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
Today:
9K24 (1215 ex Euston), 21 minutes late at Stafford so sent straight up the mainline, arrived 3 minutes late at Crewe, perhaps reasonable.
9K32 (1615 ex Euston, 1820 ex New Street) a mere 8 minutes late at Stafford, yet also sent straight up the mainline to Crewe arriving 10 minutes early.

The trains have a 28 minute lay-over at Crewe but the staff don't (or didn't use to).

Better than Saturday I suppose, last train southbound from Crewe via the wobble at 1602 rather than 2102!

Saturday timetable in general is lacking in evening services compared to monday to friday

E6007 · 5 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They seem to be removing 8 coaches but adding 4 - where are the other 4 going?

These tweaks round the edges will do nothing to solve the root problem - that the timetable is utterly unworkable and needs a full return to the drawing board.

The two evening Watford shuttles - are those just running a train in service that's normally ECS?

I agree with you about the root problem but at least they're solving one problem!

0414 Northampton to London Euston: 4 carriages (previously 8 carriages)
0634 Watford Junction to London Euston: 4 carriages (previously 8 carriages)
0710 Northampton to London Euston: 12 carriages (previously 8 carriages)
0712 Euston to Tring: 8 carriages (previously 12 carriages)
0805 Tring to Euston: 8 carriages (previously 12 carriages)
0834 Euston to Tring: 12 carriages (previously 8 carriages)
0926 Tring to Euston: 12 carriages (previously 8 carriages)

0414 Northampton runs empty to 0609 ex Euston to form 06:34 Watford. That combines with 0553 Northampton to form 0712 Euston to Tring. So 4 coaches off diagram starting 0414 being moved to 0710 diagram

E6007 · 5 Jul 2019

The evening change looks a bit silly. Today, both 1650 and 1654 ex Euston make the same stops, particularly both call at Apsley but not Kings Langley. Both run 4 minutes (planning rules) apart. From next week, the 1650 will call at Kings Langley but not Apsley. This will delay the 1654 which will then be late at Apsley and onwards.

The better solution would have been for the 1654 to call at Kings Langley and not Apsley.

RailWonderer · 5 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
but they are. Our service has become a lot less punctual. The delays are not often huge but they are, anecdotally, more common than previously.

I was referring to frequency per hour but yes, we all feel the delays and cancellations, wherever you are on LNR, from Bletchley to Bloxwich. 1tph could still start/end at Brum with the other 2 going to Int’l or Wolves or Walsall, if they looked at the paths you could find a way to make it work, even if that means retiming an XC or two. Nothing huge, just something practical so that 4 hour journey times using the same train aren’t reducing service quality.

Baxenden Bank · 5 Jul 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
Regarding stations on 'the wobble' and service to London.

These stations were promised a single change at Stafford, onto a LNR service, which would be no slower than that previously available on the direct Trent Valley service. This was potentially possible due to the timings of the trains at that time and the waiting time at Stafford on the old service.

A change to Virgin may be quicker overall (it probably was previously) but it is rather more expensive.

The failure of the industry to deliver this franchise commitment is the reason for the linking of the Crewe - Birmingham service to a Birmingham - London service. A disguised mistruth that the idiots fell for because they didn't read between the lines! "Stations will still have a direct London service" - and it's true, they all have. The fact that it now takes 3.5 hours, compared to the previous 2.5 hours, and the 1.5 hours offered by Virgin shows the contempt in which passengers outside the big cities are held. Stoke-on-Trent / North Staffs / East Cheshire is of peripheral interest to decision makers in Birmingham for the West Midlands and Manchester for the northern powerlesshouse.

I'll quote myself in order to correct myself!
Having checked a journey planner, it does generally offer a 'same as previous' journey time from N Staffs to London with a single change at Stafford. Whether that connection is reliable, especially northbound is another matter.

The through train takes 40 minutes longer rather than the hour I had in my head from somewhere. 20 minutes extra for the Birmingham wobble, and the other 20 minutes for the Northampton wobble.

If LNR are looking to name their routes, moving on from the historic name of 'The Cobbler', the Crewe to Euston service could be named 'The Wobbler'!

Some good prices too. Advances from £8 mid-day. And that is precisely why this service should not be rolled into any future WCML franchise with 'moderation of competition' ie 'fleece the punter' rules.

Can't get JP's to offer itineraries for Stone to Rugeley though!

Deafdoggie · 5 Jul 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
Today:
9K24 (1215 ex Euston), 21 minutes late at Stafford so sent straight up the mainline, arrived 3 minutes late at Crewe, perhaps reasonable.
9K32 (1615 ex Euston, 1820 ex New Street) a mere 8 minutes late at Stafford, yet also sent straight up the mainline to Crewe arriving 10 minutes early.

They do this so often I rarely pay for a journey and get full delay repay each time, how this makes business sense to anyone I have not the fainest idea!

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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