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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

Jordan Adam

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I'm not sure it's that unpopular - I quite agree. The layout is appalling with various size seats all over the place. Continental models are even worse... but this thread is about the UK....

Among enthusiasts not going "mad" over how "amazing" Citaro's are is normally seen as an unpopular opinion. Granted some of the older ones can sound nice, but i really just don't get all the hype over them.

Of course, AirCon is not remotely a gimmick, is it? It's the usual thread-hijacking personal preferences of the poster.

Indeed, it's not a gimmick. I can see the need for it in warmer climates. But in the UK it's just not practical.

Quite agree. I've just looked back through photos of Rome and I can't make out whether they have full AirCon or just cooling (the roof pods seem quite low for full AirCon, and it wasn't hot enough when I was there. The seats were uncomfortable too. A lot of people confuse air conditioning and air cooling anyway. My father has AirCon in his car... he almost never uses it because of the extra fuel it uses, much preferring to open the windows. In any case, full AirCon with regular stops is like opening the fridge door every minute for half an hour and expecting it to keep your food cold.

Likewise, although i most travel by bus. Whenever i'm in the car we very rarely use the Aircon. The simple fact is that opening the windows does the exact same job just as well without draining fuel. Obviously with a bigger vehicle that has a bigger A/C system the fuel drain is greater. Certainly with buses it's normally pretty easy to tell and AirCon and AirChill system apart, A/C tends to be much more substantial.

Regarding the Enviro500's here, turning the A/C off and replacing it by fitting hopper windows and the AirChill system has not only improved MPG but also performance as the power drain from the engine is much lower. Quite often with buses the issue with heat is not actually down to air circulation but rather poor insulation around the engine, this is particularly noticeable on buses with smaller engines.
 
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GusB

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Arguably there is over supply in the UK market between the 3 UK suppliers. ADL seem to be aggressively going for market share what with offering more "body on others chassis" to get them in with Lothian amongst others and have been doing well getting stronger representation in fleets where they might have been second or third choice. Optare have had a couple of good export orders to ofset their reduction in the UK domestic market and have a couple of Electric orders for the double decker. Wright seem vulnerable with a number of double deck body buyers switching to ADL and MCV, while the streetlites seem to get mixed reviews and have hardly troubled the E200 recently.
I think you make a good point here. In the UK there has been a trend towards more vertical integration in the last few years, which is fine if whoever you want to build your bus offers the desired options in engine/transmission etc. I suppose it was fine back in the day when large operators were in a position to place an order for X00 chassis from a given manufacturer, specify whether it had Gardner, Cummins, Leyland etc. engines and demand Voith, ZF or whatever transmissions, then specify which body you wanted built on top. There is definitely far less operator choice these days, and I think the move back towards "body on others chassis" is an attempt to redress this. With regard to coach operators, you have to more or less choose whether you want Volvo, Van Hool, Irizar etc., and have very little input into what powers that coach. For years the choice of many operators was the Volvo/Van Hool combination - whatever happened to that?

Seriously, would British bus operators use hopper windows instead of air-conditioning and single-glazing instead of double-glazing if money was no object? When I was a kid, even coaches had single-glazing but we now expect coaches to have double-glazing. We now have higher standards than we did in the 80s. I wouldn't buy a car without air-conditioning now and I expect a new train to have air-conditioning and double-glazing.
I recall when GRT introduced their "Advance" spec when I was just starting university. Compared with the elderly Atlanteans that were the mainstay of the Aberdeen fleet, they were a world apart. The Mercedes O.405s felt as if they were more solidly built (from a passenger perspective). At that point in time, aircon was something you only really found on premium coaches.

Some see aircon as a gimmick because we only see a few hot spells every year. While this year we don't seem to have the same sustained heatwave as we did last year, those hot spells seem to be getting warmer. It may be a "nice to have" option, but if we want to tempt people out of their cars then public transport has to at least try to provide a comfortable environment to travel in.
 

jammy36

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Whenever i'm in the car we very rarely use the Aircon. The simple fact is that opening the windows does the exact same job just as well without draining fuel.

Sorry, appreciate this is going off on a tangent, but this isn't always true. Unless you're doing low speed town driving it is actually more fuel efficient in a car to have windows up and the A/C on. At speeds above 35 - 40 mph, the increased drag from having the windows open causes a greater fuel drain than running the A/C.

Getting back to buses... I do find the design of some modern double deckers is focused more on aesthetics than passenger comfort. Older deckers commonly had hoppers on the upstairs windscreen, which gave excellent airflow into and along the vehicle. By comparison the large curved front screen of the E400 (original style), makes it feel like you're sitting in a greenhouse on a hot day. This is especially so where operators don't specify hoppers on the first set of curved windows.
 

radamfi

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Many bus operators have justifiably stated why they don’t forsee air-conditioning and sadly I agree with them. By the way, it isn’t just me that is stating this.

What's the surprise there? We know that bus companies in Britain can't afford expensive buses so the response from Nottingham City Transport is entirely predictable.

Incidentally, this isn't just a summer issue. Even in the middle of winter you can see hopper windows open. This is because some people feel too hot from the bus heating.

It may be a "nice to have" option, but if we want to tempt people out of their cars then public transport has to at least try to provide a comfortable environment to travel in.

That's the key here. The main point of buses should be to get people out of cars and therefore it is necessary to provide a car-like level of comfort.
 
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Speedbird96

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What's the surprise there? We know that bus companies in Britain can't afford expensive buses so the response from Nottingham City Transport is entirely predictable.

Incidentally, this isn't just a summer issue. Even in the middle of winter you can see hopper windows open. This is because some people feel too hot from the bus heating.

There is no surprise, many bus operators either operate with a small profit or at a loss. I use NCT as an example as they have been my local operator for years and you may think their response is predictable, but they have used air-conditioned buses before between 2008 to 2013 on one of their longest distance bus service and saw that their use was inefficient for their operations. Air-conditioning does not work for every operator hence their sporadic use across the UK.

Trent Barton used it as a major selling point when they received air-conditioned buses between 2007 to 2009 and even have notices on their buses to keep windows closed when it was switched on... However, that still didn't stop people from opening the windows anyway as some didn't find the air-conditioning that effective in keeping people cool; hence why they longer specify them on their new buses but do continue to feature double glazing on all of their new buses since 2003.

Again, it would be a nice luxury to have air-conditioning on all buses, I just don't think is a best use of money as our weather and climate is changeable, plus the rising cost of fares. This is coming from the fact I don't have the luxury of driving and cost is a big deciding factor for many passengers. I just don't see the problem with hopper windows which you are describing but that is just my opinion.

Indeed, it's not a gimmick. I can see the need for it in warmer climates. But in the UK it's just not practical.

I echo this view, definitely don't see air-conditioning as a gimmick; going to warmer cities like Hong Kong and Singapore where they go through huge spells of humid climate it is practical, I just don't see it being practical here where our climate is usually below average.

Some see aircon as a gimmick because we only see a few hot spells every year. While this year we don't seem to have the same sustained heatwave as we did last year, those hot spells seem to be getting warmer. It may be a "nice to have" option, but if we want to tempt people out of their cars then public transport has to at least try to provide a comfortable environment to travel in.

Think this is the reason why we are seeing a shift in operators specifying more useable amenities such as WiFi and USB charging points which is being adopted by most operators, but I do agree more needs to be done to attract more people out of cars.
 

radamfi

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Trent Barton used it as a major selling point when they received air-conditioned buses between 2007 to 2009 and even have notices on their buses to keep windows closed when it was switched on... However, that still didn't stop people from opening the windows anyway as some didn't find the air-conditioning that effective in keeping people cool; hence why they longer specify them on their new buses but do continue to feature double glazing on all of their new buses since 2003.

It doesn't make sense to provide passenger operated hopper windows on buses with air-conditioning. If hopper windows are used for emergency ventilation then the windows need to be controlled by the driver or the depot. We don't provide hopper windows on coaches and if the air-conditioning breaks then the roof hatch is used. Air-conditioning is usually very reliable these days.

Interesting to note that Trent Barton have consistently used double-glazing for so long. Double-glazing is arguably more appropriate for the British weather than in hotter countries so there is no climate excuse here. Trent Barton can afford this despite operating in the harsh deregulated environment. If they can do it, then others can.

I just don't see the problem with hopper windows which you are describing but that is just my opinion.

The problem is that passengers get a cold draught when hopper windows are open. This is most acute in winter. There is potential for arguments with your fellow passengers if you want to close the window but others don't. It is not unusual to get on an empty bus at 06:00 on a January morning when several of the hopper windows are open so the first thing I have to do is close all the windows. However, you do need to leave a hopper window open to avoid the bus steaming up. So you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. The choice is between being cold or being in a steamed up bus. A double-glazed bus without hopper windows avoids this issue.

Think this is the reason why we are seeing a shift in operators specifying more useable amenities such as WiFi and USB charging points which is being adopted by most operators, but I do agree more needs to be done to attract more people out of cars.

But these things are very cheap to supply so it is not a major achievement to provide them. Wi-Fi is hardly needed these days when almost everyone has their own data. I could maybe understand if people use bus Wi-Fi to do big downloads but operators often impose a minuscule data limit.
 

Jordan Adam

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Interesting to note that Trent Barton have consistently used double-glazing for so long. Double-glazing is arguably more appropriate for the British weather than in hotter countries so there is no climate excuse here. Trent Barton can afford this despite operating in the harsh deregulated environment. If they can do it, then others can.

You are aware these days single/double glazing is nothing to do with operator specification and simply just down to vehicle type. Of which if i recall correctly nothing on the market right now in the UK has double glazing.

The problem is that passengers get a cold draught when hopper windows are open. This is most acute in winter. There is potential for arguments with your fellow passengers if you want to close the window but others don't. It is not unusual to get on an empty bus at 06:00 on a January morning when several of the hopper windows are open so the first thing I have to do is close all the windows. However, you do need to leave a hopper window open to avoid the bus steaming up. So you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. The choice is between being cold or being in a steamed up bus. A double-glazed bus without hopper windows avoids this issue.

Well yes there would be a draught, that's sort of the point of fitting hopper windows. Having a double glazed bus doesn't always stop windows steaming up however, just like having AC doesn't. If there are passengers inside a bus on a cold day breathing then there's going to be steamed up windows regardless. Most passengers honestly don't care if the windows steam up anyway.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This is ever so slightly comical.

We are in a commercial environment and all the stuff like heavyweight chassis, air-con and bonded glazing is all very good but... it adds cost. It adds to the purchase price and, more importantly, it adds to the day to day running costs massively. That's why operators add stuff like wifi (which people do actually use if you bother to go on a commercial bus service) and USB charging.

So I ask the question..... WHO IS GOING TO PAY THE EXTRA?

Operators are struggling to cope with the current market issues, many of which are outside of their control. Local authorities haven't got a pot to capture excess fluids in. So, do people think there is an elasticity of demand in terms of price?

The main point of buses should be to get people out of cars and therefore it is necessary to provide a car-like level of comfort.

Now, I actually burst out laughing at this comment. I have, as have many, travelled to the continent and the "car like level of comfort" is not something that you see on the continent. Whether it's Berlin's MAN deckers, Renaults in Valencia or Citaros in Reykjavik, every single one of them had the urban 90s style of seating - some fabric, no cushioning, stretched across a plastic base. Oh, and because of the number of doors etc, a very low number of actual seats anyway so you are more likely to be a standee. Car like comfort........ you're having a giraffe!
 

radamfi

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You are aware these days single/double glazing is nothing to do with operator specification and simply just down to vehicle type. Of which if i recall correctly nothing on the market right now in the UK has double glazing.

I thought you just said that Trent Barton have only bought double-glazing since 2003?

Having a double glazed bus doesn't always stop windows steaming up however, just like having AC doesn't. If there are passengers inside a bus on a cold day breathing then there's going to be steamed up windows regardless. Most passengers honestly don't care if the windows steam up anyway.

I'm sorry, I don't believe I've ever been on a steamed up double-glazed vehicle, whether it is a bus, coach or train, unless there is some kind of malfunction with the window.
 

radamfi

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So I ask the question..... WHO IS GOING TO PAY THE EXTRA?

In Britain operators can't afford it. Lots of operators outside the UK can. There is no mystery or debate here. That doesn't mean I can't state that double-glazing and air-conditioning are preferable.

Bizarrely, though, Trent Barton seem to be an outlier in so many ways. Not only can they afford double-glazing, they can also afford to implement touch-in touch-out contactless. What is so special about them?
 

Jordan Adam

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I thought you just said that Trent Barton have only bought double-glazing since 2003?

I'd like to know where i said that?.... As i most certainly did not.

Might i also add that are you perhaps getting bonded glazing and double glazing mixed up? As not that many vehicles in the Trent Barton fleet have double glazing. All their E200MMC's for example are single glazed as double glazing isn't an option

I'm sorry, I don't believe I've ever been on a steamed up double-glazed vehicle, whether it is a bus, coach or train, unless there is some kind of malfunction with the window.

I have many times, all it really takes is cold temperatures outside, moisture on the floor and some passengers breathing.
 

radamfi

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I'd like to know where i said that?.... As i most certainly did not.

Apologies, Speedbird96 posted that.

Might i also add that are you perhaps getting bonded glazing and double glazing mixed up? As not that many vehicles in the Trent Barton fleet have double glazing. All their E200MMC's for example are single glazed as double glazing isn't an option

I was just going off what Speedbird96 said. I must admit it did surprise me.
 

Speedbird96

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You are aware these days single/double glazing is nothing to do with operator specification and simply just down to vehicle type. Of which if i recall correctly nothing on the market right now in the UK has double glazing.

I am fairly certain that Trent Barton’s Enviro200MMCs are double-glazed due to their bonded glazing being double thickness, having travelled on them regularly on Mainline. It is a feature they have specified and have often promoted.

If it’s the case that it is never specified I do apologise.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In Britain operators can't afford it. Lots of operators outside the UK can. There is no mystery or debate here. That doesn't mean I can't state that double-glazing and air-conditioning are preferable.

Bizarrely, though, Trent Barton seem to be an outlier in so many ways. Not only can they afford double-glazing, they can also afford to implement touch-in touch-out contactless. What is so special about them?
Firstly, to cover off TB.... They are very different and, correct me, but haven’t they been buying ask e200mmc with those fripperies such as super fast WiFi and USB ports? Of course, they led the way in many ways, offloading large parts of their network to low cost operation to focus on core corridors/products. Can’t recall if the mmcs have air conditioning so if someone can advise?

As for touch in.... what does that have to do with passenger comfort. Again, it’s a different business case and one that has no effect on the ongoing cost of physical operation (e.g. fuel, parts).

I noticed you failed to answer the central point. Bus companies on the continent will respond to a tender. The spec will be defined and so the vehicle purchase and running cost is built into the tender price. The purchasing authority funds it.

Given that we can’t fund evening or rural buses nor concessionary passes, and even in London they can’t maintain the network, I’m still intrigued to know how these higher spec vehicles will be funded.
 

radamfi

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Firstly, to cover off TB.... They are very different and, correct me, but haven’t they been buying ask e200mmc with those fripperies such as super fast WiFi and USB ports?

I don't object to operators providing Wi-Fi and USB charging, but it isn't a big deal as it is easily affordable.

As for touch in.... what does that have to do with passenger comfort. Again, it’s a different business case and one that has no effect on the ongoing cost of physical operation (e.g. fuel, parts).

It's got nothing to do with comfort but it is to do with money. I was pointing out that Trent Barton appear to be able to splash the cash on "luxuries" which are supposed to be unaffordable in Britain, never mind the deregulated part of Britain.

I noticed you failed to answer the central point. Bus companies on the continent will respond to a tender. The spec will be defined and so the vehicle purchase and running cost is built into the tender price. The purchasing authority funds it.

Given that we can’t fund evening or rural buses nor concessionary passes, and even in London they can’t maintain the network, I’m still intrigued to know how these higher spec vehicles will be funded.

I've already said, in Britain they can't be funded. What more do you want me to say?
 

Swanny200

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As has been said earlier, a lot of our bus fleets now are built to a budget, the streetlites especially to me are reminiscent of the 80's when the breadvans were brought in as a cheap version of getting people from A to B, I understand why wifi and usb are important for most passengers as phones need charged and facebook/twitter etc... always need updated and are prevalent on a lot of the newer stock that we are seeing nowadays it is not seen as a premium addition anymore as it was a few years ago when bus groups were doing premium routes like Gold or Max.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I don't object to operators providing Wi-Fi and USB charging, but it isn't a big deal as it is easily affordable.



It's got nothing to do with comfort but it is to do with money. I was pointing out that Trent Barton appear to be able to splash the cash on "luxuries" which are supposed to be unaffordable in Britain, never mind the deregulated part of Britain.



I've already said, in Britain they can't be funded. What more do you want me to say?

You DID say that but then immediately linked it with an example of “if they can do it....” Also, it’s NOT that operators outside the U.K. can afford it...they are working to a spec that the tendering authority is funding.

TB have clearly looked at tap in/tap out and their CBA suggests that there is some tangible benefit. Everyone else have a different opinion.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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As has been said earlier, a lot of our bus fleets now are built to a budget, the streetlites especially to me are reminiscent of the 80's when the breadvans were brought in as a cheap version of getting people from A to B, I understand why wifi and usb are important for most passengers as phones need charged and facebook/twitter etc... always need updated and are prevalent on a lot of the newer stock that we are seeing nowadays it is not seen as a premium addition anymore as it was a few years ago when bus groups were doing premium routes like Gold or Max.
You’re right though a StreetLite is still better than a Bristol LH or Dodge S56.

You’re also right that we’re now approaching a point where what was once special (USBs or WiFi) is now expected.
 

F Great Eastern

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Thing with the likes of Neoplan, Setra and the likes, they all produce some lovely bodies and used to (in the coach sense) be regarded as a premium brand then Setra pulled out of the RHD coach sector for the UK and Neoplan apart from the one body hasn't made inroads into the UK for a while, the also rans of Berkhof and Jonckheere have also pulled out from a coach sense apart from Berkhof with a few of their Long distance double deck coaches.

Jonckheere are now part of VDL, the later of which who went on a buying spree of a few other manufacturers in the past, such as Berkhof and Bova for example.

The most well known product of VDL these days is the Futura, which is an integral vehicle with the idea of taking the cheapness and decent profit margins and savings by being an integral of the Berkhof/Synergy and some of the styling of the Jonckheere and a little bit of additional flair. The Futura was intended to replace both the higher end Jonckheere JHV and the lower end Berkhof being a middle ground between the two. Unfortunately what you've got is a poor quality vehicle, with poor build quality that looks fairly nice.

The idea was that the JHV/SHV on Volvo chassis would be retired as it was expected that the premium customers would take a high spec version of the integral Futura. However this did not happen, following poor reviews for the Futura and in the end Volvo incentivised VDL to adapt the JHV/SHV product for the Volvo B11R for what is now the facelifted Jonckheere JHV2/SHV2 as Volvo considered the Jonckheere / Volvo combination as key to their coach chassis market share.

However there is likely to be no long term future for Jonckheere as a body on chassis builder for Volvo products as the profit margins on such vehicles is quite a bit less than the integral market and the facelifted JHV2/SHV2 was only an updated version of a former product as the result of Volvo themselves putting in time and money into supporting through fear of losing chassis market share.

Mercedes seem to have issues selling enough of the new models in this country as everyone seems to be preferring Wright, ADL or Optare, as for engines I remember a lot of the really early MAN stuff being fairly decent but then it went downhill fairly rapidly and they were certainly nowhere in the same regard as the much renowned and lauded Volvo B10.

Mercedes really doesn't seem interested in adapting many of their vehicles for the UK market. the Citaro and Tourismo serve as a one size fits all adaption to underpin their offering in UK, often covering prospective uses that there are specific products for elsewhere.

Mercedes Bus offerings in Western Europe are generally of a higher specification than we have here in the UK and can be considered premium vehicles so are not attractive from a price point of view. The Citaro is the best selling bus in the last decade or two Europe wide. Lately Mercedes have been willing to take the brand a little 'downmarket' by building lower spec interiors for the UK Market than they would have traditionally. Mainland Europe also has the Conecto, which is essentially cut down, version of the Citaro, aimed mostly at Central and Eastern Europe, which has never been converted to right hand drive. There's also the CapaCity, which is an ultra long articulated Citaro.

On the subject of Coaches, the Mercedes range is poorly represented in the UK, you only really have the Tourismo two axle or three axle and nothing else. Again Mercedes have offered some lower range specifications in the UK than traditionally offered elsewhere to make it a one size fits most coach. The Setra Range had three levels, TopClass (best of the best), ComfortClass (upper mid range / lower high end) and Multi-Class (buses, lower line coaches) and a lot more sophisticated options that the Tourismo doesn't have. We also haven't seen the lower end Intouro or Travego which are offered in Europe.
 

F Great Eastern

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Obviously ADL and Wright build cheap, uncomfortable buses, but who's fault is that? They just build what the client wants. Yes, the Lion's City is a very nice bus. Personally I have found that after getting used to riding in such comfort on those and other quality heavyweight vehicles, I have little interest in riding in what passes for a bus in the UK.

ADL has always been low quality but Wright-bodied Volvos used to be reasonably comfortable, especially the single deckers that First used to buy in bulk. But the Streetlite is quite an abomination.
.

If Wright carried on building vehicles the quality of the original Eclipse and Gemini they'd be dead as a company right now unfortunately. Those vehicles were some of the best ever built but the market moved on and ADL were able to build vehicles that weighed a lot less, was far more efficient on fuel and cost less to run. The fact was that the original Gemini and Eclipse vehicles started to become very uncompetitive in running costs and Wright had to adapt or die.

The fact that ADL and Stagecoach had ownership links meant that as a company ADL could spend money on research and development and be reasonably assured of getting a big order right from the off. Also if you were going into competition with a Stagecoach operator with a heavyweight Gemini for all it's excellent build quality up against their lightweight rattly Enviro, there would only be one winner and it wouldn't be the better built bus.

The fact that Alexander Dennis has now been sold can only be a positive move for the bus industry in the UK, having Stagecoach as by far the biggest bus operator in the UK also having their hand in Alexander Dennis put all other manufacturers at a disadvantage.
 

F Great Eastern

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Unpopular opinion i know, but the Citaro is highly overrated and highly overpriced. The Interior layout for a start is appalling and not very ergonomic with the random seat over the rear wheel arch that sits miles above the rest etc.

As stated previously the Citaro in the UK is not the same as the Citaro in the rest of Europe, the UK ones, especially those in the last few years, are of a spec Mercedes previously didn't offer but they have done so to pick up more orders. The problem with the UK Citaro is it's trying to be all things to all people and a jack of all trades whereas in Europe Mercedes have different versions of the Citaro and the Conecto but in the UK it's a single version that has different interiors.

Urban 90 seats... Easily the most hated seat to ever feature in a bus in the UK in recent times! Many rusty old BMC Falcon's had them.

Some providers have retro-fitted them with better and thicker cushions to make them not so bad. Whilst I agree that the seats are far from comfortable they were designed for durability and robustness and however much you hate them, they are easily the most robust seat I've seen.
 

Swanny200

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The Bova has always looked really nice and stylish which has evolved well over the years, I do wonder that with the advent of Hydrogen buses whether we will see more Van Hool (the type that Aberdeen currently have) or Irizar bus types entering the UK market, I know that converting LHD to RHD for a small amount of buses are problematic, if a bus company wanted a fleet of 100 or 200 buses then it might be worthwhile but for an order of 10 or so might not be, the other issue is we are not at a time anymore when the likes of Irizar could open a factory in the UK (like Hitachi have done for trains) in the anticipation for orders, the only reason you would put a factory here would be to build RHD models, you wouldn't put a factory here to churn out loads of buses to then send back across the channel to another country.

The ADL/Stagecoach links have always been a bit odd, some of their wares have been primarily for Stagecoach use, the low floor coach that Stagecoach are using on the East Scotland routes for instance that I have not seen anyone else take up, or the Panorama which apart from the odd couple of private operators seems to have built with Stagecoach in mind, the Interdeck too primarily for Megabus, now they do not have that link, it is interesting to see how their products might change to suit everyone.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Bova can't be any worse than some of the VDL Berkhof Axials, some of which have suffered with serious rust problems meaning they had to be withdrawn after 6 years service for corrosion repairs and a couple of years later the same problem happened again and some are off service once more.

Some operators have got rid of them pretty quickly as well, whilst some have apparently been scrapped before they reach double figures of years in service. Ask a Bus Eireann driver what they think of them, unreliable and literally decaying away.
 
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Swanny200

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Bova can't be any worse than some of the Berkhof Axials, some of which have suffered with serious rust problems meaning they had to be withdrawn after 6 years service for corrosion repairs and a couple of years later the same problem happened again and some are off service once more.

Some operators have got rid of them pretty quickly as well, whilst some have apparently been scrapped before they reach double figures of years in service. Ask a Bus Eireann driver what they think of them, unreliable and literally decaying away.

You could also add Caetano into the mix as well, I know a guy who says the Levante's are really bad in comparison to their earlier stuff, but NX are still having them made to spec, it isn't like the early days when Plaxton had the market share on NX.
 

Tetchytyke

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12 Sep 2013
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Isle of Man
A lot of it is really down to spec. The late-90s Renowns that First had didn't steam up. Although single glazed, they had airflow over all the windows from air vents in the roof fascia. But even that costs money, so you don't see it in more modern Wrights.

The Citaro ride quality is great, but the seating layout is ridiculous for RHD.

As for the Omnicity, the single deckers are good and are still running well. Up here the Go-Ahead ones came with air con but that got disabled a long time ago. But the integral decker was a bit of a car crash of a bus. The East Lancs one wasn't much better.
 

F Great Eastern

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2 Apr 2009
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3,589
Location
East Anglia
The Citaro ride quality is great, but the seating layout is ridiculous for RHD.

Not surprising when they bus was designed to be a LHD, converting a RHD to a LHD would be hard as well without some kind of compromises.

As for the Omnicity, the single deckers are good and are still running well. Up here the Go-Ahead ones came with air con but that got disabled a long time ago. But the integral decker was a bit of a car crash of a bus. The East Lancs one wasn't much better.

Couple of operators in East Anglia have had both the Ominicity integral from Scania and the East Lancs OmniDekka built on Scania chassis (essentially a Myllennium Vyking with a Scania lower front/back ends on a Scania chassis) and they rate the East Lancs and Scania combination higher for build quality than the Scania integral, both in terms of durability and build quality.

One operator in Suffolk who operates what must be half a dozen of them these days, took on two ex demo units direct from Scania that were in perfect shape at time of acquiring them and after too long replaced them with older Omnidekkas, since the newer vehicles were constantly having bodywork issues, vibrations and rattles developing at less than a year old.

MCV are picking up the kind of work that East Lancs used to now.
 

kevjs

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2013
Messages
402
When NCT had the Optare Versas ... was often broken

Ah, those things really were rubbish weren't they - our route was supposed to have the rattly Versas (they made the Cross Country Turbostars sound like they were well put together in comparison) but more often than not something else was subbing...
That rattling was so bad I ended up switching to cycling to work - IIRC it was during the Versa times that the route dropped out the Go2 brand and went from every 10 to every 12 minutes (the Versa predecessors always used to be rammed, as did the Versa's on introduction, but passenger usage did noticeably decline over those five years and IME hasn't recovered)

The Solo's they replaced them with were less modern looking but didn't sound like they were falling to bits.

In Britain operators can't afford it. Lots of operators outside the UK can. There is no mystery or debate here. That doesn't mean I can't state that double-glazing and air-conditioning are preferable.

Bizarrely, though, Trent Barton seem to be an outlier in so many ways. Not only can they afford double-glazing, they can also afford to implement touch-in touch-out contactless. What is so special about them?

Their major competitor is still majority publicly owned by the City Council and was the first operator in the UK to support contactless (note here I'm not talking the debit card variant) - so to keep up with them while operating buses exclusively on longer distance journeys you need to do something to keep up. Coupled with that you have the city with the fastest growing bus passenger usage outside of London and a city council that actually bothers investing in the bus infrastructure (Real time displays for around 15 years, a huge expansion of bus lanes and pus priority across the city and removing general motor traffic from the city centre). The DFT and City Council have paid to roll out proper-Contactless payments across the city transport network this year too.

As for WiFi and USB - ISTR NCT saying on their social feeds this was funded by advertising when you use the onboard WiFi so is effectivly a freebie
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,529
Location
Aberdeen
A lot of it is really down to spec. The late-90s Renowns that First had didn't steam up. Although single glazed, they had airflow over all the windows from air vents in the roof fascia. But even that costs money, so you don't see it in more modern Wrights.

As for the Omnicity, the single deckers are good and are still running well. Up here the Go-Ahead ones came with air con but that got disabled a long time ago. But the integral decker was a bit of a car crash of a bus. The East Lancs one wasn't much better.

First spec Renown's have double glazing, they will still steam up if it's moist enough inside. Most (albeit not all) Streetlite's also have the airflow system you mention, i suspect the issue on the Streetlite is more heat rising and getting trapped due to the arch shape internal roof.

The Omnidekka & Omnicity DD were appalling products. Especially in terms of seating layout with that stupid extra row crammed in downstairs at the back.
 

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