Uniforms - formal vs. informal?

Facing Back · 4 Jul 2019

bionic said:
If I'd just lost a loved one I wouldn't give a monkeys how people came dressed to their funeral. If you've just lost a loved one and you are worried about how other people choose to dress then your priorities are all wrong.

A funeral should be a celebration of someone's life. People should come dressed to have a good time. All that black tie, shoe-gazing stuff is pathetic and I refuse to submit to it. When I kick the bucket I don't want a load of stuffy punters sitting around moping, I want them to have a massive party, a good drink, a dance and laugh.

With respect, its their funeral. You can have what you want when you pop your clogs - and as it happens a party is what I want too! But if the family want a tie or a black tie - if they feel that denotes respect, then that is what I'll do.

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cactustwirly · 4 Jul 2019

Bantamzen said:
Looking professional is no longer enough, it doesn't matter what you wear so long as you do the job you are given well. This notion that dressing formally makes you more professional is an antiquated concept best left back in the middle of last century, maybe even the one before. Looking down at someone doing their job of their attire is downright snobby and rude, and completely outdated.

Looking smart, gives a good impression, and someone who dresses in jeans an T-shirts gives a really bad impression, it looks like they don't care.
My last job was customer facing, and it had a strict dress code, and my next job has 2 uniforms, an informal one for general work, and a smart one for the customer facing role.
I wouldn't be happy when doing customer service work, if I wasn't dressed smartly.

Bantamzen · 4 Jul 2019

cactustwirly said:
Looking smart, gives a good impression, and someone who dresses in jeans an T-shirts gives a really bad impression, it looks like they don't care.
My last job was customer facing, and it had a strict dress code, and my next job has 2 uniforms, an informal one for general work, and a smart one for the customer facing role.
I wouldn't be happy when doing customer service work, if I wasn't dressed smartly.

No, that's your perception (and that of your employer's). We live in a world were people are expressing themselves more, gone are the days of stuffy beige uniforms, regulation haircuts & absolutely no sign of self expression. I myself treat people how they are with my interactions with them, not how they dress. I stand by my previous comment that judging people simply by their exterior is rude & outdated.

Facing Back · 4 Jul 2019

"I wouldn't be happy when doing customer service work, if I wasn't dressed smartly."

That's an interesting point. I know a couple of people who have moved from face-to-face customer service to managing the function and both now work from home, as do their teams. Neither uses any form of video conferencing, its all email or teleconferencing yet neither feels in the zone unless their are "professionally" dressed (by their definition - I know its contentious) with their hair and make up done as if they were in the office or facing customers.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
they are not people who do shifts and live on poor food

That is true. While I am about the same size as the one on the right I very much doubt I would look anywhere near as well-presented in what he was wearing owing to my rather poorer relationship with food

Facing Back · 4 Jul 2019

Bantamzen said:
No, that's your perception (and that of your employer's). We live in a world were people are expressing themselves more, gone are the days of stuffy beige uniforms, regulation haircuts & absolutely no sign of self expression. I myself treat people how they are with my interactions with them, not how they dress. I stand by my previous comment that judging people simply by their exterior is rude & outdated.

Its very difficult not to judge people to a degree on how they are dressed as that forms part of the famous "first impression", even if it is subconscious. I agree that regulation haircuts and no sign of self-expression do not enhance the experience but - if this forum tells us anything - its that there is a wide range of views on what customers expect or consider appropriate in a member of staff.

You can argue that you don't give a toss and that it's their fault if they don't approve of your beach shorts and flip flops but quite a few companies will disagree. I think many have totally missed the mark in what they ask their staff to wear of course.

Bantamzen · 4 Jul 2019

Facing Back said:
Its very difficult not to judge people to a degree on how they are dressed as that forms part of the famous "first impression", even if it is subconscious. I agree that regulation haircuts and no sign of self-expression do not enhance the experience but - if this forum tells us anything - its that there is a wide range of views on what customers expect or consider appropriate in a member of staff.

You can argue that you don't give a toss and that it's their fault if they don't approve of your beach shorts and flip flops but quite a few companies will disagree. I think many have totally missed the mark in what they ask their staff to wear of course.

You are right that there is still a part of us that is inclined to judge on first impressions, however after many, many years meeting, working, living & socialising with a vast range of different people I can now readily avoid any such instinct & simply wait for our interactions to give me my impression of them. In a lot of ways, and risking being slightly controversial, judging people on their appearance is not dissimilar to judging on sex or ethnicity. Perhaps in very dark times in the past someone's appearance might tell of their persona, but like I say these days people feel far more able to self-express & be an individual. And as more of society does so, the less we need prescriptive standards as to what being professional is.

6Gman · 4 Jul 2019

Mintona said:
Can’t imagine not wearing a shirt, tie and blazer. But I do get confused for other crew members all the time as most drivers wear polo shirts and light jackets. Look professional, be professional. That’s my motto

Took me a while to realise that the bloke in a polo shirt and shorts on a late-running Northern service was the guard (I'm a traditionalist) - it was only when he unlocked the door release that I realised!

Given that I was only on the train because mine had been cancelled and I was to change en route at a station where there might - or might not - be a train to take me forward, contacting a staff member was quite important.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

Facing Back said:
That's an interesting point. I know a couple of people who have moved from face-to-face customer service to managing the function and both now work from home, as do their teams. Neither uses any form of video conferencing, its all email or teleconferencing yet neither feels in the zone unless their are "professionally" dressed (by their definition - I know its contentious) with their hair and make up done as if they were in the office or facing customers.

That's interesting. I work from home in a T-shirt and shorts, and I've even done crack of dawn meetings without even getting out of bed. Once you take the visual aspect away, nothing matters to me but the ability to do my job.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

6Gman said:
Given that I was only on the train because mine had been cancelled and I was to change en route at a station where there might - or might not - be a train to take me forward, contacting a staff member was quite important.

I remember my Dad commenting that he liked the way VTWC staff at the time wore red jackets, as you could pick them out from a crowd of blue and black suits at commuter time if you needed them, but it didn't look quite as rough-and-ready as FirstGroup's preferred approach of using differently coloured hi-vis.

Bletchleyite · 4 Jul 2019

Facing Back said:
Its very difficult not to judge people to a degree on how they are dressed as that forms part of the famous "first impression", even if it is subconscious.

But remember that people have different impressions. I would more likely favour someone in a simple neat polo shirt, trousers and shoes as having both attention to detail and being someone ready to do their job over someone in a staid suit, particularly if the suit was ill-fitting as it so often is.

(I actually prefer contrast between top and bottom half in looks terms, so I usually don't wear a suit if one is needed anyway, I tend to wear separate jacket and trousers).

sprunt · 4 Jul 2019

Eccles1983 said:
As one of the poor suffering crew I really couldn't care what the passengers thought of me wearing shorts or polos.

Happy to say that as a passenger I really couldn't care what you are wearing, especially if you're a driver who I'll never have any interaction with. I can certainly see the argument that customer facing staff should be identifiable as such - I should be able to know that the person asking to see my ticket has any right to do so - but I totally agree that any uniform should have comfort as a priority. It's really not going to affect my enjoyment of the journey if the train manager is wearing a polo shirt rather than a suit and tie.

hooverboy said:
nobody escapes ironing!

I can't remember the last time I ironed anything.

hooverboy said:
sorry snowflakes, but it is absolutely perceived that those who are either photogenic/well dressed are better at their jobs than those who are unkempt.

"Snowflakes", says the one who gets upset because people aren't wearing a tie. And this is nonsense frankly - I'm currently sitting in an office in the City of London where not a single person is wearing a tie, and on a conference call this morning we got a big thank you from the CTO (wearing jeans today) for the great feedback we received as a department at a senior management meeting last week.

cactustwirly said:
But as a paying passenger, we have expectations that the staff should be professional and smartly dressed

No. We have expectations that we'll be transported to where we've paid to be transported to, and that any staff we encounter will treat us with respect and courtesy. None of that is a function of whether they're wearing a tie or not.

RLBH · 4 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I remember my Dad commenting that he liked the way VTWC staff at the time wore red jackets, as you could pick them out from a crowd of blue and black suits at commuter time if you needed them, but it didn't look quite as rough-and-ready as FirstGroup's preferred approach of using differently coloured hi-vis.

Scotrail have taken to putting customer information people in powder blue vests with retro-reflective vests. I hesitate to call them 'hi-vis', because they really aren't. In fact, they're excellent camouflage in a group of passengers. Why these members of staff are so outfitted, I have no idea - in any circumstance where high visibility clothing is required, they'd need to exchange their vest for an orange one. And they'd look vastly more professional in a branded fleece or soft-shell jacket.

Sonic92 · 4 Jul 2019

RLBH said:
Scotrail have taken to putting customer information people in powder blue vests with retro-reflective vests.

. I thought they were security? therefore the reason for the different colour ‘hi viz’

Must admit that the hi viz looks daft especially when other ScotRail staff have hi viz’s in stating gateline etc

Facing Back · 4 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's interesting. I work from home in a T-shirt and shorts, and I've even done crack of dawn meetings without even getting out of bed. Once you take the visual aspect away, nothing matters to me but the ability to do my job.

I'd be very surprised if you were not the norm. I only wouldn't do it because we have a house rule that we work in the office (home office...) when in there its work mode, no disturbances, just like being at work. When out of there at home and available for normal family stuff. I don't care how I dress but I get into "work mode" when I go in there - it works for us as we both work from home a lot. If I'm doing video conferencing then its a clean polo shirt.

Sorry - I've gone a bit off topic there....

Fireless · 4 Jul 2019

bionic said:
DB drivers in Germany wear civvies so I'd be quite happy with that.

Due to the german regulations concerning workwear (if workwear is required, the time for changing clothes is considered as worktime and needs to be paid accordingly), the amount of railwaypeople required to wear an uniform has been reduced to mostly customer facing staff (e.g. guards and station staff).

It is quite similar in Belgium where the customer facing staff wears a uniform designed to be well recognisable (the designer picked a grey and orange as colours as he did not see anybody wearing that combination) and the drivers sometimes turning up in tracksuits.

Teddyward · 4 Jul 2019

I’d love some shorts. 321 cabs can be stifling. Walking 10+ miles a day in thick cargo trousers around the sidings is not great either.

bionic · 4 Jul 2019

Fireless said:
Due to the german regulations concerning workwear (if workwear is required, the time for changing clothes is considered as worktime and needs to be paid accordingly), the amount of railwaypeople required to wear an uniform has been reduced to mostly customer facing staff (e.g. guards and station staff).

It is quite similar in Belgium where the customer facing staff wears a uniform designed to be well recognisable (the designer picked a grey and orange as colours as he did not see anybody wearing that combination) and the drivers sometimes turning up in tracksuits.

I could live with that. I'd probably get myself kitted out with some nice 70s Adidas Franz Beckenbauer-style tracksuits if I worked on the continent. I bet they still have ashtrays in the cabs too!

Hadders · 4 Jul 2019

There is a bit of horses for courses here as well. I've worn a variety of different styles to work recently:

1. Working at my company's head office - smart jeans and shirt
2. Visiting a depot - jeans, safety shoes, company fleece and hi-viz
3. Meeting with a supplier - trousers, shirt and jacket
4. Witness in court - suit and tie (nice to be described by the bench a very credible witness too!)

whhistle · 5 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
A crime against sartorial elegance. You will tell me you wear brown/tan shoes with black trousers next! God not the white socks. Please not the white socks!

Don't worry, I only own black socks!
And no, brown/tan shoes with black trousers? No!
Same with proper shoes and jeans... a la Simon Cowell.

Meerkat · 5 Jul 2019

In commercial terms I reckon you upset very few customers by having overly smart staff, but do annoy a fair few by having casually dressed staff, especially during disruption or complaints. I think it helps guards if they look like they have authority.
Though this is probably lessening as even the police look scruffy these days in combats and fleeces with half an electronics store hanging off their stab vest.

What is crucial is that staff are immediately identifiable- that northern uniform is very average and doesn’t stand out at all - if it has to be that colour scheme it needs large logos

dilbertphil · 5 Jul 2019

I think in the race to the bottom that most TOC's are in, the only thing that matters to them is how cheap it is and which 3rd world sweatshop can produce it en masse for pennies. I've worn many variations of uniform and the thing they all have in common is cheap, uncomfortable and last about 3 washes before they are done. I pretty much wear my own garments to work that closely resemble the tat they want us to wear.

WestRiding · 5 Jul 2019

Regarding drivers, why do we need uniforms in this country? After recent travels in Europe;
Germany, no uniform.
Czech Republic, no uniform.
Poland, no uniform.
Romania, no uniform.

Also, why do UK signalmen need a uniform, nobody sees them.

godfreycomplex · 5 Jul 2019

kimflop said:
Regarding drivers, why do we need uniforms in this country? After recent travels in Europe;
Germany, no uniform.
Czech Republic, no uniform.
Poland, no uniform.
Romania, no uniform.

Also, why do UK signalmen need a uniform, nobody sees them.

Exactly right. There’s lots of people in this country who still appear to be living in circa 1900, however. Maybe it’s because they think rail staff should look like the servants, or something.
Anecdotally there was always a way of telling if a signalbox was a nice one to work in
Everyone wearing full uniform - unhappy
Some people wearing parts of it - happy

WestRiding · 5 Jul 2019

godfreycomplex said:
Exactly right. There’s lots of people in this country who still appear to be living in circa 1900, however

Drivers need nothing but ID. Same as Signalmen. Actual customer dealing staff, i agree, some sort of uniform, but relaxed.

Llanigraham · 5 Jul 2019

kimflop said:
Also, why do UK signalmen need a uniform, nobody sees them.

Not correct, there are still signallers who have to go outside their Boxes to deal with things like crossings, and funnily enough we do sometimes meet the public when things go wrong.
I was quite happy wearing my light blue polo shirt, and still have a very good fleece that I've covered the NR logo with an MG badge and my gillet. Mind you the trousers were absolute rubbish.

6Gman · 5 Jul 2019

kimflop said:
Drivers need nothing but ID. Same as Signalmen. Actual customer dealing staff, i agree, some sort of uniform, but relaxed.

But not so relaxed that you can't identify them when you need to.

Eccles1983 · 5 Jul 2019

Why would any passenger need to identify the driver?

Unless I'm in the cab then I am of no or little use to passengers. And when I'm in the cab then speak via the passenger alarm.

I'm intrigued to know the reasons why you need to identify the driver?

Facing Back · 6 Jul 2019

I realise that they are not trains, but I do seem to recall Eddie Stobart getting huge brand recognition and a high bump in "perceived quality" specifically as a result of their drivers wearing a shirt and tie - it was a few years ago now

Facing Back · 6 Jul 2019

godfreycomplex said:
Exactly right. There’s lots of people in this country who still appear to be living in circa 1900, however. Maybe it’s because they think rail staff should look like the servants, or something.
Anecdotally there was always a way of telling if a signalbox was a nice one to work in
Everyone wearing full uniform - unhappy
Some people wearing parts of it - happy

I do find it very interesting the breadth and strength of opinion that the subject of uniforms generates!

Uniforms - formal vs. informal?

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