Greater Anglia 2019 - What could possibly go wrong?

Scottychoo · 5 Jul 2019

Congestion is the result of a delay, not the reason for it.

RailUK Forums

dk1 · 5 Jul 2019

Congestion is just congestion. Do passengers really need to know the route cause was a points failure at Crewe Basford Hall or overhead wire issues at Beatock delaying Felixstowe bound liners? What difference does it make?

MrPIC · 5 Jul 2019

And often times traincrew won't know the specific cause for delays or congestion, unless they've been informed by signallers or overheard a station announcement!

dk1 · 5 Jul 2019

MrPIC said:
And often times traincrew won't know the specific cause for delays or congestion, unless they've been informed by signallers or overheard a station announcement!

And if we are told via GSMR they would just say that magic word 'congestion' :lol:

Dr Hoo · 5 Jul 2019

This is rather off-thread for Greater Anglia specifically but on today’s railway the ‘congestion’ (resulting from having many trains and conflicting movements at minimum headways) acts as such a huge magnifier that the original (often trivial and possibly even sub-threshold) cause is almost irrelevant.

43096 · 5 Jul 2019

dk1 said:
Congestion is just congestion. Do passengers really need to know the route cause was a points failure at Crewe Basford Hall or overhead wire issues at Beatock delaying Felixstowe bound liners? What difference does it make?

Just saying “congestion” is perilously close to the old favourite of “operating difficulties”.

HH · 5 Jul 2019

Maybe they should say "timetable" then; after all if the timetable was robust, "congestion" should never occur.

Or maybe there is often a root cause, it's just that someone in the communication chain couldn't be bothered to go the extra mile (sorry, the poor excuses about communicating the true reasons for delay are a pet bugbear of mine). It's no wonder performance has been on a downward trend. Let's hope AH sorts it out.

trebor79 · 5 Jul 2019

Does it really matter though? As a passenger there's nothing you can do, regardless of the reason. Last time I was seriously delayed we sat at Ipswich for over an hour. We were told it was due to a signalling problem but that bit of info made no difference to me. My action was to go and get another cup of tea from the buffet and read some more or my book. I'd have taken the same action regardless of the reason.

Bromley boy · 5 Jul 2019

trebor79 said:
Does it really matter though? As a passenger there's nothing you can do, regardless of the reason. Last time I was seriously delayed we sat at Ipswich for over an hour. We were told it was due to a signalling problem but that bit of info made no difference to me. My action was to go and get another cup of tea from the buffet and read some more or my book. I'd have taken the same action regardless of the reason.

Trouble is what most people really want to know is “how long will we be stuck here?”. The answer to that is often unknown and unknowable!

As this thread shows giving information is a delicate balancing act: giving bland “operational incident” type reasons is criticised, but give more detailed explanations (congestion being one) and people will pick apart the reasons given.

I expect the average railway enthusiast from this site will never be satisfied unless they get far, far more detailed explanations than are either necessary or helpful to the majority of the travelling public.

arb · 5 Jul 2019

I think this depends on the frequency of the problems. As a single incident on a one-off journey, I'd accept "congestion" quite happily. If the same train that I used for my daily commute was delayed due to "congestion" every day for a month, I'd be wanting to know more. Quite where the crossover between those two states is, I don't know. (But I do know that I'm starting to find Great Northern's "lack of available crew" a bit wearing at the moment).

GarethC · 6 Jul 2019

The East Anglian Daily Times are reporting that planning permission has been given for the new depot at Harwich to replace the proposed one at Brantham.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/new-depot-for-new-trains-at-harwich-1-6144951

East Anglian Daily Times said:
Greater Anglia has been granted planning permission to build a workshop to maintain its new suburban trains on the outskirts of Harwich.
Tendring council has allowed it to build the new depot beside the track mid-way between Dovercourt and Harwich International (Parkeston Quay) stations.

The new depot - which was originally planned for Brantham on the Suffolk/Essex border - will allow the new Bombardier Aventra trains that are due to be introduced at the end of the year to be maintained and serviced overnight.

It will also include a wheel lathe - a piece of equipment that keeps train wheels smooth - and will provide joys for between eight and 12 maintenance engineers.

HH · 6 Jul 2019

trebor79 said:
Does it really matter though? As a passenger there's nothing you can do, regardless of the reason. Last time I was seriously delayed we sat at Ipswich for over an hour. We were told it was due to a signalling problem but that bit of info made no difference to me. My action was to go and get another cup of tea from the buffet and read some more or my book. I'd have taken the same action regardless of the reason.

Actually, and despite what Bromley boy states, if I know the reason I can pretty much determine whether it will be a pretty short delay, a couple of hours or a very long time. Of course, I'm not a typical punter, but I have noticed that quite a lot of regular travellers will make decisions based on the reason given.

Shunter_69 · 6 Jul 2019

GarethC said:
The East Anglian Daily Times are reporting that planning permission has been given for the new depot at Harwich to replace the proposed one at Brantham.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/new-depot-for-new-trains-at-harwich-1-6144951

Great news. Hopefully they can get started quickly.

Meerkat · 6 Jul 2019

Giving a bit more detail gives the passenger the impression “we have a problem, we know what it is, we are fixing it”. Sounds like a more professional organisation.

Meerkat · 6 Jul 2019

Shunter_69 said:
Great news. Hopefully they can get started quickly.

From a quick look at the plan this is just one track going through a shed with a wheel lathe.
The Brantham plan was a proper depot with lots of stabling wasn’t it? So where is all the stabling going to be (unless that is on the site nearer International and is on railway land so doesn’t need planning permission??)?

stonojnr · 6 Jul 2019

Meerkat said:
From a quick look at the plan this is just one track going through a shed with a wheel lathe.
The Brantham plan was a proper depot with lots of stabling wasn’t it? So where is all the stabling going to be (unless that is on the site nearer International and is on railway land so doesn’t need planning permission??)?

well maybe theres some joined up thinking and planning ahead going on, Freightliner have just got permission to build their new depot at Ipswich,which presumably ultimately sees them move out of the current station based sidings and leaves a bunch of spare track space, diesel refuelling, couple of wired roads etc...

Class 170101 · 6 Jul 2019

stonojnr said:
well maybe theres some joined up thinking and planning ahead going on, Freightliner have just got permission to build their new depot at Ipswich,which presumably ultimately sees them move out of the current station based sidings and leaves a bunch of spare track space, diesel refuelling, couple of wired roads etc...

Thats at Ipswich.

Unless I've missed something it just looks a wheel lathe only.

Cletus · 7 Jul 2019

GarethC said:
The East Anglian Daily Times are reporting that planning permission has been given for the new depot at Harwich to replace the proposed one at Brantham.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/new-depot-for-new-trains-at-harwich-1-6144951

I like the typo in the article

and will provide joys for between eight and 12 maintenance engineers.

Wivenswold · 7 Jul 2019

Is the fuelling point next to Ipswich station going spare when Freightliner move? That would mollify the small tank issues on the 755s.

Touching on the customer service issue, I've sat on a Customer Service point at a large station for 3 months. Trust me, the vast majority of passengers are more eager to know what's going to happen with their journey than why they're running late. I agree that "Congestion" is an effect rather than a cause, but sometimes it's just 2 mins at a platform, 1 minute slow across a junction, couple of minutes for stopping at a signal, turns to 3 for the train behind and so on. Most people just want to tell you how rubbish the railway is in any case. If they want more specific explanations, they can email in.

dk1 · 7 Jul 2019

Wivenswold said:
Is the fuelling point next to Ipswich station going spare when Freightliner move? That would mollify the small tank issues on the 755s.

Yes. This has been mooted along with an additional platform connected by the new footbridge. Nothing confirmed. Only problem with the fuel Sidings are that they have to be Rail served as no lorry access.

30A4EVER · 7 Jul 2019

Artists impression of new "maintenance facility" shows it being Greater Anglia branded, unyet it will be run by Bombardier?? :/

leytongabriel · 7 Jul 2019

Bromley boy said:
Out of interest, what is “daft” about announcing a delay is caused by congestion? Delays very often occur for this reason, especially at bottle necks, of which there are many around the national network?

There are often threads on this site where people ask to be given more information, not less. Hopefully you can see why that information is often not forthcoming from staff when perfectly valid reasons for delays are dismissed.

Because 'congestion' is pretty meaningless in itself. Why the congestion? French railways are always saying due 'difficultes de circulation' which just causes hostile resignation (I'm a regular SNCF commuter) amongst the passengers and it has become an overused catch-all, seen as a phrase to hide behind.

jamesontheroad · 17 Jul 2019

Made another attempt to sample the much vaunted “Norwich in 90” today, and 9P93 1700 Norwich to London Liverpool Street has been cancelled. Scrolling back through Real Time Trains for 9P93, the first half of July just about sums up the pointlessness of this vanity project...

1 July: +1 late
2 July: +6 late
3 July: +6 late
4 July: cancelled
5 July: cancelled

8 July: +5 late
9 July: cancelled
10 July: cancelled
11 July: cancelled
12 July: +5 late

15 July: +1 late
16 July: +4 late
17 July: cancelled

samuelmorris · 17 Jul 2019

jamesontheroad said:
Made another attempt to sample the much vaunted “Norwich in 90” today, and 9P93 1700 Norwich to London Liverpool Street has been cancelled. Scrolling back through Real Time Trains for 9P93, the first half of July just about sums up the pointlessness of this vanity project...

1 July: +1 late
2 July: +6 late
3 July: +6 late
4 July: cancelled
5 July: cancelled

8 July: +5 late
9 July: cancelled
10 July: cancelled
11 July: cancelled
12 July: +5 late

15 July: +1 late
16 July: +4 late
17 July: cancelled

It doesn't stand a chance without the rest of the timetable modifications that were supposed to come alongside it. As many others have pointed out, it is also the least useful service so if something needs to be cancelled due to shortage of stock, it's the first candidate, as it should be.

Ianno87 · 17 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
It doesn't stand a chance without the rest of the timetable modifications that were supposed to come alongside it. As many others have pointed out, it is also the least useful service so if something needs to be cancelled due to shortage of stock, it's the first candidate, as it should be.

Stops at fewer places, so has fewer people on it than a standard pattern service...

A nominal headline journey time in a couple of random trains in a frequent interval service is not some magical attractor of demand...

trebor79 · 17 Jul 2019

Indeed, Norwich in 90 is nothing more than a vanity project by a few MPs. I'm surprised GA didn't tell them to get stuffed.

HH · 17 Jul 2019

Keeping your "stakeholders" happy helps to win franchises.

trebor79 · 17 Jul 2019

But MPs don't award franchises. With everything else GA are doing, this was the last thing they needed shoving down their throats. I wonder what passenger loadings are like on these services. Thin I should imagine.

dk1 · 17 Jul 2019

trebor79 said:
But MPs don't award franchises. With everything else GA are doing, this was the last thing they needed shoving down their throats. I wonder what passenger loadings are like on these services. Thin I should imagine.

09:00up/19:00dn are as expected very well loaded.

dk1 · 18 Jul 2019

Fault found during driver prep on Ni90 set on Crown Point (Norwich) this morning.

0900/1100 departures are cancelled at point of entry (CAPE'd)

Greater Anglia 2019 - What could possibly go wrong?

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