anamyd
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The auto-close should be disabled, or at least the timer duration increased
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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates
- Thread starter Haydn1971
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MisterT
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Yep, that's living in utopia. Car manufacturers produce a lot of pre-production test cars before the first one is sold to the regular customers, and even then the first consumer ready series tend to have lots of issues.
For example Volkswagen has made the mistake of selling those pre-production cars instead of scrapping them and is now searching for more than 6700 (!!) cars that were not fit for purpose.
Producing 600 trains a year before the first train is sold to a TOC is simply economically unviable, or the cost per train will be multiplied by ten or more, and even more when the customer wants to live in an utopia with zero faults, bugs, wrong-placed stickers, ten functioning toilets on a three-car MU or something like that.
So yes, it is accepted that there are a number of small teething issues when new trains enter service, that will be resolved over time (or not, depending on the severity of the issue and the complexity to solve it (costs/benefit ratio)).
It was after only 10 seconds - they all closed at once.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Well that's great but any bugs in the software or any security issues maybe still there waiting to bite you back one day.
So to eradicate the chance you have updates on your phone unless you turn them off. So on a modern train with plenty software to contend with, they need updates and other things need tweaking.
Very complex systems integrated on modern transport.systems.
Don't think I'd fancy a horse and cart on a Lime Street-Oxford Rd service lol.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
We already have nodding donkeys. Lol
Ah, yeah... that's one to add to the snagging list then!
AlexNL
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Car manufacturers use platforms on which their cars are built. This means that a wide range of vehicles shares the same underlying technology and design, even if they are intended for very distinct target audiences. This helps car manufacturers cut costs, but it also helps in getting vehicles to market quicker.
That's also why new car models have relatively few recalls and post-launch modifications. An exception to this is the first generation of a completely new platform, these vehicles do see more recalls.
Did you know that the Audi A3, the Skoda Octavia, the Volkswagen Polo and the SEAT Arona all share the same roots? They're all based on VW Group's MQB platform.
That's also why new car models have relatively few recalls and post-launch modifications. An exception to this is the first generation of a completely new platform, these vehicles do see more recalls.
Did you know that the Audi A3, the Skoda Octavia, the Volkswagen Polo and the SEAT Arona all share the same roots? They're all based on VW Group's MQB platform.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
You only have to see what problems a certain "innovative new lamps for old" micro fleet have had on the Marston Vale line since their recent introduction in service.
dubscottie
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Ireland (both North & the Republic) had the right idea. No unnecessary software. Its just something to go wrong.
IR & NIR have CAF units running day in and out, carrying tens of thousands of people daily.
All new trains in the UK, while mechanically usable, are screwed because they have unnecessary software.
MQB has gone as big as the Atlas. And that’s a massive American tank ... but that is OT ...
Civity is also a platform. I have no doubt CAF uses a range of electronics and hardware across both its civity range and elsewhere. To make them reliable out of the box when applied to different models. As I understand it ,the main difference on the 195s to other civity units is the fact they’re diesel. And it would be reasonable To expect more issues with the engines, transmissions and controls for those as they are new here.
If the issues are just wrongly sited bins and some labels, that’s fine. All can be sorted out. And it’s minor stuff. If they have doors that aren’t working right, then we have a serious issue. And I’d expect that to have been picked up in all the testing, not to magically manifest itself within days of going live with passengers.
krus_aragon
Established Member
I'm glad to know you had a pleasant experience with them. I haven't had an excuse to go east in search of one yet, though I'm sure the opportunity will come.
I must admit, when I saw the following post:
I thought of you and your cuneiformed stone tablet. I think that's still on version 0!
a_c_skinner
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Two points:
Are we risking a trap and drag incident? I'm seriously wondering about driving to Penrith today. I'm really spooked by the door functioning. I'm also wondering how this wasn't found in testing. Is it really a euphemism for driving them around rather than a comprehensive testing? I'll get on at the guard's local door. I am serious.
Secondly it seems that the way we are trying to get short delivery dates (which are not always met) is by eliminating prototyping. One of the rail pundits observed as much recently. Motor cars are prototyped a good deal. Worryingly aircraft less so it seems.
Thirdly (sorry) the issue I find comes across on these fora isn't that people accept snagging in service but they expect it. It is a subtle difference but an important one.
Are we risking a trap and drag incident? I'm seriously wondering about driving to Penrith today. I'm really spooked by the door functioning. I'm also wondering how this wasn't found in testing. Is it really a euphemism for driving them around rather than a comprehensive testing? I'll get on at the guard's local door. I am serious.
Secondly it seems that the way we are trying to get short delivery dates (which are not always met) is by eliminating prototyping. One of the rail pundits observed as much recently. Motor cars are prototyped a good deal. Worryingly aircraft less so it seems.
Thirdly (sorry) the issue I find comes across on these fora isn't that people accept snagging in service but they expect it. It is a subtle difference but an important one.
squizzler
Established Member
Methinks your judgement of risk is awry - it is going to be much safer by rail than motoring on the public highway. I have been following this thread and have not got the impression there are health and safety problems. Otherwise - given today's risk adverse railway - they would have stopped running.
Early door closing has been a feature locally to me for nearly 2 decades and is standard with air con, it just take a bit of getting used to! All the doors installed now are meant to have to detect entrained objects. Things have moved on from Sprinters
CAF do less testing and be bugging pre delivery, it is one of the reasons they are cheaper.
Exactly.
The engine and transmission controls are on the raft that comes from MTU and has already been used by different manufacturers on the continent so very little for CAF to do apart from the software to interface (no different to Hitachi with IETs, different engine but the same raft concept).
CAF TCMS software is used on more than just Civity.
https://mtu-online-shop.com/media/f...9/3235271_MTU_Rail_spec_PowerPack _6H1800.pdf
LeylandLen
Member
I find that nowadays, the amount of time a button is pressed can deterime the action needed, as opposed to a simple one press for open or close.Thats the case with this lap top ; to start it properley requires pressing the 'on/off' button for 10 secs. Similar situation with my DAB radio ; if I need a scan of stations, a button has to be held down for 5 secs.
a_c_skinner
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It was on time, very nice ride at 90 on the WCML I remain uneasy about the doors but know the M6 carries much more risk. Set being worked from the middle doors. As a bonus my GPS worked, unlike on some new stock. Nice inside. Quiet, seems to accelerate well. All in all good. Seats were OK
Is it true CAF save a deal of money on testing? It strikes me that testing is a modest part of the overall cost of a train.
Is it true CAF save a deal of money on testing? It strikes me that testing is a modest part of the overall cost of a train.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I did Manchester to Barrow on one of them, and back to Preston. It was an absolutely delightful journey, so they're pretty much good for about 3 hours, and I reckon you could get away with a bit more. They really are top units.
After a run from Oxford Road to Carnforth and back to Wigan yesterday (different units), I fully agree.
It's a really nice environment and there are (many) worse seats around.
I'd say the ride was a bit hard and bumpy in places (over Chat Moss particularly) compared to, say, a 158, but the return unit was better than the outward so maybe it's just a question of suspension tuning.
The PIS worked fine. I'd like a readout of speed to add to the date/time/temp. They seem to reach 100mph easily.
No door issues, though the open/close buttons will take a bit of getting used to.
Aircon fine, just the odd whirring sound when it kicks in.
We were turned slow line between Preston and Balshaw Lane, and had to kill time northbound into Preston on the Sprinter schedule.
Journey times can come down quite a bit with these units when they get a schedule to match their performance.
Off topic, but there are quite a number of 331s parked up in Blackpool sidings and at Edge Hill.
Hopefully they'll soon be out too.
Wiring of the sidings at Springs Branch is in progress, so it looks like EMUs will be based there soon.
jonesy3001
Established Member
do you think they'll wire the line between lostock and wigan as well?
Apologies for going off topic.
Bornin1980s
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Genuine question; is the 221 system still on its original hardware, or has that been upgraded? Because it must be hard to update a system that old.
The Voyagers may be relevant, as they may have been the train which introduced us to software faults.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Yes basically the original hardware on the Class 221 with other systems added over time. It's the software that @driver_m mentioned earlier that has had many updates over the years, but it's an old TMS system and it shows but for units that are 18 years old it does a job.
I've been on quite a few of these units now mostly between South Parkway and Lime Street but also one trip to Manchester Airport (Where I saw the 6 TUI 737 Max 8's parked up out of use because they also don't work properly from new but in a much more dramatic way).
They are a complete change in quality from anything else Northern have operated out of Lime Street before. A lot of the door problems seem to be down to individual guards and that is from a guard. Some but not all have very loud PA systems. Some but not all seem to have a very hard ride which is weird, keeping in mind I have been up and down on exactly the same stretches of track.
Overall I am very impressed as is a mate who drives them, apparently the view provided out of the front is amazing. It's difficult to believe you are on a Northern train. Apart from the one that was absolutely rammed from the airport back to Liverpool, ha ha.
They are a complete change in quality from anything else Northern have operated out of Lime Street before. A lot of the door problems seem to be down to individual guards and that is from a guard. Some but not all have very loud PA systems. Some but not all seem to have a very hard ride which is weird, keeping in mind I have been up and down on exactly the same stretches of track.
Overall I am very impressed as is a mate who drives them, apparently the view provided out of the front is amazing. It's difficult to believe you are on a Northern train. Apart from the one that was absolutely rammed from the airport back to Liverpool, ha ha.
bengley
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Travelled on one of these the other day. They're nice units. The seats are firm but comfortable. I especially like that the windows are just at the right height to rest my elbow on the bottom of the frame and perch my head on my hand and watch the view go by.
A small point - the cupholder on the seat-back tray is just a small indentation which would not stop a cup tipping over if knocked accidentally. A hole would have been better.
bengley
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Indeed, the same for most trains though - it is a poor design choice but does go some way to stopping cups sliding across the table.
Erniescooper
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You have no need to worry about trap and drag as the doors are fitted with an Anti Drag system which I have tested myself and is very good.
CAF don’t save money on testing as it is specified by Eversholt and Northern at the contract stage and the trains wouldn’t be accepted if that specified testing had not taken place.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Minor point but at least on the Class 195 we have somewhere to put a cup or other bits unlike the Class 700/707/717/ - 345/710 down Sarf.
I’ve noticed that fake wood style seems to get rather grimy & dark pretty quickly .
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