Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

MisterT · 5 Jul 2019

a_c_skinner said:
My point is none of these are acceptable. These units were delivered a while ago, they've had test runs and training on the main line, there are test tracks available too, yet it seems simply met with a shrug of the shoulders and a view that these things happen. (My Apollo analogy wasn't to say things should be as good as Apollo but to point out that in the intervening half century things should have come on a good deal and we should be capable of making trains that are pretty much fault free and more to the point expected to be fault free.)

There isn't any train that is completely fault free, and the people working with the trains are no more (or less, for that matter) than that: they are simply humans. And humans make mistakes.
Trains are tested until they are acceptable for service, and then the real testing starts: with a lot of passengers and a lot of other crew. It's a bit like the saying: "No plan survives contact with the enemy". Users will use a train in ways that can never be imagined or completely tested.
A train is never complete or finished. Until the last years in service, trains will be modified for a lot of different reasons (and of course money plays a huge role too).

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AlexNL · 5 Jul 2019

The same can be said about computer software, for that matter. It's never "finished", there will always be changes, fixes and enhancements made to the product.

Windows XP has been in development since the end of the 20th century, was released in 2001, and got marked 'end of life' in April 2014. It received monthly updates for a solid 13 years, and Microsoft sometimes still releases patches and fixes for the operating system.

driver_m · 5 Jul 2019

How many of the people writing complaints about the units problems being unacceptable, have wrote it on a phone, laptop or computer that is on the same version as bought without updates? I’ll bet it’s a figure between 0 and 0.

As we all know, Boeing have launched a plane that hasn’t worked perfectly out of the box and not just the last one.

Also, I don’t think some of you realise either just how big a leap the tech is that the drivers and guards are getting used to. You try going from a basic Austin Princess to a bells and whistles Seat Leon and see how different it is.

superalbs · 5 Jul 2019

Justapunter said:
Not sure I'd like to travel in one all the way to say Barrow - they look less 'nice' when new than the 156s did 30 odd years ago.... but I guess that's a limited run - all the way on that line....

I did Manchester to Barrow on one of them, and back to Preston. It was an absolutely delightful journey, so they're pretty much good for about 3 hours, and I reckon you could get away with a bit more. They really are top units.

Kendalian · 5 Jul 2019

driver_m said:
How many of the people writing complaints about the units problems being unacceptable, have wrote it on a phone, laptop or computer that is on the same version as bought without updates? I’ll bet it’s a figure between 0 and 0.

As we all know, Boeing have launched a plane that hasn’t worked perfectly out of the box and not just the last one.

Also, I don’t think some of you realise either just how big a leap the tech is that the drivers and guards are getting used to. You try going from a basic Austin Princess to a bells and whistles Seat Leon and see how different it is.

Yes it's easy to forget how long the 156/158s have been around, just over 30 years for the 156s and just under 30 for the 158s.

Good analogy with cars. The mid range car of today compared to 30 years ago doesn't bear thinking about how much the technology has moved forward, likewise for the 195s compared to 156/158!

js1000 · 5 Jul 2019

Oh dear, the 17:15 from Liverpool to MIA on circuit 5 has fallen over and has been cancelled at Oxford Road. They're trying to get it to start from OR at 19:12 on its reverse journey.

Xenophon PCDGS · 5 Jul 2019

Can I add another "Class 195 journey travelled upon" to this thread. We took the 1029 Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness service today with 195121 as far as Wigan North Western as we had a scheduled meeting in the town centre. This was our first journey on a Class 195 unit and we have nothing but praise to add. We are both in our 70s and found nothing to disconcert ourselves about.

a_c_skinner · 5 Jul 2019

Well hopefully I'll get a ride on one tomorrow. Anyhow this is all off topic, because it seems to affect the majority of new vehicle deliveries, not just the 195s.

squizzler · 5 Jul 2019

Justapunter said:
Fair enough, my main concern is that people think it's acceptable for launches to be like that. There seems to be mentality of "testing being done in service). And to be defending my corner, it's not day one. It's day whatever after all the crew training runs and testing miles. They aren't being unloaded and lobbed into service like the 66s ( I see 345s regularly on the Western end of crossrail. They will have loads of miles on them by the time they eventually enter service.... they really SHOULD be flawless...)...

a_c_skinner said:
My point is none of these are acceptable. These units were delivered a while ago, they've had test runs and training on the main line, there are test tracks available too, yet it seems simply met with a shrug of the shoulders and a view that these things happen. (My Apollo analogy wasn't to say things should be as good as Apollo but to point out that in the intervening half century things should have come on a good deal and we should be capable of making trains that are pretty much fault free and more to the point expected to be fault free.)

It is quite fortunate the forum has such savvy people on it to fight the corner of those who are less world-wise (and I must admit that until enlightened by posters, I fell into this category) from being palmed off by such excuses as the trains being a new design or merely vastly superior to what went before. Shame on these people and their crummy new trains!

Antman · 5 Jul 2019

Yes, but they've been test

Kendalian said:
Yes it's easy to forget how long the 156/158s have been around, just over 30 years for the 156s and just under 30 for the 158s.

Good analogy with cars. The mid range car of today compared to 30 years ago doesn't bear thinking about how much the technology has moved forward, likewise for the 195s compared to 156/158!

if you do cars it’s a Rover 800 (1986) versus say a Volvo S80 . A princess (assuming you mean the wedge one is 1975). Apart from the self controlling electronics, emissions and passive safety kit, which just works, a Rover 800 driver could get in an S80 and just drive. The roads have changed for all, and the Rover 800 driver has spent thirty years driving his rover in changing conditions. So that isn’t a steep curve. The interfaces may be, but let’s be fair, modern car electronics are pretty intuitive and they just work. And mr rover 800 will almost certainly have had a sat nav fitted on a sucker, played with a mobile phone, will have had a DAB radio etc.... it really isn’t the massive jump people are claiming. The actual hardware is. But the people involved haven’t been in a bubble since Ivan Drago killed Apollo Creed.

And that’s what all the testing has been about. Yet it hasn’t worked. And people think that’s acceptable. It isn’t these days. This stuff should just work. They aren’t knocked together by men in sheds with hammers. The computer modelling takes years and costs millions.... the power used to do them should be refining and honing.... after all, it’s still a DMU, it’s not like using a cart horse one day then being asked to use a teleported the next....

Eccles1983 · 5 Jul 2019

Utter nonsense.

The drivers have gone from having about 10 mcb's to monitor to over 50. Now each one will do a different thing, and gremlins exist in real life that can never be replicated on testing.

It's nothing like jumping in and just "driving". Using a retarder brake is alien to Northern drivers, as is a TMS screaming at you and a combined Power/Brake handle.

It's mainly software issues, not hardware.

Bertie the bus · 5 Jul 2019

a_c_skinner said:
Well hopefully I'll get a ride on one tomorrow. Anyhow this is all off topic, because it seems to affect the majority of new vehicle deliveries, not just the 195s.

I disagree that it is off topic but agree problems, often quite serious ones or ones which should have been highlighted with competent testing, does affect the majority of new rail vehicles. And each time it happens you always get people saying 'That's what happens when you introduce new trains' as though that somehow makes it acceptable. It isn't acceptable.

86247 · 5 Jul 2019

had my first 195 haulage today first a short hop from Oxford road to Piccadilly on 195121 then 195119 from Piccadilly to Liverpool South parkway I was most impressed by them excellent DMU's

Ianigsy · 5 Jul 2019

anamyd said:
All trains should have sinks with plugs on chains!

And a small bar of Palmolive!

86247 · 5 Jul 2019

just a quick question everyone but are all the 3 car 195s getting delivered first as their doesn't appear to be many 2 car ones about

geoffk · 5 Jul 2019

Today 1C56 1530 MIA - Barrow spent 40 minutes at Oxford Road. I've picked it up from RTT and know it's booked for a 195 but don't know what happened. Several trains were diverted to platform 1, which has no lift. However my journeys on 195s so far left quite a favourable impression, despite the rather hard seats and loud PA system.

_toommm_ · 5 Jul 2019

195119 on the 20:16 Lime Street to Airport randomly closed its doors today at Oxford Road, nearly trapping a bike and a passenger's arm in the process. Is there something inherently wrong with the doors as it does seem to be an issue being reported recently?

50032 · 5 Jul 2019

geoffk said:
Today 1C56 1530 MIA - Barrow spent 40 minutes at Oxford Road. I've picked it up from RTT and know it's booked for a 195 but don't know what happened. Several trains were diverted to platform 1, which has no lift. However my journeys on 195s so far left quite a favourable impression, despite the rather hard seats and loud PA system.

I gather a class 156 worked this service today.

Mountain Man · 5 Jul 2019

Chris217 said:
Just had a chat with a Lime Street guard.
He says give me a Pacer any day.
There is too much that can go wrong on the 195s. The thing is run by computer he says,and computers can go wrong.
He went on to say,Pacers always get bad press but I have worked on them for many years with very little fault.
Although the 195s look smart he admitted.
They are besieged with niggles as they have been rushed into service!!!!
Not my words lol.
But I chuckled at his last statement

There are less things that can go wrong on a horse and cart too. It doesn't mean it's an improvement

Fez14 · 5 Jul 2019

I plan on riding one on Monday morning to Liverpool from Piccadilly, anyone now what time (aka minutes past hour) I’m likely to get one?

Mountain Man · 5 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
We want them perfect before entry into service we pay more and wait longer and the political and operational consequences of that are laid bare. There is always a balance and it seems in my opinion the balance is there, there abouts.

You will never have a perfect launch. It's absurdly unrealistic.

On the relative scale the 195 launch has been a big success.

Unfortunately some point judge things in a fantasy utopia, not the real world

Mathew S · 5 Jul 2019

_toommm_ said:
195119 on the 20:16 Lime Street to Airport randomly closed its doors today at Oxford Road, nearly trapping a bike and a passenger's arm in the process. Is there something inherently wrong with the doors as it does seem to be an issue being reported recently?

They auto-close after something like 20/30 seconds. There's a sensor at roughly shin level that should stop them closing of people are still boarding/alighting. I'm not sure a bike would trigger it? It was explained to me by a guard earlier this week that you have to hold down the open button for five seconds (rather than just pressing it) to override the automatic closing thing.

Bovverboy · 5 Jul 2019

Fez14 said:
I plan on riding one on Monday morning to Liverpool from Piccadilly, anyone now what time (aka minutes past hour) I’m likely to get one?

The 0709, 0809, 1009, and 1109 departures are all booked for 195s. (The 0809 a double.)

Mountain Man · 5 Jul 2019

Justapunter said:
And that’s what all the testing has been about. Yet it hasn’t worked. And people think that’s acceptable.

Of course it's worked.

Are you seriously suggesting that the trains are in the same condition and have the same number of issues as when they started testing? Testing will have identified and improved vast swathes of issues.

As for the point you keep raising about people thinking is acceptable. Some people accept its the real world and not some utopian fantasy dream.

86247 · 5 Jul 2019

always be teething problems with any new stock need to bed in first

Antman · 5 Jul 2019

Mountain Man said:
As for the point you keep raising about people thinking is acceptable. Some people accept its the real world and not some utopian fantasy dream.

It’s only the real world because the railway wants it to be. Non railway people tend to disagree. If your new fiesta kept having to go back to be fixed/ adjusted/run with engineers/whatever Even after 18 months of testing, would you tolerate it?

Mathew S · 5 Jul 2019

Justapunter said:
It’s only the real world because the railway wants it to be. Non railway people tend to disagree. If your new fiesta kept having to go back to be fixed/ adjusted/run with engineers/whatever Even after 18 months of testing, would you tolerate it?

Ask any Toyota owner. Recalls for modifications to new cars are not in any way unusual.

anamyd · 5 Jul 2019

Ianigsy said:
And a small bar of Palmolive!

I did come across soap bars in a TfW 158 with an empty dispenser the other week

Mountain Man · 5 Jul 2019

Justapunter said:
It’s only the real world because the railway wants it to be. Non railway people tend to disagree. If your new fiesta kept having to go back to be fixed/ adjusted/run with engineers/whatever Even after 18 months of testing, would you tolerate it?

No, it's the real world because it is.

Any manufacturing project of this complexity has day 1 issues.

Whether its a ship, plane, train or building.

It's nothing to do with the railway. Its basic reality.

anamyd · 5 Jul 2019

driver_m said:
How many of the people writing complaints about the units problems being unacceptable, have wrote it on a phone, laptop or computer that is on the same version as bought without updates? I’ll bet it’s a figure between 0 and 0.

I haven't wrote any comments about the units' problems being unacceptable (because I haven't seen any in person let alone been on any) but the S9+ I'm typing this from is in fact still running the same Android 8 preload it had from new (December 2018). In fact, I'll be disabling the nag screen when I get round to it.

Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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